How much CLD/CCF/MLV for my car?

[bigrank916 72]

Trying to get some ideas on how much I need to complete my Mercedes C230 coupe. If I have a lil bit extra left over that is ok too. I have two other cars that could use some. I wanted to use spectrum instead of CLD but I'm kinda worried about the over spray. Kinda why I was leaning towards the sludge instead which can be applied with a brush. I've seen a few vids that show it isn't that much but I would need to completely tape off my dash and all the windows for the spray. Plus i have quite a few plastic parts inside that spectrum wont adhere to. I also had thot about using luxury liner pro instead of buying the MLV/CCF seperate but it was cheaper this way.

 

This is what i'm thinking of buying:

32 sq ft of damplifier B stock

36 sq ft of Overkill (CCF)

36 sq ft of Luxury Liner (MLV)

24 sq ft of Heatwave Pro (thermal barrier)

3 cans Spray adhesive

1 8oz vinyl contact cement

I plan to cover the floor and sides with CLD/CCF/MLV and then under the headliner and hatch will be CLD and a thermal barrier. I'll be doing the roof 1st so if there is any thermal barrier left, which I suspect there will be, I'll use that on the cabin side firewall.

What do you guys think? Any suggestions?

 

[///M5 2,833]

Spectrum is a waste of money.

CLD you don't need all that much.  MLV you have to cover the whole surface.  If you have one quarter the CLD you have MLV you'll be fine assuming you are using both on all surfaces.

[bigrank916 72]

You dont think spectrum works at all? Or just not a s good as 25% coverage of CLD?

Yeah the only reason I was getting 32 sqft is that its on sale b stock. Reg damplifier is almost the same price for less material. Plus I can use it on my daughters car too. CCF/MLV I planned to do as close to 100% coverage as possible

[///M5 2,833]

As a dampener spectrum is pretty useless.  It has other purposes but sucks donkey as a cld replacement.

[bigrank916 72]

I have quite a bit of uneven floor board under the front seats. I don't think I will be able to use CCF/MLV on top of the CLD. The floor board sections have foam that allows it to fit snugly in between the gaps and crevices. Luxury liner pro is 3/8" thick and might not allow it to sit properly. Prob didn't need it anyways.

[Second Skin 120]

On 5/12/2017 at 0:16 PM, bigrank916 said:

Trying to get some ideas on how much I need to complete my Mercedes C230 coupe. If I have a lil bit extra left over that is ok too. I have two other cars that could use some. I wanted to use spectrum instead of CLD but I'm kinda worried about the over spray. Kinda why I was leaning towards the sludge instead which can be applied with a brush. I've seen a few vids that show it isn't that much but I would need to completely tape off my dash and all the windows for the spray. Plus i have quite a few plastic parts inside that spectrum wont adhere to. I also had thot about using luxury liner pro instead of buying the MLV/CCF seperate but it was cheaper this way.

 

This is what i'm thinking of buying:

32 sq ft of damplifier B stock

36 sq ft of Overkill (CCF)

36 sq ft of Luxury Liner (MLV)

24 sq ft of Heatwave Pro (thermal barrier)

3 cans Spray adhesive

1 8oz vinyl contact cement

I plan to cover the floor and sides with CLD/CCF/MLV and then under the headliner and hatch will be CLD and a thermal barrier. I'll be doing the roof 1st so if there is any thermal barrier left, which I suspect there will be, I'll use that on the cabin side firewall.

What do you guys think? Any suggestions?

 

Spectrum will perform just as well as any CLD sheet on the market when built up to 3mm (2-3 coats) There is not much over spray, it shoots where you point it and is too heavy to float around the area to drift off onto anything else. Spectrum can also be brushed, rolled, or sprayed...Sludge can only be put on with a gloved hand or trowel and is meant for small spaces, nooks, and corners.  The 30 sqft you have in the post will most likely cover the floor only, if you want to cover the doors and walls, you will need to add about 15 more sqft. I would also recomend using Luxury Liner Pro instead of LL+CCF as it is less gluing, less cutting, and Luxury Liner Pro performs better then the 2 products seperately as the CCF on the Luxury Liner Pro is much more dense then the Over Kill Pro. Use SAVE10SS at checkout and save yourself 10% off your order. Good luck with your build, here is a video of Spectrum being sprayed inside of a shop with 10's of thousnads of dollars worth of builds in the back ground, there is very little over spray: Spectrum Video

[Second Skin 120]

On 5/13/2017 at 9:55 AM, ///M5 said:

As a dampener spectrum is pretty useless.  It has other purposes but sucks donkey as a cld replacement.

Do you have any real world data to support this statement? Spectrum has been used in vehicles that are hitting 150 DB plus and almost every customer who uses it has had great results. We also have a huge elevator company that uses it on every elevator they build because it kills the vibration noise so well and is so easy to apply. Spectrum will kill vibration waves and structure borne noises as well as any CLD on the market when applied in the proper thickness. 

Edited May 16, 2017 by Second Skin

[Second Skin 120]

On 5/13/2017 at 9:55 AM, ///M5 said:

As a dampener spectrum is pretty useless.  It has other purposes but sucks donkey as a cld replacement.

Also sir, if it is so useless you may want to talk to the forum owners you admin for and tell them they shouldn't sell the product on the website any more SSA Spectrum Listing 

[///M5 2,833]

It has other uses, but stinks as a dampener.  Since you claim differently why don't you show us measurements.  Pretty easy to measure damping and validate your statement.

1 hour ago, Second Skin said:

Spectrum will perform just as well as any CLD sheet on the market when built up to 3mm (2-3 coats) 

[bigrank916 72]

1 hour ago, Second Skin said:

Spectrum will perform just as well as any CLD sheet on the market when built up to 3mm (2-3 coats) There is not much over spray, it shoots where you point it and is too heavy to float around the area to drift off onto anything else. Spectrum can also be brushed, rolled, or sprayed...Sludge can only be put on with a gloved hand or trowel and is meant for small spaces, nooks, and corners.  The 30 sqft you have in the post will most likely cover the floor only, if you want to cover the doors and walls, you will need to add about 15 more sqft. I would also recomend using Luxury Liner Pro instead of LL+CCF as it is less gluing, less cutting, and Luxury Liner Pro performs better then the 2 products seperately as the CCF on the Luxury Liner Pro is much more dense then the Over Kill Pro. Use SAVE10SS at checkout and save yourself 10% off your order. Good luck with your build, here is a video of Spectrum being sprayed inside of a shop with 10's of thousnads of dollars worth of builds in the back ground, there is very little over spray: Spectrum Video

I'd still like to use spectrum on the underside of my car but that may be awhile before I can get it up on a lift to clean and spray it. I'd like to use LLp instead of the CCF/MLV seperate but i dont think my floor panels will fit if i do. Prob use that on my doors tho. Thank you for the discount code! I'll be back for more but I have a lot to get me started for now.

[Second Skin 120]

24 minutes ago, ///M5 said:

It has other uses, but stinks as a dampener.  Since you claim differently why don't you show us measurements.  Pretty easy to measure damping and validate your statement.

Is the testing data sheet not visible to you above? It is also located on the product page, just go to the link your forum website has it listed under and check it out yourself. I'll wait here for your proof that it doesn't work. We would love to hear from just one person that has used it and not had amazing results. M5 are you really suggesting that SSA lists and sells its forum members products that are known to "not work" ? SSA has sold Spectrum for over a decade without any complaints.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Second Skin

[///M5 2,833]

That is frequency response chart, not a damping chart...to make matters worse the units are ridiculous.  To be a good dampener it has to dampen, which is what you should measure.  Again, I didn't say it had no use, but it isn't a good replacement for CLD.  Don't try to force a different discussion,we were talking about the effectiveness of CLD vs Spectrum.  Not some arbitrary unitless frequency response function.

 

[///M5 2,833]

Btw, it is not conventional to show damping across all frequencies as no structure resonates across all frequencies in a way that makes it measureable, but if you claim it works just as well as CLD then you should actually show what it is doing mechanically or at least use a self generating structure with a calibrated forcing function.  Real units would be expected as well.  Measurements of both structures before and after as well.  It is REALLY easy to screw this test up and draw false conclusions.

The loss function you show is also a misnomer as the word loss implies transmission/absorbance and not damping.  Pretty unrelated; however, I can only imply what a scientist would from seeing the plots as there is no text describing the experiment actually done.  I can tell though that it was done by someone who didn't understand the ramifications or results that they were testing.

[Second Skin 120]

 

Cymbal Demo Without Db Meter Showing

Cymbal Demo With Db Meter Showing

This test is not scientific but clearly shows that Spectrum deadens just fine. There is about 18 Db difference in peak noise from the 87 Db non treated Cymbal to the 70 Db treated cymbal. But I am sure you will say I didn't hit the other one as hard or some other Bill Nye type diagnosis. But I am still sitting here waiting for you to show one slice of evidence that Spectrum itself is "useless" as you stated. But all you have is your opinion, which you are free to have, the other forum members will have to decide to take your biased opinion over 17 years of satisfied customers and dealers (just like SSA who sells this product on their website successfully for years). PS Next time you are inside of an elevator look at the tag and see if it is a Wright Elevator, if it is you should  be able to hear all the horrible structure borne noises, because like you said Spectrum is useless. I've been inside of them, they are dead quiet. Please bring just one unsatisfied customer to our attention sir. Until then, your words are 100% opinion, backed by zero facts. 

[///M5 2,833]

Do you understanding dampening at all?  Yikes to the irrelevant "data" and videos.  Your statement was that it was as good as CLD, show us...not that it is better than an untreated cymbal, lol.  I thought you were a huge improvement to the Ant idiot, please don't disappoint us.

Btw, I am not the one with an opinion, I measure structural resonances for a living.  

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

 I have treated a whole floor with dampener and luxury liner pro.  Reinstalling the seats was about the hardest thing,  but was not impossible.  At worst you will have to shave away the foam right at the seat mounts. 

 

Are you attempting to stop road noise, engine noise, or panel vibration? 

 

 I have a hard time believing that car has much road noise or panel resonation,  but would believe the engine noise. I could be wrong, but that is subjective opinion.  As there will always be noisier and quieter cars. 

 

 Please tell me you're not falling for some marketing pitch  like "as quiet as a coffin".  Because that is not possible,  but lowering particular audible sounds is.  So if you really want everybody's help I would suggest narrowing in on the what particular noises you are attempting to lower!

[bigrank916 72]

3 hours ago, j-roadtatts said:

 I have treated a whole floor with dampener and luxury liner pro.  Reinstalling the seats was about the hardest thing,  but was not impossible.  At worst you will have to shave away the foam right at the seat mounts. 

 

Are you attempting to stop road noise, engine noise, or panel vibration? 

 

 I have a hard time believing that car has much road noise or panel resonation,  but would believe the engine noise. I could be wrong, but that is subjective opinion.  As there will always be noisier and quieter cars. 

 

 Please tell me you're not falling for some marketing pitch  like "as quiet as a coffin".  Because that is not possible,  but lowering particular audible sounds is.  So if you really want everybody's help I would suggest narrowing in on the what particular noises you are attempting to lower!

I'm attempting to cut down the road noise and panel vibration. It is a fairly quiet car as is. Not thinking it will be like a coffin tho lol. Idk maybe I don't even need that either. I don't really have a specific noise I'm worried about. 

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

 I would hate to see you trip over a dollar to pick up a dime.  Or in this case trip over several thousand dollars (and several days of labor)  to get a couple hundred dollars worth of benefit. 

 I have done things at both extremes of spectum,  and was happy with the end result both ways. How, you may ask. Because I knew exactly what I was after, and took my time making a game plan.  I knew what "satisfied" looked like before I started.  I didn't just throw everything including the kitchen sink at it hoping end result would make me happy. 

 My advice would be focus on where the annoying sounds are coming from, and see if you can minimize them. If it is an interior panel, place your finger on it.  Does this sound stop or get quieter?  If you feel like the noise is coming from the fire wall,  place a heavy blanket in the floorboard.  Does the sound get quieter?  If you feel like the noise is coming through the doors,  put some cushions against them. Etc. Wash, rinse, repeat.  Start with the most annoying noise and work from there.  If you are due for new tires,  now would be a great time to check which ones have the lowest noise rating. 

 Short of very cheaply made cars,  I have found most only need treatment in a few places.  Anymore I just plan on doing a full treatment on the doors as the mid basses are in there,  and quite a bit of road noise can seep its way in there also.  After that I place pieces of foam behind any plastic panels that are vibrating. (what your finger is mimicking,  when you're pressing on them, only from the backside)  If the minimum you listen to your stereo at is 75-80 dB,  and the road noise is 70dbs....your golden!  If it helps you sleep at night to go to the extreme,  by all means go that route.  

 

 

 

[Second Skin 120]

 

On 5/17/2017 at 5:32 PM, ///M5 said:

Do you understanding dampening at all?  Yikes to the irrelevant "data" and videos.  Your statement was that it was as good as CLD, show us...not that it is better than an untreated cymbal, lol.  I thought you were a huge improvement to the Ant idiot, please don't disappoint us.

Btw, I am not the one with an opinion, I measure structural resonances for a living.  

Thank you M5 for keeping the thread alive sir, your involvement in this convo sparked an SSA forum member to take notice and call us for a huge order today. And what do you know, he ordered 10 gallons of Spectrum.......... So thank you for the exposure on this forum (which is usually dead as far as sound deadening goes). 10 gallons of Spectrum, 10 sheets of Luxury Liner Pro, and 4 sheets of Mega Zorbe #SecondSkinForTheWin #SpectrumLiquidSoundDeadening #17YearsOfSatisfiedCustomers 

Customer Ryan H. Order

Edited May 19, 2017 by Second Skin

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

 Is that an attempt to miss lead people to buy things they don't need?  Gaslight others much?

[SS Teacher 177]

I come on this site because I want honest information about all things car audio.  I am NOT interested in manufacturers pimping their wares, making outrageous claims, and saying anything just to sell more products.  I'm sure the owners of BOSS audio tell their customers that their amps CAN do 5000 watts.  Thank you M5, no thank you Second Skin.

[bigrank916 72]

17 hours ago, j-roadtatts said:

 I would hate to see you trip over a dollar to pick up a dime.  Or in this case trip over several thousand dollars (and several days of labor)  to get a couple hundred dollars worth of benefit. 

 I have done things at both extremes of spectum,  and was happy with the end result both ways. How, you may ask. Because I knew exactly what I was after, and took my time making a game plan.  I knew what "satisfied" looked like before I started.  I didn't just throw everything including the kitchen sink at it hoping end result would make me happy. 

 My advice would be focus on where the annoying sounds are coming from, and see if you can minimize them. If it is an interior panel, place your finger on it.  Does this sound stop or get quieter?  If you feel like the noise is coming from the fire wall,  place a heavy blanket in the floorboard.  Does the sound get quieter?  If you feel like the noise is coming through the doors,  put some cushions against them. Etc. Wash, rinse, repeat.  Start with the most annoying noise and work from there.  If you are due for new tires,  now would be a great time to check which ones have the lowest noise rating. 

 Short of very cheaply made cars,  I have found most only need treatment in a few places.  Anymore I just plan on doing a full treatment on the doors as the mid basses are in there,  and quite a bit of road noise can seep its way in there also.  After that I place pieces of foam behind any plastic panels that are vibrating. (what your finger is mimicking,  when you're pressing on them, only from the backside)  If the minimum you listen to your stereo at is 75-80 dB,  and the road noise is 70dbs....your golden!  If it helps you sleep at night to go to the extreme,  by all means go that route.  

 

 

 

Well I don't need extreme but I always enjoy a lil overkill lol. I guess the main thing that bothers me when I drive that car is the heat in the summertime. 100 plus temps is hard to keep the cabin cool enuf for me not to sweat. Especially if I'm wearing any type of nice clothing. The heat barrier product and CLD was a no brainer but the luxury liner pro was kind of an add on for noise. I know its a pricey add on but I thot it would help nonetheless. How much, idk. 

Maybe I'll take a page from your book and start LLP with the doors since I will be using midbass /midrange in there. I double checked the floor board piece and I might not have a prob like i thot. I could shave some foam off to make it fit. On the other hand its soft enuf that I might not need to. i thot it was a much denser foam. After that I can gauge how easily it will fit into the floor pan and if its worthwhile.

Also I see a lot of foam already behind the plastic panels as you spoke of. It seems this car was stock with several pieces covering the rear wheel wells as well as other random places.

I appreciate the help JRoad!! Some people have a way of explaining things that give me a much clearer look at the big picture, which you do. 

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

 Dude,  I just seen your build thread and realized you have your car already completely disassembled....  and that it is a wagon.  So there are three other control points I wanted to give you insight on. 

 First, as you noted there is already a factory sound deadener.  All automotive manufacturers do this to some varying degree.  But it is a compromise of cost, weight, performance.  Look at it this way,  if you're buying a Lexus instead of a Toyota,  or a Cadillac instead of a Chevy.  One of the added costs is more sound deadener, and the research on where to put it.  By no means will they ever stop all sounds.  But from low-end to high-end there is good, better and best.  I'm not super familiar with Mercedes line up, but I would assume yours falls in the middle. Which brings me to my second Control point.

  One simple way to lower road noise from the factory is use "mass loaded vinyl backed" carpet.  All carpets have a plastic backing,  but this would be an extra layer  that is still part of the carpet.  If your car has that, I would consider not lining the floor as the product is already there.  Which brings me to the third control. 

  Being a wagon is inherently going to bring more road noise in from the rear tires .  That would definitely be a place I would personally Focus on.

  Here are a few pointers on controlling panel resonation.  Pack butyl rope between the body and support rods anywhere there is a support bar inside of the structural body of the car.  Second is tap each body panel with your hand or a small tool, to find the areas that have the highest resonation.  Install the CDL tiles there first, then wash, rinse, repeat.  This way you can get the tiles were they are most needed. 

  As far as heat, that is a tough one.  Unfortunately what you are battling is probably more a product of humidity than actual temperature.  Where I live is dryer than a motherfucker,  you would come here and think 100° feels like 70°.  Not to say that the heat barrier is not possibly good idea,  but it will definitely be a lot less effective where you live.  I say it's worth a little more research,  as I am no thermodynamics expert. 

  No need to thank me as I enjoy helping others, so pass the favor along. I just hate seeing people do more work then they need to.  One way I gauge intelligence is the ability to use ones resources and energy wisely.  

 

  

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

My door treatment kit on my current ride.

And pics from the only car I did the floor on. Guess I did the seat area different than I remembered. ideally you would want to glue the seams to create an actual barrier. The tape I used is so sticky it will not come back off, so I was happy with that. 

I was trying to find pics of Aaron's SQ wagon. He and Don did a stellar job, that would be worth reproducing in your ride. Maybe you could ask him nicely for pics. 

[bigrank916 72]

10 hours ago, j-roadtatts said:

 Dude,  I just seen your build thread and realized you have your car already completely disassembled....  and that it is a wagon.  So there are three other control points I wanted to give you insight on. 

 First, as you noted there is already a factory sound deadener.  All automotive manufacturers do this to some varying degree.  But it is a compromise of cost, weight, performance.  Look at it this way,  if you're buying a Lexus instead of a Toyota,  or a Cadillac instead of a Chevy.  One of the added costs is more sound deadener, and the research on where to put it.  By no means will they ever stop all sounds.  But from low-end to high-end there is good, better and best.  I'm not super familiar with Mercedes line up, but I would assume yours falls in the middle. Which brings me to my second Control point.

  One simple way to lower road noise from the factory is use "mass loaded vinyl backed" carpet.  All carpets have a plastic backing,  but this would be an extra layer  that is still part of the carpet.  If your car has that, I would consider not lining the floor as the product is already there.  Which brings me to the third control. 

  Being a wagon is inherently going to bring more road noise in from the rear tires .  That would definitely be a place I would personally Focus on.

  Here are a few pointers on controlling panel resonation.  Pack butyl rope between the body and support rods anywhere there is a support bar inside of the structural body of the car.  Second is tap each body panel with your hand or a small tool, to find the areas that have the highest resonation.  Install the CDL tiles there first, then wash, rinse, repeat.  This way you can get the tiles were they are most needed. 

  As far as heat, that is a tough one.  Unfortunately what you are battling is probably more a product of humidity than actual temperature.  Where I live is dryer than a motherfucker,  you would come here and think 100° feels like 70°.  Not to say that the heat barrier is not possibly good idea,  but it will definitely be a lot less effective where you live.  I say it's worth a little more research,  as I am no thermodynamics expert. 

  No need to thank me as I enjoy helping others, so pass the favor along. I just hate seeing people do more work then they need to.  One way I gauge intelligence is the ability to use ones resources and energy wisely.  

 

  

Actually it is a coupe hatchback. I could never drive a wagon unless it was a screamin deal lol.

I'll have to look at the carpet but off hand I know it is all formed into three pieces. Driver side, passenger side, and center console/rear. They all have soft foam attached the the bottom the fits snugly in between all the floor pan crevices. It does seem to have a vinyl in between the carpet and foam. Its pretty stiff and thats what keep the form of the floorboards. Not sure how I would change any of that. Plus the foam would be a large job to take on after using LLP on the floor. I saw now yours bent arounf the center console and formed well to other places. I have a sample and theres no way this LLP will make the bends that my floor has let alone many other spots. It would of course lay flat and i would have a hard time fitting everything back over it. Its either insets in or leave them out and recarpet the entire floor. 

Wagon or coupe the rear wheels are indeed exposed inside the cabin. There is some mat laid over those but its not sticky. It has a felt backing. I planned to lay as much in the trunk/cargo area as possible. Do you have any pics of the support rod areas where you apply the butyl rope? I have an idea but I'd like to be sure. I started using the CLD on the roof last night. Only did the long flat areas away from welds and curves. I've seen that you used foam in the holes of your floorpan. Is that something I can do at all the supports rails too?

Actually no I'm right next to Sacramento so we have a pretty dry heat all year long. I've felt high humidity in the south and I cant do it. And you are right. It looks like 70 degrees outside until a blanket of wet wraps around you lol. The temps here int he summer time can get well into the 110s and stay there for a couple weeks. I can feel the heat on my floorboards in the dead of summer. I even have a giant heat shield and mat on the engine firewall side thats stock. Nice looking too. So some heat barrier there and under the headliner should be enuf.

Haha yeah I tend to dive straight in on things and iron them out later. Hopefully I wont make too many rookie mistakes on this build. I like to think I'm kinda smart but this stuff shows me I got a long way to go lol