3 way front active system advice

[jesh4622 0]

Hi guys, 

I am putting together a SQ system for the wife. She just got a new truck, which is a 2005 Nissan Frontier with a crew-cab. 

 

I plan on purchasing a head unit almost entirely for bluetooth capabilities. I have narrowed it down to the Kenwood KDC-X501 (120 USD) for its ability to connect to 2 Bluetooth devices at once and support of aptX. This will allow minimal audio fidelity loss when paired with an aptX tablet. (tablet not yet purchased) The tablet would be used as a source for Spotify premium and navigation through Google Maps. Signal from the receiver would then go to a DSP. I'm undecided on the miniDSP 6x8 (300 USD) or the new Rockford DSR1. (230 USD)(The DSR1 one allows changing DSP settings through an android tablet) The DSP will output to two Soundstream class D amps - one 4 channel, which I I'll bridge to the woofers at 170w RMS each and the other a 5 channel. 

Because of space constraints in this vehicle, I plan to use an adapter in the front doors to fit a ~6.5" mid-bass driver. The stock tweeter location will be tested, and if it measures OK, used. I will then build a custom enclosure to fit the mid range driver. The doors will be prepped with SDS CLD tiles, SS Damplifier Pro and melamine foam on the inside. The drivers will be mounted on neoprene gaskets, sealed with silicone putty and bolted down. The baffle diffraction will be minimized with duct seal.

Right now I'm thinking:

mid-bass - Dayton RS180-4 (49.60)

mid-range - Dayton RS100P-4 (33.20 USD)

tweeter - SEAS Prestige 27TFFNC/G (40 USD)

total: 123 USD (x2)

I plan on crossing the tweeters over pretty high. I have seen others online say this tweeter sounds the BEST for frequencies over 4k. The RS100 should have no problem playing into that range. I also know dome tweeters have a better chance to sound good when reflected off a windshield like in the stock location. If I can't get a nice, detailed, wide soundstage, I will just mount the tweeters next to the mid-range drivers in the enclosure. 

I do plan on running a sub-woofer. The wife loves her interior room, so I am limited to a custom sub enclosure under the rear seat. This ranges from .45-.75ft^3, depending on the thickness of MDF. I am thinking of a single 10" sub. I've found two subs that will work, although I'm open to suggestions here, as well. Unfortunately, the single sub enclosures are a lot more, but not enough more to justify buying 2 subs.

Dayton LS10-44 (120 USD)

Infinity Reference REF1000S (85)

custom enclosure (140)

I would like to keep the total cost of drivers the same as the ones I have tentatively chosen, or lower. I would also like to keep the mid-bass driver as a non-paper cone. This is a 4x4 and will see a lot of time offroad, including through high water. 

 

Suggest me some drivers please! Especially you, ///M5. I signed up here because of other posts I've seen you make. 

Also, if you know of a head unit that supports Android Auto and has good-to-great network capabilities and pre-outs, that would allow me to skip the DSP. That could be an option. DVD/CD, XM, etc would be unnecessary as only Spotify would be used. HD Radio could be a plus. 

Edited October 2, 2017 by jesh4622

[///M5 2,833]

Not in love with those mounting locations.  Is that the only place to put the mid?  No way you can fit a bigger more dedicated midbass?  The RS180 is a nice midrange driver, but as a midbass there are plenty of other choices.  I'd same the same on the Seas tweet.  Generally I have a Seas boner, but not for that driver in that application in particular.

Either way that is all ahead of things.  First things first.  Getting the largest driver we can in the midbass space and secondly getting the midrange figured out.  What options for mounting/aiming do you have on the midrange?

[///M5 2,833]

Head unit wise, I am back to the world of non-carpc's as the new Kenwood's do all I need EXCEPT DSP.  I gave up on the mixed bus a while ago since the interface for the headunit fails then.  DDX9903s has great android auto integration and as a bonus will run a 2tb hdd holding music with pretty fast access times.  No other headunit did both when I bought a few months back.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

58 minutes ago, ///M5 said:

Head unit wise, I am back to the world of non-carpc's as the new Kenwood's do all I need EXCEPT DSP.  I gave up on the mixed bus a while ago since the interface for the headunit fails then.  DDX9903s has great android auto integration and as a bonus will run a 2tb hdd holding music with pretty fast access times.  No other headunit did both when I bought a few months back.

Is that the best double din active deck out now?

[///M5 2,833]

Was the best for my needs.  Mine were simple.

Not shitty SQ - pretty much ANY deck these days from one of the big manufacturers works here

Be able to take >1TB HDD for music --> Only on a Kenwood

Fast boot -> previous generation Kenwood's failed with speed all over this has a new processor setup and works well

Android Auto -> none are wireless yet

Works nicely with the Maestro for replacing my boost gauge and a few others -> Kenwood beats all manufacturers here as they work diligently with the idatalink folks to make sure they have access to almost everything.  Being I run a whipple on my truck having some extra gauges is helpful.

[jesh4622 0]

Thanks for the replies!

I don't need hard drive space since my wife will be mostly streaming. I suppose some wouldn't hurt for offline maps and song storage.

Does the DDX9903S do 3 way active + sub? It's so hard to find specifics on the network mode for head units.

Also, I think I was unclear on the mounting locations for drivers?
The midbass I want in the doors. I'm not opposed to underseat, but that would mean more enclosure work. No kick panels. My wife would destroy them. That means I'm limited to 6.5", 7" and 6x9" drivers. No way would she approve of cutting metal for 8" drivers.

For the midrange, I plan on creating a custom enclosure and mounting it on the dash. 

For the tweeter, I will try the stock location, and if I can't get the measurements I want, I'll make it part of the enclosure that holds the midrange. 

I did read that you're not in love with this particular tweeter, but with a 3 way active front setup, there's not a need to run it low where it has trouble. What do you suggest for the same price range? I am trying to do this on a budget - that's why I've put dollar values down for everything.

[///M5 2,833]

There is no active crossover in the 9903.  I gave up on finding anything that does that.  The unicorn doesn't exist.

For high frequency fill the Dayton ND20 would save you money and not kill a bunch of what you don't need...depending on the mid mounting and choice.  When you say enclosure how much volume can it have?

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I have an Xterra with the same setup. Here are a few pics for ideas. 

These could be sealed easily I imagine, and perhaps a thinner baffle to gain volume. These are 7" mids btw.

[altoncustomtech 773]

2 hours ago, ///M5 said:

There is no active crossover in the 9903.  I gave up on finding anything that does that.  The unicorn doesn't exist.

For high frequency fill the Dayton ND20 would save you money and not kill a bunch of what you don't need...depending on the mid mounting and choice.  When you say enclosure how much volume can it have?

I like the Dayton ND20 recommendation. I’m currently using a pair of them in my sons truck and they are incredible for the price. 

[///M5 2,833]

28 minutes ago, altoncustomtech said:

I like the Dayton ND20 recommendation. I’m currently using a pair of them in my sons truck and they are incredible for the price. 

That wasn't a recommendation yet...really want to know what the mids will do before even thinking about tweeters.  Just was a possible reference that would save budget and could have equal or better results depending on what it needs to cover.

[///M5 2,833]

Bang for the buck it is a hell of a tweeter though.

[altoncustomtech 773]

22 minutes ago, ///M5 said:

Bang for the buck it is a hell of a tweeter though.

That’s why I liked it when you mentioned it, of course there are better, but not many in that price range and I doubt any when they’re on sale. 

[///M5 2,833]

Yep, think i paid $4 ea for mine.  I only spoke back since I didn't want the OP to run off and buy some.  Mids first.

[jesh4622 0]

Volume limit on the the enclosure: I suppose as long as it doesn't obstruct view it's OK. It is still a girl's car, though, so maybe something like this. 

 

 

 

This discussion is very interesting to me because I have a 2 way front stage in my car and have always heard that the tweeter, by far, is the more important driver. It makes sense it would be different in a 3 way, though.

@j-roadtatts

Thank you for sharing - that's some lovely craftsmanship. 

Edited October 3, 2017 by jesh4622

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

 I believe what Five is asking is how much volume you can fit for the mid bass, not the mid range. 

 Then human ear can not localize sound under 80 Hz,  The human ear can only pick up side to side in the midbass range.  The directional artifacts in the music come from the mid range and tweeter.  So if you were after a good soundstage,  then their location is very important.  With a good processor not as important,  but still smart to not make it hard on yourself.

 You will have the best luck blending/phasing with the tweet and mid range mounted as close together as possible,  on the same baffle.  Like the pod you just posted.  The volume of that pod is not very important. You can vent it into the factory dash speaker hole and put poly fill in the pod if it is too small.

 Not sure if your wife is a total audiophile? If not I would be surprised if she was not beyond happy with just a 7 inch mid in the door and a good tweeter on the dash. ( not in the factory location lol)  Not trying to talk you out of anything just reminding you KISS!

 

[///M5 2,833]

8 hours ago, jesh4622 said:

This discussion is very interesting to me because I have a 2 way front stage in my car and have always heard that the tweeter, by far, is the more important driver. It makes sense it would be different in a 3 way, though.

By far?  Hopefully not.  Most car audio tweeters are complete trash.  What always matters the most is the driver that plays most of the frequencies.  The WHOLE goal of a 3 way in a car is to allow one driver to do as much of that as possible.  A hybrid 2 way can also be amazingly effective mating a full range driver with a dedicated midbass.  Midbass reeks havoc on a midrange so pulling that out greatly helps a full ranger perform.  

1 hour ago, j-roadtatts said:

 Not sure if your wife is a total audiophile? If not I would be surprised if she was not beyond happy with just a 7 inch mid in the door and a good tweeter on the dash. ( not in the factory location lol)  Not trying to talk you out of anything just reminding you KISS!

Indeed.  A well done 2 way will smoke 99% of all 3 ways that have ever been installed in cars.  Normally it is hardly worth the effort to go to a 3 way.  This is particularly the case if you can't fit a real midbass in your budget/install.  For that reason alone it may be the best approach here.

[jesh4622 0]

I know this stuff already, guys.

That's the point of doing a 3 way. You get most/all of your vocal spectrum on one driver.

So were you asking about the volume of the door? Because that's effectively infinite baffle no matter how well I treat it. And I'm not going to build an enclosure inside of it.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/peerless-woofers-6-7/peerless-830946-sls-6.5-woofer-4-ohm/

Again, this system is not going to be made to "slam" or for max SPL so I see little reason to discontinue plans for a 3 way front stage just because I want to use 6.5 inch drivers. There are these, there are the RS180s and there are TM65 MKIIs. I'm sure there are other drivers as well. Logically, if a 2 way can faithfully reproduce music to your satisfaction in 6.5 inch form factor, then there's no reason a 3 way can't. 

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Guess I misread "a pod under the seat" comment as a sealed pod.  I didn't guess you would run infinite baffle under the seat. My bad.

 Anyways a good bang for the buck midbass with a paper cone.

http://gr-research.com/m165xwoofer.aspx

or this

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/anarchy-woofer/anarchy-4ohm.html

 I personally had full rangers on the dash in my last car and always wanted to try the bamboo impregnated paper cone tang band. 

https://www.parts-express.com/tang-band-w3-1364sa-3-bamboo-cone-driver--264-844

 As far as tweeters I think the ND 20 would be hard to beat for what your planning.

 Good luck with the install!

 

[///M5 2,833]

The rs180's are useless as a midbass compared to those.  Next step if it were me would be to verify exactly the volume of the enclosure and how on axis it can be.  Those two parameters are what would lead me to the right driver.

[jesh4622 0]

For on the dash I would match the enclosure volume to the driver. I can build it to match the driver. I have a bit of experience building enclosures. The same thing with positioning. The angle is flexible as I'll design it to be on/off axis - the mounting will be custom. I can also construct the enclosure to angle the tweeter and wideband driver separately. So as long as the size of the wideband enclosure is not too big, it's not an issue. I think 3.5" and less would be best. Lately I have my eye on this.

It's small so positioning would be very flexible. According to user measurements, it easily plays down to 300hz and can go as high as I need it to. That gives me a lot of flexibility in finding the perfect XO point with the DSP. There are also reviews with direct comparisons (subjective)  against the 3" bamboo Tangband, with the Fostex coming out on top.

 

I forgot I was considering drivers under the seat, to be honest. Would that be ok as a lone midbass driver? Ignoring the door completely? I have seen people who use the 'cone of confusion' concept to supplement in-door midbass, but not alone. I was also thinking of 4x midbass drivers by using the back doors as well, if I do need more output in that region.

Edited October 4, 2017 by jesh4622

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

The ecm is under the passenger seat, so probably is no go on that one. (Looked this evening) phasing/blending may get weird with the midbasses seperate, but could work. I would be crazy enough to give it a try if it came down to it. I also noticed tang band had a 6x9 midbass for a decent price. Get ya the cone area of an 8". Otherwise the anarchy is a solid choose. I'm almost curious enough to see if it fits that I may have to measure. Lol 

Five is definitely your man for the widebander and tweet. There's also a bunch of other guys on here that have played with a bunch of drivers, that im sure will chime in. 

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

A sealed pod on the door could give a nice bump to the midbass, by raising the Q. Is where I was alluding to before.

[///M5 2,833]

Even at a 3" driver the need for a 3 way is dubious.  Just get the driver on axis and the tweet will then only muddy the response vs fixing it.  A 2" there is no way I'd run a tweeter.  A 4" on the other hand absolutely requires one.  Getting as much of the FR up top is huge and most easily done with the largest driver, but pretty sure the WAF on a 4" enclosure on the dash would be pretty low.  The 2 you picked has a really nice 3 in the same line.

[jesh4622 0]

Hmm yeah I see that the 6x9 Tangband would actually be pretty good for this according to the FR. Would you really run these instead of anarchy or SLS woofers?

They need 103mm (4.05") of clearance. I don't think that's possible for me. Or is it? Their xmax is only 7mm.

Clearance would be super tight for the anarchy.

3 7/8" (3.875") to the glass in the front, and the depth of the anarchy is 94mm, which is 3.70 inches. I had already planned on adding a gasket, which would bring it out a little, but it's so close. I'm worried with the xmax and gasket under it I'll have it slapping against the speaker grill. I have roughly 1" of clearance between the top of the adapter and the speaker grill. 

I think the general consensus is the anarchy is better than the SLS? 

 

Sealed door pods are too much work. That's too bad about the ECM. 

Edited October 5, 2017 by jesh4622

[jesh4622 0]

1 hour ago, jesh4622 said:

Hmm yeah I see that the 6x9 Tangband would actually be pretty good for this according to the FR. Would you really run these instead of anarchy or SLS woofers?

They need 103mm (4.05") of clearance. I don't think that's possible for me. Or is it? Their xmax is only 7mm.

Clearance would be super tight for the anarchy.

3 7/8" (3.875") to the glass in the front, and the depth of the anarchy is 94mm, which is 3.70 inches. I had already planned on adding a gasket, which would bring it out a little, but it's so close. I'm worried with the xmax and gasket under it I'll have it slapping against the speaker grill. I have roughly 1" of clearance between the top of the adapter and the speaker grill. 

I think the general consensus is the anarchy is better than the SLS? I'm reading more reviews and people are saying that the Dayton RS180 has a lot more detail from 63-315hz than the SLS. The SLS definitely produces more bass, and even sub-bass, but I'd rather have the detail and decent bass.

 

Sealed door pods are too much work. That's too bad about the ECM. 

Good points on the midrange drivers, ///M5. I'll stick to 3 inches after discussing with the wife, haha. She's not willing to go larger and smaller will just cause tweeter integration problems, like you said.

I think I've narrowed it down to the Fountek FR88. How do you feel about these for ~300-4,5,6k, whatever?

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by jesh4622