3-Way Active Which Midwoofers & Tweeters For My Application?

[TX98Z28 10]

On November 21, 2016 at 10:25 AM, Notorious97200 said:

I am very happy with those ER18 : they are "punchy", and soft at the same time !!! They don't scream like a lot of speakers I can listen to in local installs.

They play much better after some playtime.

HPF : at 70 Hz and LPF at 3300 Hz but I don't remember the slopes I used on the mini-dsp. I've tried 3800, 3500, 3300 Hz...still going down.

 

BUUUT I think I blew the tweeters sunday night. After 30 minutes or more playing full tilt, some bad recorded reggae music mixtape, I realized I had no more tweeters playing, they were quite silent on the highs.

 

I'll have to investigate, wednesday afternoon. If they're really dead I will use my Focal tweeters, until I get another pair I want.

 

Thank you for your feed back on the ER18. Gives me more of an idea of what they sound like, of course me hearing them in person would be the ultimate…well almost the ultimate really need them in my car to be the most accurate listening experience.

Ahh if those tweeters are gone looks like you will be tweeter shopping if the Focals don't meet your expectations.

  

[///M5 2,833]

The ER can play a lot lower than 70, even at reference levels mine had no issues with 40Hz.  I don't listen to fart music however.

Small format tweeters are tough, should look at CL for a set of components you could temporarily use some from and the resell when you have a better idea of how things are.

[Notorious97200 339]

The ER can play much lower than 70 Hz. I totally agree, but I like some "fart music" sometimes ! 

 

Only one of my tweeters is dead, but I can have a replacement one for free, hopefully.

The second one fell off the mounting ring we made.

I'll fix everything this afternoon.

 

Ok ! I put the Focal TN 52 back in.

Mids Er 18 : HPF 70Hz @ 24 dB (I tried 6 db, 12, ...until I found 24 was better. Those speakers were playing  so much bass) LPF at 3800 Hz @ 6 dB. They're on 2 channels of my amp, so I bet they won't ever receive more than 40 w rms, and they're louder than ever !

Tweeters Focal TN52 : HPF at 3800 @ 6 dB.  Until I can afford a better sounding pair.

I will enjoy that setup a few days, then I'll work on the Time Alignment this next week-end.

 

[TX98Z28 10]

Notorious,

I really appreciate the feedback on the ER18 paired with your tweeters. The more I read and research the more things make sense. Power for the tweeters being one of those things, learned the lower you cross them the less power they will handle, part of the reason you have them on 40WRMS. I have also learned with the 4th order slopes the system becomes harder to control as well. Active will be a learning experience but I feel confident going that route instead of passive will pay off to my ears in the end.

I think I'm scaring people with the tweeters on the C1100…It's what I got it's a good class A/B amplifier just going to keep the knobs turned way way down for obvious reasons. I haven't bought the midwoofers or the tweeters yet but plan to soon….A new fuel system for the camaro just set me back over 1k.

[TX98Z28 10]

Happy new years fellow members!

 

After much thought, research and importantly meeting my own requirements for my application I've decided to go with the Seas Excel W18NX-001 for the midwoofers and ScanSpeak D3004/602000 for the tweeters. Any thoughts on my selections are more than welcome before I officially buy them.

I really looked hard at the ER18RNX but a lot of measurements http://www.audioexcite.com/?page_id=2113 the tester said crossing above 2k is well not optimal. I found the some similar examples with the SB Acoustics midwoofers, after they were tested they were not recommended to be crossed above 2khz. Distortion being the problem with the drivers oboe 2khz. Now I wouldn't mind running them if I had room for large format tweeters, Ive faced the facts the large formats for the most part can be crossed lower.

If I did run the ER18RNX is it worth it to save $200 over the W18NX but deal with more distortion??? More importantly (very subjective) do you think I will even be able to hear it? 

The tester who measured the D3004/602000 does not advice crossing it below 2.5khz on a 12db octave slope to play it safe.

Heres some good measurements of the drivers. A lot of this information I am still trying to decipher but looks pretty damn good to me. http://medleysmusings.com/seas-w18nx-001/ and http://medleysmusings.com/scan-speak-illuminator-d3004602000-tweeter-testing/ 

It should be known to the community I am extremely OCD, real OCD which makes decision making very hard for me especially when dealing with complex things…hence putting an entire audio system together and having things be correct or mesh better before equalizing or playing with steeper slopes.

Thanks guys 

[///M5 2,833]

56 minutes ago, TX98Z28 said:

It should be known to the community I am extremely OCD, real OCD which makes decision making very hard for me especially when dealing with complex things…hence putting an entire audio system together and having things be correct or mesh better before equalizing or playing with steeper slopes.

Lol, we can tell...but guess who else is?

57 minutes ago, TX98Z28 said:

If I did run the ER18RNX is it worth it to save $200 over the W18NX but deal with more distortion??? More importantly (very subjective) do you think I will even be able to hear it? 

 

If you can hear it you can upgrade.  I have had a pair of both.  Awesome drivers.  The Nextel is beautiful, but in a car with such a ridiculous noise floor and so many compromises I no longer will spend that sort of dough on drivers.  IMO the money is better spent elsewhere.  Before those options I had Excel's in my car...

57 minutes ago, TX98Z28 said:

The tester who measured the D3004/602000 does not advice crossing it below 2.5khz on a 12db octave slope to play it safe.

Heres some good measurements of the drivers. A lot of this information I am still trying to decipher but looks pretty damn good to me. http://medleysmusings.com/seas-w18nx-001/ and http://medleysmusings.com/scan-speak-illuminator-d3004602000-tweeter-testing/ 

 

Don't always assume the tester knows what they are doing.  When Erin first got the Klippel from diyma loaned to him he had absolutely zero idea about audio.  Was one of the most confused people I have ever met in that regard.  While that has drastically changed his conclusions I wouldn't consider something you should draw ultimate credibility in.  What he did do well is find a good support structure to help him through things.

Also beware that recommendations on the net are usually watered down.  ie, if Erin told you go ahead crossover at 2kHz and 12dB and you blew the tweeter you'd rip into him in the forum.  He is aware of that.  If you use your ears and other senses you can do an awful lot "below" recommended.  The Fs of that tweeter is 700Hz.  While I do not have that driver (I currently run Scan D2904 /60001) I know it will easily mate with any of the woofers you chose.  Currently mine are paid with G18's, but they've mated with about 10 different 7's all just fine.

Lastly on the same note, these are going into your car which is about as far from a test panel as you can get.

The question that is always hard for me is will I regret not spending more and not knowing.  In car audio, I've gotten beyond that but I have a closet full of nearly ever 7" driver worth a shit ever put on the market minus a few I've given away to others to use.

[Notorious97200 339]

15 hours ago, TX98Z28 said:

Happy new years fellow members!

 

After much thought, research and importantly meeting my own requirements for my application I've decided to go with the Seas Excel W18NX-001 for the midwoofers and ScanSpeak D3004/602000 for the tweeters. Any thoughts on my selections are more than welcome before I officially buy them.

I really looked hard at the ER18RNX but a lot of measurements http://www.audioexcite.com/?page_id=2113 the tester said crossing above 2k is well not optimal. I found the some similar examples with the SB Acoustics midwoofers, after they were tested they were not recommended to be crossed above 2khz. Distortion being the problem with the drivers oboe 2khz. Now I wouldn't mind running them if I had room for large format tweeters, Ive faced the facts the large formats for the most part can be crossed lower.

If I did run the ER18RNX is it worth it to save $200 over the W18NX but deal with more distortion??? More importantly (very subjective) do you think I will even be able to hear it? 

The tester who measured the D3004/602000 does not advice crossing it below 2.5khz on a 12db octave slope to play it safe.

Heres some good measurements of the drivers. A lot of this information I am still trying to decipher but looks pretty damn good to me. http://medleysmusings.com/seas-w18nx-001/ and http://medleysmusings.com/scan-speak-illuminator-d3004602000-tweeter-testing/ 

It should be known to the community I am extremely OCD, real OCD which makes decision making very hard for me especially when dealing with complex things…hence putting an entire audio system together and having things be correct or mesh better before equalizing or playing with steeper slopes.

Thanks guys 

You made your choice. Do it now !

I never look at graphs or tests: I don't know how to read them correctly. And I know the results won't be the same in my car.

I'd rather read what other well informed people think about the products and go from there. The difficult part is to know who to trust !

But as I can see, you seem to be in good hands here.

 

PS : I run my Focal tweeters, waiting for SSA...

[TX98Z28 10]

22 hours ago, ///M5 said:

Lol, we can tell...but guess who else is?

 I should have known, a full speaker closet is a dead give away.

 

22 hours ago, ///M5 said:

If you can hear it you can upgrade.  I have had a pair of both.  Awesome drivers.  The Nextel is beautiful, but in a car with such a ridiculous noise floor and so many compromises I no longer will spend that sort of dough on drivers.  IMO the money is better spent elsewhere.  Before those options I had Excel's in my car...

Your absolutely right about upgrading. 95% of the time when the Camaro is on and I'm driving things won't sound the best, but the 5% of the time it's off and I feel like just hearing perfection (as long as panels don't rattle) I will be able to do so. 

I over looked one very important thing regarding both the W18NX and the ER18RNX. The W18NX cone and suspension are coated with Nextel the ER18RNX is not coated, I feel the coated should hopefully last longer in the doors when exposed to humidity, the paper cone on the ER18RNX had me worried with durability after exposed to damp/humid interior of doors. Hopefully with the new weather stripping for the doors it will help keep it drier.

I just bought the W18NX and D3004/6020 from Madisound it's official, done deal! To me the extra $200 is worth it so I quit festering over this decision, it's done.

22 hours ago, ///M5 said:

Don't always assume the tester knows what they are doing.  When Erin first got the Klippel from diyma loaned to him he had absolutely zero idea about audio.  Was one of the most confused people I have ever met in that regard.  While that has drastically changed his conclusions I wouldn't consider something you should draw ultimate credibility in.  What he did do well is find a good support structure to help him through things.

Also beware that recommendations on the net are usually watered down.  ie, if Erin told you go ahead crossover at 2kHz and 12dB and you blew the tweeter you'd rip into him in the forum.  He is aware of that.  If you use your ears and other senses you can do an awful lot "below" recommended.  The Fs of that tweeter is 700Hz.  While I do not have that driver (I currently run Scan D2904 /60001) I know it will easily mate with any of the woofers you chose.  Currently mine are paid with G18's, but they've mated with about 10 different 7's all just fine.

Lastly on the same note, these are going into your car which is about as far from a test panel as you can get.

The question that is always hard for me is will I regret not spending more and not knowing.  In car audio, I've gotten beyond that but I have a closet full of nearly ever 7" driver worth a shit ever put on the market minus a few I've given away to others to use.

I had no idea Erin was not as experienced with the testing as the other guy from audio excite with 30+ years under his belt. They both know way more than me thats for sure and I would say respectfully ///M5 you know more than them both 

If I am unsatisfied (which I doubt) with the W18NX I will pull them and use them for a 3 way cabinet project.

Again ///M5 Thank you for your time, help, and knowledge you have provided me. I truly do appreciate it man!      

Edited January 11, 2017 by TX98Z28
Grammer

[TX98Z28 10]

7 hours ago, Notorious97200 said:

You made your choice. Do it now !

You are absolutely right! I had made up my mind but was unable to pull the trigger do to my EXTREME OCD making me contradict myself over and over, over the extra $200 but with the W18NX being coated I feel this is the right choice for my application. No more what ifs or battles in my brain, It's done. Seas Excel Nextel W18NX-001 and the Scan-Speak D3004/6020 are officially ordered! I now need to update my signature.

[///M5 2,833]

You will love the Nextel's.  The ER's are fine in a door though.  I had the CA's in a Silverado that would POUR water down the inside when it rained and had no troubles.  That truck wasn't garaged much either.  Either way the NX are a superior driver so no regrets!

 

[Notorious97200 339]

I will get my Secondskin order today from DHL.

Install coming soon : I will tell you how do my mids look in the doors. I hope they won't be damaged by water !

 

Nice choice.

Pics should come soon.

[TX98Z28 10]

18 hours ago, ///M5 said:

You will love the Nextel's.  The ER's are fine in a door though.  I had the CA's in a Silverado that would POUR water down the inside when it rained and had no troubles.  That truck wasn't garaged much either.  Either way the NX are a superior driver so no regrets!

I should be fine hopefully, the inside of my Camaro doors have 3 drain holes in them to drain water that gets in there. Sense it's a 1998 model over time dirt and grime, small rocks even broken glass (previous owner) had gotten in there and clogged the holes in one door resulting in water just sitting in there draining/evaporating very very slowly. My stock speakers cones were not coated and they did deteriorate evenly ripping the cones. Go news is for planned rainy days i will more than likely drive the beater truck. 500+rwhp with 3.89's and NO traction control isn't the safest to drive in the rain.

I cannot wait for these drivers to come in will post up pictures when there here this Saturday. I am super excited about the Excels and the D3004/6020! 

   

[///M5 2,833]

I also have some paper coned JL's that are outside speakers now for 6 months out of the year including the rainy season here.  Magically in 6 years only one of the 8 has failed and that was from excursion and not the weather.

[TX98Z28 10]

4 hours ago, Notorious97200 said:

I hope they won't be damaged by water !

You should be fine my Camaros drain holes were plugged so that more than likely contributed to the cones deteriorating and tearing on the stock speakers.     

[TX98Z28 10]

4 minutes ago, ///M5 said:

I also have some paper coned JL's that are outside speakers now for 6 months out of the year including the rainy season here.  Magically in 6 years only one of the 8 has failed and that was from excursion and not the weather.

I wish I had the stocks to show you pictures of they were rusted to shit also. Seems ares failed for different reasons. I'm shocked to see you running JL… but I'm guessing this is on a boat being outside for 6 months of the year.

[///M5 2,833]

1 hour ago, TX98Z28 said:

I'm shocked to see you running JL… but I'm guessing this is on a boat being outside for 6 months of the year.

23' Malibu wakeboard boat.  I burned 8 gallons of gas last year as my children currently hate it.

The JL's came with the boat.  When I got the boat they sounded like crap, weren't loud enough to surf and listen to music, and the RF sub was laughable.  Being they are passive components (all 8 of them identical) the cure was to add some miniDSP processing and taper all the shit out of them that created problems.  I replaced the sub with a 15" Xcon in a ported enclosure and 3 full range class D mini amps.  Now it sounds better than 90% of the boats on the lake.

Of course I designed a long throw PA setup for the tower, but never built it.  If I used the boat a bunch that would change instantly, but seems stupid to spend money on it until then.  The other trouble of course is that my kids are small (5 & 7) so volume is not their thing.  Means that for most use of the boat it is at far from reference levels and with the amount of motor/wind noise it seems stupid to waste money on making it sound the way it should.

I am also contemplating the 24'.  It throws a better surf wake and still fits in my slip...but I also miss my Ranger 521vx as flying across the lake north of 75 was awesome and fishing out of the current machine is pointless.  In other words a fishing boat will come before the 24 and probably the stereo upgrade in the boat.

Currently gutting my house as well so the next audio project will be some custom in wall speakers for the family room so that we can have monster sound but have it all invisible.  Designing the wall space with non-standard spacing to increase the enclosure size so that there won't be a compromise   Then the garage gets a system and finally we will see if I play in the boat.  The audio closet has everything I need...except for the boat which also limits what I would do.  That and like an idiot I designed a difficult enclosure to build. 

So yeah, I didn't buy the JL's lol.

[TX98Z28 10]

On January 12, 2017 at 2:08 PM, ///M5 said:

So yeah, I didn't buy the JL's lol

I was going to say if you did then something strange is going on here… Sounds like you got some serious projects going on, my money would be going mostly into the house projects, I would image thats where you and your family spend most of y'alls time. Having the speaker closet is a major plus, all quality stuff I am sure of that.

I haven't been on for a while my Grandmother died unexpected, got the flu in the nursing home and she couldn't recover from it. We lost her 1/14/17. My Grandpa and dad are taking it pretty hard, her and my grandfather were married over 60 years.

On a positive note I did get the Excels and Scan D3004/6020 in two Saturdays ago. They all look extremely nice quality wise, the tweeter were much smaller than I expected which is a good thing. I post some pictures up when I have time here.     

[///M5 2,833]

Sorry for your loss.  No matter the age it is never easy

[jcarter1885 995]

Sorry for you loss man, my condolences.

[Notorious97200 339]

Ooh... My condolences .

 

[Randal Johnson 544]

Sorry for your loss brother.

Hope the new equipment works out for you !!! Tuned in for your review !!!

[TX98Z28 10]

Thank you gentlemen for the kind words and condolences. She's in a better place now.

I finally found time to take pictures of the drivers. I'm very happy with the build quality of the excels and illuminators. The tweeters are much smaller than I thought they would be which is a good thing. 

I am very anxious to get these installed along with the other hundreds of parts...

Other things have to come first though, fixing the broke down beater truck first priority right now.

 

[TX98Z28 10]

Well it won't let me upload any more photos from the iphone so guess those will do. Weird that it lets me upload more off the MacBook.

[jcarter1885 995]

Love those drivers, they look badass.