Would the Pioneer TS-WX70DA be a better solution than an under-seat subwoofer?

[Xrc6 0]

I have a small car and having a family and all that am currently trying to use smaller and smaller audio solutions to maximize space to the point where I really don't even want a subwoofer in my trunk anymore.  I really don't need very much bass, just something to fill out the lower end but I want an all in one sub so that I don't have to use anymore space for an amp, etc.

So I know under-seat subs are not discussed nor recommended here but I was about to pull the trigger on one and then noticed that the Pioneer TS-WX70DA is now under $200 and it's a loaded horn design. But what interested me in this particular one is the below picture showing how thin it is and that you can stow your stuff on top of it.  So I know it's gonna sound weak compared to a hand built setup but what I wanted to know is would it likely sound better than any of the under-seat subs on the market or has anyone here heard this thing in person? I just need a little something to fill out the bottom end but not sound muddy which is how I'm afraid an under-seat sub will sound. I'm thinking maybe with it being a loaded horn design that it might be efficient enough.

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[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Hey Mike,

I haven't used that Pioneer sub to speak from experience, but it will be a solid product simply from their reputation.  If it fits your goals and is easier to set up/install go for it.  

We have plenty of people here with shallow mount / underseat subs that love them.  Heck, there are some SSA F8L's in F150's.  Sound quality will have far more to do with the install and enclosure than the sub.

[Xrc6 0]

1 hour ago, Aaron Clinton said:

Hey Mike,

I haven't used that Pioneer sub to speak from experience, but it will be a solid product simply from their reputation.  If it fits your goals and is easier to set up/install go for it.  

We have plenty of people here with shallow mount / underseat subs that love them.  Heck, there are some SSA F8L's in F150's.  Sound quality will have far more to do with the install and enclosure than the sub.

Ok thanks. Yeah I figured with it being a horn enclosure that the sound quality is likely pretty good but ya never know. But it's the 110db@1 watt efficiency over a typical under-seat sub that peaks my interest. That's usually getting into dual chamber bandpass territory. I'm pretty sure that if Pioneer released this with a $200 price tag to begin with then they probably would have sold a lot better than they did. I don't get why companies make these unique types of products but price them out of the range that people would want to try it out and within a couple of years they are forced to discontinue them.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

On 9/10/2019 at 5:13 PM, Xrc6 said:

Ok thanks. Yeah I figured with it being a horn enclosure that the sound quality is likely pretty good but ya never know. But it's the 110db@1 watt efficiency over a typical under-seat sub that peaks my interest. That's usually getting into dual chamber bandpass territory. I'm pretty sure that if Pioneer released this with a $200 price tag to begin with then they probably would have sold a lot better than they did. I don't get why companies make these unique types of products but price them out of the range that people would want to try it out and within a couple of years they are forced to discontinue them.

I think it all relates to demand, that will effect part and production cost, which in turn effects end cost to the customer.  Anything unique is usually not going to be cheap in a very established market place like audio.  So that price effects sales figures, then in turn effects life span of the product. 

 

I can speak from experience, as our SSA Xcon subwoofer, (currently not in production) was somewhat unique and was at the top of its specific market segment in many ways.  But what made it unique and better, was the motor.  It consisted of a very expensive coil, a crap ton of steel, machined in shorting ring, and a large magnet.  Those things alone drive our cost way way up, making it almost too expensive for us to make.  Its costs per unit was percentage wise, very close to the bigger SSA Zcon. 

[///M5 2,833]

Run away from the pioneer.  Horn loaded my ass

[Xrc6 0]

4 hours ago, ///M5 said:

Run away from the pioneer.  Horn loaded my ass

Yeah it's probably no Cornu CS but follows the rear horn loaded concept all the same. Can't be worse than an 8 inch sub inside a . 0.094 ft³ sealed box under the seat. The only physical attraction to this particular one is that it's thin and you can put stuff on top of it without losing any real actual floor space. Everything else I looked at or even calculated in Bass Box Pro will be too thick to be very useful for loading stuff in and out of my trunk.

Now I used to have a Sundown setup that I built myself and my attempt there was to create my own custom method of quick removal. The idea was that if I needed to use the trunk I could just pull a plug and set the box in my garage then put it back later. So I used a 220 volt Male/Femal plug that accepted 4 guage wire and used that as my quick release plug along with quick release pins holding the box down and an MTX Elite amplifier built inside the box. I even added handles to the sides however the damn thing was so heavy that pulling it out required me to do some stretching and pump some weights first to psych myself out for what was practically a max deadlift competition.

So I pitched that. I then tried desiging the thinnest enclosure I could out of BB Pro but it was still 6 inches thick with the wood and even 1/2" birch wasn't going to make enough difference. So then I just got a Bazooka tube and actually was really happy with it. It sounds pretty damn good for $99 but I can't stack anything on it and have to be somewhat careful when lugging in the kids sports junk or a stroller or the wife's crap....you get what I mean.

But this Pioneer is under 4 inches thick and broad enough that laying stuff on it won't be an issue since that's what it's designed for. I worry any 8" inch under-seat sub directly under my seat will sound too muddy. I'm sure that the design and marketing of this system was directly intended for us middle aged mom's and dad's out there that no longer put audio first.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Xrc6

[///M5 2,833]

I'd still run.  If you can't build or design an enclosure that works not sure why you expect that this one will.  It won't.  4" thick tells a story.  No way there is enough volume there to make it worth while.  I would instead put the funds into monster midbasses and forego a sub if that were the only choice.

[Xrc6 0]

3 minutes ago, ///M5 said:

I'd still run.  If you can't build or design an enclosure that works not sure why you expect that this one will.  It won't.  4" thick tells a story.  No way there is enough volume there to make it worth while.  I would instead put the funds into monster midbasses and forego a sub if that were the only choice.

It's also 33 inches long and 12 inches wide and is a Horn, not a ported enclosure. But the reason why I can't build such an enclosure because none of them will be near this efficient. Using a port or PR with an 86 db @1 watt woofer for a less than 200 watt amp will still cost me about as much to build and I'll have issues with Vent velocity and Group Delay is way too high and that's at these same dimensions. I already tried to simulate it and I certainly can't design a horn enclosure with BB Pro anyway nor am I that skilled at such.

Then I had the problem of finding a shallow 6.5" woofer with high sensitivity so that I could use it for a low power amp along with the other T/S specs that will work for a similar sized ported box is another matter and having a final design where I achieve 110 db's in car sensitivity is unlikely unless I just go with some 500 watts of power and a sealed box but remember I drive a Honda with a 96 Amp Alt and a lawnmower battery. 

Where a company like Pioneer can actually design their own speakers for a specific design in mind and use dense resin wood materials and testing that would be more expensive and time consuming for me providing I can even find it in a store. Plus I assume they have experts that can design a higher efficient horn loaded enclosure and they do have Andrew Jones on staff so that amounts to something of their expertise vs mine.

Besides I don't know who you think I am but I'm no basshead. I don't need to thump or flex panels I just want to fill out the frequency range that the components in my doors aren't very good at and figured this can't be worse. All I know is that it has excellent reviews on Amazon so it's worthwhile to some and I'm probably the type that's one of them since I don't care that much about audio while driving down the road. However your suggestion of designing "Monster" mid-bass in a Honda fit made me laugh though. I have JL Audio C5's and sound deadner and that's about as Monster as any mid-bass is likely to get in the doors of a Honda.

[///M5 2,833]

2 hours ago, Xrc6 said:

But the reason why I can't build such an enclosure because none of them will be near this efficient.

So Pioneer is defying the laws of Physics?

More aptly they are marketing things inappropriately to convince uneducated buyers that what they are offering is logical.  It isn't.  For where it will do well you don't need a big enclosure in the back of your car.

You are trying hard to hope it will work, it won't.  The average buyer on Amazon is already more brainwashed into happiness because they spent money than you are shopping.  If you knew the education and history of those reviewers you'd scoff as well.

If a real response is important to you, spend it on setting up your midbass well and you will be way ahead of that nonsense.

[Xrc6 0]

22 hours ago, ///M5 said:

So Pioneer is defying the laws of Physics?

More aptly they are marketing things inappropriately to convince uneducated buyers that what they are offering is logical.  It isn't.  For where it will do well you don't need a big enclosure in the back of your car.

You are trying hard to hope it will work, it won't.  The average buyer on Amazon is already more brainwashed into happiness because they spent money than you are shopping.  If you knew the education and history of those reviewers you'd scoff as well.

If a real response is important to you, spend it on setting up your midbass well and you will be way ahead of that nonsense.

Lol what? What did that have to do with physics? I said I could not find the correct woofers with the right depth and T/S parameters to build a similar setup that would be as efficient with a low power amp. Where a company like Pioneer can actually design their own speakers for a specific design in mind. Plus the materials to construct a solid structure on top of the nearest 6.5" shallow put me at over 6 inches thick and about 98 spl @ 1 watt according to bassbox pro. Again that's just using a ported box. Now maybe if I could design a similar rear horn but even then it'll be no different and probably cost just as much.

Dude it's two 6.5 inch woofers on 100 watts. What kind of expectations do you have in mind? This isn't about pounding 40 hz into a heart attack.

[///M5 2,833]

Same money on upping the midbass ante will reap you way better rewards.

 

[Xrc6 0]

12 hours ago, ///M5 said:

Same money on upping the midbass ante will reap you way better rewards.

 

$178 in Honda Fit. I already have C5 component so what do you suggest to reap me way better rewards?

[///M5 2,833]

Depends on what all else you have.  $180 buys a lot of great install goodies.

[Xrc6 0]

14 hours ago, ///M5 said:

Depends on what all else you have.  $180 buys a lot of great install goodies.

Already have everything else I need. New HU, 4 ch amp, speakers, sound deadening, baffle kit, DSP, all new wiring. Now I just need something that doesn't take up any use able room to fill out the lower frequencies. Hence the reason I asked about this Pioneer in comparison to an under-seat sub.

[Xrc6 0]

*silence. Well that's pretty much what I figured.

[lithium 358]

personally I would go with a subwoofer install in the spare tire well before trying out the pioneer option. You might be able to retain the spare if you're willing to raise the truck floor up a little bit. Getting creative with fiberglass might net you enough volume and depth for a 10" or 12" sub. 

optionally, remove the spare entirely and just swap the enclosure and spare for long trips where having the spare in the vehicle would be preferred. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by lithium

[lithium 358]

I'm looking at photos of the spare tire location and I think you could remove that foam piece that holds the tools and build a decent sized sealed enclosure for at least a 10" subwoofer for sure. 

[///M5 2,833]

$180 and small space doesn't leave you much if you have everything else. Aren't going to gain anything from that sub though.  If you do, a beefier midbass is still where I'd put the money.  Those are pretty pointless.