In Need of HT Speakers

[Impious 1,476]

Finally got around to getting a receiver. Pioneer VSX-816. It's cheap(er) and does everything I'll need....full preamp outputs and good internal power.

Now I need some speakers for HT duty.

Been eyeing the Dayton 8. The things that have my interest on them are that the Dayton 8 is supposed to have good midbass and LFE, and sound pretty decent aswell.........and ofcourse the price as it would be around $200 total to build.

Likewise, going this route would allow me to use already designed plans and speakers from the same model line for the surround and center channels such as the Dayton budget 2-way or Dayton II for the surround channels and the Dayton III for the center as designed by Speakerbuilder.net

This would provide a cost effective means of full surround (should I decide to actually do an entire surround system) aswell as good "voice matching" of all of the speakers given they all utilize the Dayton Classics.

My main "problem" is that the D8 is nominal 4ohms and the receiver isn't technically rated down to 4ohms. I've e-mailed Pioneer about this before and their response was something to the effect of "you'll be fine as long as the speakers have a sensitivity over 90db"....with which I'm guessing they are implying that I'll be fine as long as I don't drive the amp overly hard.

Anyways.....if you're still reading.....I'm looking for either input on the above and also other suggestions that fit within the same general price range. Good midbass and LFE is a must as I don't know when I'll add a sub. I'm willing to sacrifice a smidge of midrange clarity for the benefit of midbass/LFE as I'm not looking for anything audiophile grade....just want to enhance movie watching a bit and have something decent to listen to tunes on.

If I DIY I want plans that are already available...I don't really want to design the thing from scratch (too time consuming). However, if anyone can think of any readily-available pre-built options in the same general price range (used is fine) that would be great aswell as it would save the headache of building the speakers. I was bidding on some JBL HLS series on egay that were pretty local to me (no shipping expense) but some pucker out bid me at literally the last second. I figure the drivers are probably in the same price/performance range and the design couldn't be much worse than a DIY of the same relative expense.....and it would have saved me the time and headache of building them. But....bleh.

Holy chit....this sort of turned into a novel

[///M5 2,833]

A little more dough, but mostly in the crossover assuming you build your own cabs. I would guess them to sound worlds better though.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=11321

As for the 4 ohms, I would guess that a ton of stock MTM's are pretty close to that anyway. If they are nominally higher manufacturers will label away whatever they feel like.

[Impious 1,476]

I've looked at designs utilizing the Dayton Ref drivers.....but at double the cost, I haven't sold myself on them yet.

[topgun 262]

How many Dayton Ref's would you need, I've got some extra 7's laying around that could be had for a lower cost (used of course).

[Acidburn 10]

I <3 my Dayton RS's

my bookshelves with the 6" RS and the $4.60 tweeter are some of the nicest sounding things i've heard (haven't heard uber high end stuff though)

i can give you the deisgn for the x-over too from OlogyAudio

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Make a build log out of this.

[///M5 2,833]

If you don't want to up the budget, I'd personally take something like the Modula MT over an MTM with lesser drivers. Perhaps it won't quite have the low end that you might like for HT, but when the time comes to upgrade they will be way more useful as sitting room, bed room, office etc. speakers. You can always add a substage later as well.

[oldschool4life 0]

Instead of building, why not buy some inexpensive speakers?

I'm selling Sapphire Audio system (5 or 7 speakers)...

I think I know someone who wants to sell their SVS system (not sure about the PB10)...

or, whatever...

[ANeonRider 3]

Building >>>>>>>>>> cheap ass speakers.

[DevilDriver 28]

We built two of the Dayton 8 MTM's and there is a big hole in frequency response at the upper and lower end, respectively, of each passband. If you were to change the design a little bit and go to maybe two 7" reference series drivers I think you would be much happier.

[Impious 1,476]

Dammit, you guys are starting to talk me out of the cheaper option

If I went the RS route, those MT's you have Acid would work out good for the rears.

I've heard both moderately good and some not so good about the D8's. Most have stated that they work good for HT, but music displays some of their compromises. Since this would be mostly used for HT, I wasn't as turned-off by their music performance. But I do want something that's listenable with music aswell.

Topgun; How much for a lower cost are we talking ?

Any good non-Dayton designs? I don't want to instantly jump on the RS boner without investigating the other options

[///M5 2,833]

You just missed the sale on the shielded Rev's...

[Impious 1,476]

Holy bloody hell.

This is probably the hardest audio-related decision I've ever come across.

I feel like a friggin' n00b again

So many choices, so varied opinions.

And I can't listen to a bloody one of them before making my decision.

I think I've ruled out any design utilizing the Dayton RS drivers as the cost of the crossovers are too expensive due to the response of the drivers.

Other than that......I haven't been getting anywhere on making a decision. And my receiver arrived today, so I wanna get this show on the road.....

[JimJ 11]

I'm thinking CSS/Adire FR125's in either transmission lines or one of Planet10's excellent designs for them.

Maybe it's the crossoverless-single driver weenie in me speaking, but they're cheap and extend pretty low in the right enclosures.

[///M5 2,833]

You could design your own crossovers using really friendly drivers. Something like the Seas CA18RNX on the low end matched with a large format tweeter. Play around with them actively, find what you like, and mock up a quick crossover. If you have a fairly easy to integrate driver like that doing it on your own wouldn't be so bad.

[Impious 1,476]

CLIFFNOTES:

Madisound has the Seas CA21REX in 4ohm version on sale for only $28 and the Seas 27TDFC/G for only $27 (same as 27TDFC only with a grill). I could build an 8ohm nominal MTM ported floorstander possibly even using the waveguide mod (which I like) from Zaph's TMM 2.5way. Pros: Good drivers, good bass response and should have good midrange, and should fit inside my budget well. Cons: Would have to design the enclosure & xover myself (though most using the Seas CA mids & Seas tweeters are capable of using generally simply xovers).

Little long, but atleast this post is finally heading somewhere....so stay with me a moment if you're still reading as this I would really like some opinions on;

Speaking of Seas, I was checking out Zaph's TMM 2.5way design utilizing Seas drivers the other day and really liked the design, but not the price tag.

Searching around on diyaudio.com here recently, I had run across the Seas Njord DIY kit Seas had posted on their website. Peaks my interest; Good quality drivers and very simplistic (read: very cheap) crossover. And I have faith that Seas wouldn't release a DIY design utilizing their drivers that would result in horrid sound.

So, I jump over to Madisound to see if they would happen to have any of the drivers used in the kit still in stock (older kit design using discontinued drivers).

And what do you know, the research reveals a Seas CA21REX for a very attractive price! Yes, I might be in luck! But after a few seconds I quickly realize that this is a 4ohm version, not the 8ohm version in the plans Oh well, wouldn't be hard to change the value of the inductor for the 6db/oct xover used in the plans. And it appears a VC change is about the only difference, so distortion performance/etc should be pretty much the same....slightly lower Q due to the different VC but no big deal really (also has a MUCH lower inductance according to the info on Madisound, however).

But then I'm back to something I wanted to avoid; A 4ohm load in the mid/bass region....something my receiver isn't recommended by Pioneer to handle. And I certainly don't want to spend the time and money on speakers that have the potential to be at odds with my receiver.

But then it struck me......This is a blessing in disguise!! This is actually PERFECT! Utilizing 4ohm mids I could run an MTM alignment with the mids wired in series for a nominal 8ohm load! And given the low Qts, they are perfect for a vented floorstanding alignment just as I was wanting! Should provide very good mid/bass yet still have relatively articulate midrange and I could even borrow Zaph's tweeter and waveguide mod from his Seas TMM design.

Madisound even has the Seas 27TDFC/G for a slightly lower price; Identical to the tweeter in Zaph's plans only this one has a grill.....which I'm guessing I could save myself $10 over the non-grill version, remove the faceplate and subsequently pop off the grill. So total cost of drivers would only be $166+shipping....well within my budget.

Ofcourse I would have to design a passive crossover and enclosure myself....but so far most of the designs I've seen utilizing the CAXX series of drivers have been able to produce good results with "minimalistic" crossover designs.....another benefit of these drivers.

[topgun 262]

Sounds like you got it pretty well figured out.

[Impious 1,476]

Yeah, I think this one just might fit the bill.

Hopefully Madisound doesn't sell out/isn't out of those Seas drivers when I go to order. Going to give myself a day or two to think about it before I jump the gun....but I really can't see much else that would top these within the same price range. Even the Dayton RS drivers, the pinnacle of budget drivers, are more expensive and require much more complex crossover design.

Also....on the passive design w/ the Seas drivers....I figure even if I start out with simply a "modeled" (i.e. standard, non-optimized) passive design now that is always a future upgrade I could do to the speakers when I have more time on my hands.

[topgun 262]

Eh, widen the budget and go active...

[///M5 2,833]

I like it. I didn't even think about that sale when I posted the CA18 as an option, however that is a step better.

[vladd 26]

crap i'm glad i saw this, i need to grab some of those ca21s for the heck of it

[Impious 1,476]

Eh, widen the budget and go active...

Maybe I should just grab a PC power supply and run the H701 in the house.....

[Impious 1,476]

I like it. I didn't even think about that sale when I posted the CA18 as an option, however that is a step better.

Yeah, I thought so too

Especially with the CA18 being double the price

[///M5 2,833]

Not a bad way to start in particular to decide on some crossover points.

[Impious 1,476]

I'm thinking CSS/Adire FR125's in either transmission lines or one of Planet10's excellent designs for them.

Maybe it's the crossoverless-single driver weenie in me speaking, but they're cheap and extend pretty low in the right enclosures.

Maybe it's because I haven't heard any yet....but I have this preconceived notion in my head that single-driver units wouldn't have the....stamina, I guess...to keep up with some of the demands that I may place upon them.

I was, however, getting frustrated and about ready to say screw and just go active using my JBL 2241's up to 300hz or so, BMS compression units up top and the Audax PR170M0 to fill in the gap in the middle Sensitivity FTMFW?!

But then I realized the wifey would be pretty upset if I spent our honeymoon money on speakers, amps and an active xover/EQ