Fatmat is a hoax......

[aznboi3644 2]

Steve you are saying Fatmat is going to have the thickest mat in the industry??

So is it going to be thicker than 120 mils???

http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_i...products_id=572

[Rudeboy 152]

Steve you are saying Fatmat is going to have the thickest mat in the industry??

So is it going to be thicker than 120 mils???

http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_i...products_id=572

... and, why would you want the thickest? Thickness is the least relevant metric I can think of. To the extent that a sound deadener's effectiveness comes from adding mass to a panel, you want density instead of thickness - add the most mass possible in the least amount of space.

To the extent that CLVED is the functional mechanism you actually want a thinner adhesive and thicker foil - the ideal being something like a 2:1 foil:adhesive ratio. This becomes impractical very quickly since you need to be able to cut and bend the stuff.

The only way I can imagine thickness being a virtue is if you start talking about thickness that matches up to wavelengths, so the difference here between 60 and 120 mils is only going to apply to a small slice of the spectrum. I've never seen any benefits described for a relationship like this even if that were the thinking behind claiming thickness as a selling point.

Ironically, it is FatMat that pushed the idea of thicker automatically being better when talking about their Rattlepad. He may be designing products based on incompletely vetted marketing hype from the previous owners.

[Mike P. 0]

Got an email back from Steve. Posting the MSDS sheet for FatMat is not going to happen. I was informed that it is for employees only, thier current consumer products are not hazardous when used as intended, additional information regarding Hazard Communication can be found at www.osha.gov, and this is probably why you don't see the other manufactures of sound deadening supplying them. I tried.

[Rudeboy 152]

Got an email back from Steve. Posting the MSDS sheet for FatMat is not going to happen. I was informed that it is for employees only, thier current consumer products are not hazardous when used as intended, additional information regarding Hazard Communication can be found at www.osha.gov, and this is probably why you don't see the other manufactures of sound deadening supplying them. I tried.

I'm really not trying to be smart ass here, but

current consumer products are not hazardous when used as intended

doesn't really get to the issue. These products are rebadged roofing membranes or repair products. By definition they are not being used as intended. There is considerable controversy over the toxicity of asphalt exposure in open spaces, with the asphalt industry seeming to be the only ones insisting that it is safe under those conditions.

Think we can assume that the MSDS for FatMat is the MSDS for Peel & Seal? - I guess that is what you are looking for.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

Got an email back from Steve. Posting the MSDS sheet for FatMat is not going to happen. I was informed that it is for employees only, thier current consumer products are not hazardous when used as intended, additional information regarding Hazard Communication can be found at www.osha.gov, and this is probably why you don't see the other manufactures of sound deadening supplying them. I tried.

If you purchase the Fatmat and ASK for an MSDS sheet, they have to provide one by law. No way around that.

[Rudeboy 152]

If you purchase the Fatmat and ASK for an MSDS sheet, they have to provide one by law. No way around that.

Interesting. Do you have to ask at the time of purchase or can you purchase first and ask later. I ask because if the former is the case they can get around it by canceling your order and refunding your money - as they did in my case.

It's sort of a moot point now. While SteveFatMat hasn't actually stated that FatMat is asphalt, he has said it isn't butyl, has removed the word from the sites and says nobody will claim it is butyl over the phone. That was my primary argument with them. The facts about how asphalt performs as a sound deadener, how stable it is, etc. speak for themselves and are the reasons the word "butyl" was put on the FatMat Web site in the first place. The exaggerated claims represent a battle we can't win. If they stick to the policy of not pretending FatMat is butyl, I'd expect the product to disappear pretty quickly because;

1. If you are absolutely determined to use asphalt you can buy it at Home Depot less expensively
   
2. You will get better results using much less butyl so it isn't even a useful compromise for economy
   
3. FatMat's reputation is going to be a millstone around the neck of anybody who tries to use it
   

[Mike P. 0]

Think we can assume that the MSDS for FatMat is the MSDS for Peel & Seal? - I guess that is what you are looking for.

Steve said that FatMat was a "rubberized mastic". I was curious what the MSDS would say.

[Rudeboy 152]

Steve said that FatMat was a "rubberized mastic". I was curious what the MSDS would say.

I've Googled that to death. "Mastic" almost always refers to asphalt AKA bitumen. All of these asphaltic products have rubber compounds added to stabilize the asphalt. I give him points for putting a stop to the blatant lie, but unless we hear more from him, he loses some for choosing an indirect alternative. Still not to the "this is what it is and we are proud of it" level that would be nice to see.

A little history might help. Back in the old days, competitors did extreme things like filling their vehicle's voids with concrete and applying tar to the vertical surfaces. They were willing to sacrifice any possible resale value for their goals. Dynamic Control came out with some products that are primitive by today's standards but were a big step up from home brewed solutions. After market sound deadening started to become mainstream. Many people, including Chris and Tammy McDaniel (not 100% sure on the names of this couple, but too lazy to confirm right now) wanted a piece of this market. They and others, like Elemental Designs, discovered that roofing products like Peel & Seal not only added mass to a panel, the fol protective layer increased their effectiveness somewhat and made them look like the newer products coming from Dynamic Control. This was their entire business model - buy Peel & Seal, wildly exaggerate it's capabilities and give it a new name.

This also explains some of the almost funny anachronisms in the market. You can look at FatMat's site right now and see a description of its 1mil acrylic pressure sensitive adhesive. No such thing. The manufacturing process for these adhesive/foil laminates makes that impossible. Dynamat Original had a 1 mil acrylic PSA. They just appropriated that "feature" for their own use and it remains there to this day.

When Dynamat Xtreme - butyl adhesive/foil laminate came out, it really moved this product sector into the mainstream. There was no longer any downside to sound deadening a vehicle. The other sellers needed to make a choice - either switch to the vastly superior but much more expensive butyl adhesive, stick with asphalt and pretend it was good or stick with asphalt and pretend it was butyl. Interestingly, the existence of asphalt products applied downward pressure on the prices of butyl products and the existence of butyl products allowed for greater markup of asphalt products. Profit margins are higher for the much cheaper asphalt mats and that is why some of these companies go to great lengths to either outright misstate the composition - FatMat on the Web site and ED when Ben Milne posted to forums, or use confusing terms that implied butyl - ED on their Web site.

That's why this such a big deal and why I can be such a dick about it. You'll notice that none of these companies use deceptive terms if they also sell butyl products so it isn't just a case of generally imprecise tendencies. You'll also notice that the upstanding companies are very precise and tend to understate specs such as weight, thickness and heat tolerance. Unfortunately, people shouldn't have to make a study of this to find themselves a decent product.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

I am glad this topic came back to positive and productive. Looks like we are all learning on this, and it is good to have experts in the field such as Sean and Don.

[SteveFatMat 0]

Don: The sound deadener domain was transferred to me after Sept.

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)

Domain Name: SOUNDDEADENER.COM

Created on: 16-Feb-03

Expires on: 16-Feb-08

Last Updated on: 24-Oct-05 I called GoDaddy They said this field represents the last time the Domain Name was renewed. Has nothing to do with the transfer into my name. So looks like it was going to expire in Feb 16 so I renewed it today. They said within 24 hours that field (Last Updated on:) should change to around today or tomorrows date. Please stop beating a dead horse and calling me a liar! Oh by the way sorry for the type O it was like 11:00 when I typed that and I was beat tired and you called me out on that; I don

[Tirefryr 1,742]

If you purchase the Fatmat and ASK for an MSDS sheet, they have to provide one by law. No way around that.

Interesting. Do you have to ask at the time of purchase or can you purchase first and ask later. I ask because if the former is the case they can get around it by canceling your order and refunding your money - as they did in my case.

It's sort of a moot point now. While SteveFatMat hasn't actually stated that FatMat is asphalt, he has said it isn't butyl, has removed the word from the sites and says nobody will claim it is butyl over the phone. That was my primary argument with them. The facts about how asphalt performs as a sound deadener, how stable it is, etc. speak for themselves and are the reasons the word "butyl" was put on the FatMat Web site in the first place. The exaggerated claims represent a battle we can't win. If they stick to the policy of not pretending FatMat is butyl, I'd expect the product to disappear pretty quickly because;

1. If you are absolutely determined to use asphalt you can buy it at Home Depot less expensively
   
2. You will get better results using much less butyl so it isn't even a useful compromise for economy
   
3. FatMat's reputation is going to be a millstone around the neck of anybody who tries to use it
   

I would ask at the time of purchase just to make it easier. In your case, you'd have never gotten the product, so therefore no need for the MSDS sheet. It is federal law that if you ask for it, they have to provide it, IF you purchase the item. Certain substances HAVE to ship with them, but I think that's only for the most hazardous of items and commercial use.

[Rudeboy 152]

Steve,

I'm not going to beat a dead horse. I don't know what typo you are upset about. The "Last Updated" date on a whois query has nothing to with renewals unless that was the activity that caused the registration data to change. It is updated every time any part of the registration data is "updated". Is it possible that a fully automated field like this could be populated with incorrect data? Sure.

You aren't going to use the word asphalt and that's your prerogative. Not exactly the new openness you are proclaiming. Sorry if my pointing out the lies on your Web site and being told by your phone contact folks offends you in some way, but the "I'm a good guy and you're an asshat" approach isn't doing a lot to rehabilitate the FatMat name.

Your tests show that FatMat is great stuff, but any details must be top secret. FatMat's success has been based entirely on deception. Your magic tests - done in a lab, not a kitchen! - don't encourage me that this has changed. Good luck to you, but don't expect people to line up to be kicked in the teeth. All I see is marketing hype with no substantiation and an apparent assumption that we are too stupid to know the difference.

[Rudeboy 152]

I just want to do a brief summary of my final thoughts on this thread. At some point it became too personal and I apologize to all for my role in that.

FatMat went out of business and seems to have have screwed at least a few people on its way out. It also screwed quite a few people during the last year or two of existence by be dishonest about the composition of its product.

SteveFatMat is now in charge. It certainly looks like he is a roofing materials supplier and I'm sure he knows a great deal about which roofing product is appropriate for which roofing application. The fact that he is selling roofing materials for automotive sound deadening doesn't imply he knows this application. Telling my I am wrong is one thing - and it happens all the time - but just saying it is far different that explaining or even suggesting why or how.

His assertion that there are good and bad examples of product made from a variety of raw materials is accurate but it doesn't apply to this discussion. We have to assume that FatMat is rubberized asphalt since he has been very careful both not to say that it is and not to say that it is anything else. As useful as it may be for roofing and roads, asphalt is fundamentally unsuitable for sound deadening.

Durability is a significant issue, regardless of quality. The interior of a car and its vertical and inverted surfaces are too hostile to rely on the adhesive qualities of asphalt. Sellers will always claim user error when the product fails, but I have seen no correlation between the care taken in application and the success of the project. I urge anyone who is uncertain about this claim to contact sundownz. He used to believe that application technique could produce a stable installation and by his description was almost compulsive about the care he took. He has changed his mind.

Even if durability wasn't a problem, asphalt has several other problems. THe most important for our purposes is its non-elasticity. One of the ways vibration dampers dissipate energy is by deforming in reaction to the wave and then returning to its resting state, pulling back against the energy. This is the conversion to heat you hear about. Asphalt will deform in a much narrower temperature range than butyl, but it will not return to its original state - much less effective.

I can't prove this yet, but through a great deal of hands on experience, I am absolutely convinced that butyl sound deadeners are so much more effective than asphalt that there is not reason at all to even consider using asphalt. Buying a smaller quantity of butyl mat with a decent foil facing and spreading it out will work as well or better than 2 o 3 times as much asphalt - there is just no reason to take the risks of asphalt.

My initial battle with FatMat was bitter because they were lying about it being butyl. I'm glad that has been resolved. That doesn't make it a better sound deadener now that we are certain it is asphalt. I'm sure most of you noticed that SteveFatMat never said that FatMat wasn't Peal & Seal. Whether or nto it is that brand of product manufactured by MFM, it is indistinguishable from Peel & Seal. You'll also notice that he never even said. let alone provided any evidence that FatMat was in any way better as a sound deadener than Peel & Seal. Even if you think I am full of crap and have some irrational grudge or bizarre ulterior motive, if you are determined to use an asphalt product in your car, don't be a sucker - just go to Home Depot or the local roofing supply house.

Sorry again that this got out of hand. I may have set a low standard for proof, but that just makes it easy for those who are trying to make money in this market to exceed my standard and educate the consumer about how and where their product works relative to the competition. SteveFatMat hasn't come close to that.

[creatormass 1]

I used to do work with hazmat materials and chemicals, and from what I remember MSDS sheets had to be shipped with hazardous chemicals, and only with the initial order of regular non-hazardous chemicals. If you request a copy of it they have to provide you with a copy. But I've never heard of suppling a MSDS sheet for something that wasn't a liquid, gas or powder chemical. It dosen't make any sense to me that you would need one or even have one available for a sound deadening mat. So many things are made with chemicals, but you don't see MSDS sheets coming with packages of styrofoam coffee cups and those are made with chemicals.

[Rudeboy 152]

I used to do work with hazmat materials and chemicals, and from what I remember MSDS sheets had to be shipped with hazardous chemicals, and only with the initial order of regular non-hazardous chemicals. If you request a copy of it they have to provide you with a copy. But I've never heard of suppling a MSDS sheet for something that wasn't a liquid, gas or powder chemical. It dosen't make any sense to me that you would need one or even have one available for a sound deadening mat. So many things are made with chemicals, but you don't see MSDS sheets coming with packages of styrofoam coffee cups and those are made with chemicals.

That may be true. Interestingly, when exactly the same products are sold for roofing use, the MSDS is freely distributed.

[creatormass 1]

Pretty sweet, I ordered 100 sq feet of Fatmat on Monday and got it in today, only a couple days, no bad. Got it from an Ebay company called Noise-Killers, not from FatMat.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Tell us how it works out.

[johnecon2001 82]

Pretty sweet, I ordered 100 sq feet of Fatmat on Monday and got it in today, only a couple days, no bad. Got it from an Ebay company called Noise-Killers, not from FatMat.

Noise-Killers is FatMat.

[creatormass 1]

Pretty sweet, I ordered 100 sq feet of Fatmat on Monday and got it in today, only a couple days, no bad. Got it from an Ebay company called Noise-Killers, not from FatMat.

Noise-Killers is FatMat.

Cool, then I guess I have no problems with them. I wanted to order it from the fatmat website but I've heard too many complaints about them in the fast few months so I decided against it. Just too bad they didn't have any of the Rattletrap in the Ebay store.

[ANeonRider 3]

no no, he means that Noise-Killers & FatMat are identical... same owner, same warehouse, same everything.

[shizzzon 461]

Wow, this thread is shocking to me.

I thought Fatmat was a good brand....

I had ordered 100sq ft of Fatmat 3yrs ago of their regular stuff and loved it. 3 layers of it everywhere in this trunked car i had, it virtually stopped all rattles but whole car was completely metal so it was hard.

Now, i ordered 100sq ft of rattle trap a few months ago and installing 3 layers of it everywhere i put it at.

When i run out of it, i had planned on ordering more. I do not know the technical this or that and why it's important on what material is used, but should i switch?

[saltybeanbag 0]

project car me and a friend are working on is all fatmat, worked good. he ordered it and didnt have any issues. rollers, razors all came (junky but did the job) and it was packed pretty good. i do recall it being very expensive but he ordered like 200 sq ft.

[///M5 2,833]

Wow, this thread is shocking to me.

I thought Fatmat was a good brand....

I had ordered 100sq ft of Fatmat 3yrs ago of their regular stuff and loved it. 3 layers of it everywhere in this trunked car i had, it virtually stopped all rattles but whole car was completely metal so it was hard.

Now, i ordered 100sq ft of rattle trap a few months ago and installing 3 layers of it everywhere i put it at.

When i run out of it, i had planned on ordering more. I do not know the technical this or that and why it's important on what material is used, but should i switch?

Raamat or SecondSkin are the only two logical choices at the moment.

[shizzzon 461]

Wow again, hehe, just got done researchin secondskin, they appear like the "gods of deadening".

I'm gonna contact them this week, hopefully tomorrow, there stuff is a little pricey but I gotta pay for what i want.

It looks like I may be payin somewhere around $1,000 to sound deaden my scion tc but i'll see what they say.

I'm gonna have 3 12" Fi Qs back there with 3 1,500w amps and if anyone has seen the Tc hatch space, who knows how much rattle that's gonna make.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Wow again, hehe, just got done researchin secondskin, they appear like the "gods of deadening".

I'm gonna contact them this week, hopefully tomorrow, there stuff is a little pricey but I gotta pay for what i want.

It looks like I may be payin somewhere around $1,000 to sound deaden my scion tc but i'll see what they say.

I'm gonna have 3 12" Fi Qs back there with 3 1,500w amps and if anyone has seen the Tc hatch space, who knows how much rattle that's gonna make.

With that much potential output in a Scion, it is worth the extra sound deadening.