Does replacing speaker wire give better sound for 110 RMS component speakers?

[Florida_Audio 55]

Im getting Alpine Type‑R SPR‑60C 2‑way Speakers. rated at 4 ohms

Going to be using an amplifier that can output at least 100 RMS each channel. up to around 125 RMS per channel.

My car is a 2013 hyundai elantra coupe.

I tried asking dealership if they knew the gauge of the factory speaker wire. or how to figure it out, in some manual or booklet. they said theres really no way to know, unless u measure or look at the wire itself.

I tried looked at youtube videos or other sources online and couldnt find anything specifying the gauge of the factory speaker wire.

Im assuming its between 18-22 gauge wire?

I heard that something such as 20 gauge wire can only handle around 50 RMS.

So, it this is the case, then is there any point in even getting an amplifier that can produce more than 50 RMS to each speaker? Should i still get an amp rated at 100 RMS per channel?

I dont quite understand this.

I know its better to replace the factory speaker wire. but not sure exactly why its important, or really by how much? I know the wire size can help prevent heat and some loss of sound quality. is this loss alot?

And ive heard aftermarket speaker wire has better shielding from interference with other wires in the car.

and ive heard that replacing the stock speaker wire in newer cars, such as mine, is extremely difficult due to how they are wiring them in the car?

how long should it take to rewire speaker wires to only the two front doors of my car? approximate for someone who is not an expert, but not a total noob? like under 1 hour, or several hours?

if i do replace the speaker wire i would like to run at least 16 gauge. maybe 14 gauge. but id assume either is fine.

 

Someone here has said i wont notice the difference in sound from amplifying my speakers at 65 RMS vs 110 RMS. just wondering how, or why this would be? i thought the degree to which you amplify your speakers can allow the highs to be more prominent or the mid bass, etc. like can vary how the speakers sound by a noticeable amount? also wondering if using 20 gauge speaker wire can bottleneck my system and only allow a much smaller amount of power to the speakers?

For the most part i am just trying to learn as much as i can about how these things work and such and if my assumptions are correct?

Thank you for reading!

 

edit: just read this : "Its not really a question of how much current the wires can handle but how much power you would be losing on thin wires.

Thinner the wire higher the resistance and so higher the power loss on the wires. "

Is this true? and if so, would it make sense to just add more RMS to the wire, to overpower the power, to account for the loss? wonder if the loss is like a straight number, like anything over x amount is 100% lost. or is it more like anything over x amount is lost by an increasing percentage? So maybe sending like 150 RMS through the wire, would help get towards the 110 RMS id want to have hit the speakers? im trying to look into how amps, voltage, watts, and ohms are related in this. the articles ive found make sense, but then there are alot of gaps where i dont understand the info very well. and even if i do understand the info, its also a matter of whether or not the info is actually accurate.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Florida_Audio

[///M5 2,833]

Type much?

Pretty simple, smaller wire more voltage drop.  The 100w or 125w or 132w or whatever is irrelevant.  If you have a long run of wire your voltage will not be maintained through it.

[Florida_Audio 55]

1 hour ago, ///M5 said:

Type much?

Pretty simple, smaller wire more voltage drop.  The 100w or 125w or 132w or whatever is irrelevant.  If you have a long run of wire your voltage will not be maintained through it.

trying to be thorough. what is considered long? my car is pretty close to 15 feet in length, measured outside car, front to back.

the amp will be in the trunk. and well front speakers are by the front. so id assume the wire length to be around 15 to 20 feet?

and im not sure of the factory speaker wire gauge, assume the worst, lets say 20 or 22 gauge?

trying to send 110 RMS to the speakers. but like i said above, if some of the power is lost, then would trying to send like 150 RMS to the speaker, allow for more to be maintained? like lets say you try to send 150 RMS to speaker, but some is lost and you end up with 100 RMS. should be fine then? overpower a bit to overcompensate for the loss ?

[///M5 2,833]

15' of wire is cheap.

[altoncustomtech 773]

15 feet isn't long, hell in the audio world 30 feet isn't long. At least not for that application. Power (watts) is a product of both CURRENT and voltage.

First, look at it like this, say for the sake of easy math we're talking about 100 watts even. It would take 10 volts AND 10 amps of current to have 100 watts in our imaginary circuit. Now I wouldn't want to try to flow 10 amps of current through a 20 gauge wire, it would get ugly. However the power supply in an amplifier turns your cars 12v system into an AC signal, runs it through a step up transformer, and then turns it back into DC for the amplifier section. Now, let's say that in our imaginary circuit that the voltage is 50volts, not 10, that would mean the current would only be 2 amps to supply 100 watts of power. The 20 gauge wire may still be a little light but for the distance of run inside a vehicle it's manageable. 

Now we get into the other part of the way it works in audio. Just because an amplifier is rated as being capable of 100 watts of output does not mean that 100 watts is coming out of its outputs all the time. In fact, the only time the output gets anywhere near the full 100 watts is when the input signal is causing the amp to try to produce maximum output. In other words only when you have the volume cranked. Even then it's not holding there at maximum. Music is dynamic, it's lots of low to medium level material with some high level and occasionally maximum level material.  So even at full volume 90% of a full song is low to medium level material, 7% is high level material and 3% is maximum level (depending on the music itself, how it was recorded and the quality of the recording.  This is only an example).

That means that even when you are listening to your music as loud as it can safely go that your amp is only outputting in its upper power ability 10 to 20% of the time. That's why we try to tell you that reading into and worrying so much about the numbers is such a waste of time. 

Trust me, I used to worry about every little number and everything years ago too. It wasn't until I spent a lot of time on here reading up on things, asking questions and talking to people that I realized that all my time and energy was focused on the wrong aspects. There are far more important, far more consequential things to worry about that make a much bigger difference than the power you're running to the speakers. That's not to say that what you're worrying about doesn't carry with it some merit but it should be lower on the scale than things like HOW the speakers are installed. Things like location, aiming, deadening, and many more items are the sum of HOW they're installed.  The closer that stuff is to as good as it can get the better the overall result no matter how much power you run or things of that nature. 

[Florida_Audio 55]

1 hour ago, ///M5 said:

15' of wire is cheap.

not worried about the price of material. worried about if its going to sound much worse or noticeable in anyway. also that i hear its extremely difficult to run new wires through newer cars with molex and other wires in the way.

also im not even sure if thats a correct assumption for the length of the speaker wires? if the length of the car is 15 feet, id assume the speaker wire is around 15 feet, maybe 5 more, so 20 feet? but should be around that number, i would assume.

 

1 hour ago, altoncustomtech said:

15 feet isn't long, hell in the audio world 30 feet isn't long. At least not for that application. Power (watts) is a product of both CURRENT and voltage.

First, look at it like this, say for the sake of easy math we're talking about 100 watts even. It would take 10 volts AND 10 amps of current to have 100 watts in our imaginary circuit. Now I wouldn't want to try to flow 10 amps of current through a 20 gauge wire, it would get ugly. However the power supply in an amplifier turns your cars 12v system into an AC signal, runs it through a step up transformer, and then turns it back into DC for the amplifier section. Now, let's say that in our imaginary circuit that the voltage is 50volts, not 10, that would mean the current would only be 2 amps to supply 100 watts of power. The 20 gauge wire may still be a little light but for the distance of run inside a vehicle it's manageable. 

Now we get into the other part of the way it works in audio. Just because an amplifier is rated as being capable of 100 watts of output does not mean that 100 watts is coming out of its outputs all the time. In fact, the only time the output gets anywhere near the full 100 watts is when the input signal is causing the amp to try to produce maximum output. In other words only when you have the volume cranked. Even then it's not holding there at maximum. Music is dynamic, it's lots of low to medium level material with some high level and occasionally maximum level material.  So even at full volume 90% of a full song is low to medium level material, 7% is high level material and 3% is maximum level (depending on the music itself, how it was recorded and the quality of the recording.  This is only an example).

That means that even when you are listening to your music as loud as it can safely go that your amp is only outputting in its upper power ability 10 to 20% of the time. That's why we try to tell you that reading into and worrying so much about the numbers is such a waste of time. 

Trust me, I used to worry about every little number and everything years ago too. It wasn't until I spent a lot of time on here reading up on things, asking questions and talking to people that I realized that all my time and energy was focused on the wrong aspects. There are far more important, far more consequential things to worry about that make a much bigger difference than the power you're running to the speakers. That's not to say that what you're worrying about doesn't carry with it some merit but it should be lower on the scale than things like HOW the speakers are installed. Things like location, aiming, deadening, and many more items are the sum of HOW they're installed.  The closer that stuff is to as good as it can get the better the overall result no matter how much power you run or things of that nature. 

wow...... thanks a lot!

i sort of heard that even though ur stuff is rating to put out certain amount of power that it wont be constant output of that. but i thought thats why you look at RMS not peak watt. because i thought RMS is the average or number of watts thats being output much more often than the peak? so then what is RMS? the numbers i listed above were all about RMS for the watts, 110 RMS speakers, and then when i listed numbers for the amplifier.

since you mentioned "many more items" on how they are installed, curious what else there is? besides deadening and the location of speakers? just to get an idea and such.

Thanks again! great in depth response

[altoncustomtech 773]

RMS is a real world measurement, or can be and that's why you look at it.  The peak ratings that many manufacturers use is strictly a marketing gimmick to lure in new buyers who aren't educated to the fact that the peak wattage number can be any made up number they want it to be. I like to refer to the peak amplifier wattage ratings as ILS ratings, If Lighting Strikes, lol. 

 

The RMS ratings you were referring to are measured ratings BUT they don't use music or speakers to make those measurements. They use a single frequency or tone and measure using a high power capacity resistor. It's the only way to get consistent, repeatable measurements. They have to use a single frequency to keep the output constant and consistent. They also have to use a resistor because a speaker is what's called a "reactive" load. Due to the physics involved in the inductance of the voice coil and several other physical factors the impedance, resistance or in other words the load the amplifier sees changes with frequency. So let's say at 1khz our imaginary speaker has an impedance right at 4 ohms, but say at 100hz the impedance is 10 ohms. Because of that the measured power applied to it would change just because the frequency did. A resistor is a dummy load, no matter what frequency is applied the resistance never changes. Therefore it's possible to get a consistent and repeatable measurement. Once you go and hook it up to a speaker and play music through it everything changes. 

The only analogy I can come up with to explain the dynamics in music is driving on a country road. The majority of the surface is somewhat smooth and the suspension doesn't have to travel much but mixed in with that is bumps, holes and things that make your suspension travel much more. It's varying constantly and therefore is dynamic in its response. Music works much like that where the smoother parts are the quieter instruments and parts of the song (think woodwind instruments, backup singers, a rhythm guitar). The rougher parts are lead guitars, the lighter rhythm of the drums, the lead singer and the roughest parts are the hard drum beats and bass guitar riffs and those parts of the song. All together it's a cacophony of sounds in a rhythm one finds pleasant to listen to. 

As far as the many more things it's a bit complicated to explain some of the aspects. The simple ones like location, aiming, mounting and deadening are easy enough and if you can get them right makes a lot of the other aspects less of an overall issue. Location doesn't mean just right where they put them from the factory. In fact the factory location and aiming are often about as bad as one can get for both. The best location depends on the speaker being used and what it's being used for. Typically the closer you can get the aiming to "on axis" or aimed at you, the listener, the better it is. Mounting refers to how the speaker is attached to the vehicle. The most common factory mounting methods are plastic rings or baffles or right to the sheet metal of the vehicle itself. Neither are great options as a speaker can produce a considerable amount of mechanical energy, especially when turned up loud. It should really be mounted to something solid, unmoving and acoustically dead. Which brings us to deadening. Deadening stops panel resonances (unwanted vibrations), mechanical noises (an interior panel slapping against the body for example), and blocks outside noises from coming through and into the cabin of the vehicle. 

As you can imagine this all can be quite an undertaking to accomplish inside of a vehicle. Which is why I keep saying "as close as possible". 

[Notorious97200 339]

Florida_Audio : stop thinking about numbers ! I know, I know, I do it too !!!

Take your time to read the more you can on this forum.

read that too:  The12Volt 

 

[Florida_Audio 55]

20 hours ago, Florida_Audio said:

not worried about the price of material. worried about if its going to sound much worse or noticeable in anyway. also that i hear its extremely difficult to run new wires through newer cars with molex and other wires in the way.

also im not even sure if thats a correct assumption for the length of the speaker wires? if the length of the car is 15 feet, id assume the speaker wire is around 15 feet, maybe 5 more, so 20 feet? but should be around that number, i would assume.

 

wow...... thanks a lot!

i sort of heard that even though ur stuff is rating to put out certain amount of power that it wont be constant output of that. but i thought thats why you look at RMS not peak watt. because i thought RMS is the average or number of watts thats being output much more often than the peak? so then what is RMS? the numbers i listed above were all about RMS for the watts, 110 RMS speakers, and then when i listed numbers for the amplifier.

since you mentioned "many more items" on how they are installed, curious what else there is? besides deadening and the location of speakers? just to get an idea and such.

Thanks again! great in depth response

wow thanks. another excellent explanation!

just to make sure i understand the general idea of the first part of what you said, in relation to RMS. you mean the majority of the sounds being played will not change due to the amount of RMS being sent to speakers. But, if you have the proper RMS being sent to the speakers then you get a much greater range of details coming through?

maybe this might work as an example? at least how i understand it? you have speakers rated at 110 RMS. but you power them with 60 RMS. so you have details and sounds from different frequencies 1 through 10. and with 60 RMS u can only hear numbers 4 through 8 very well. but 1,2, 9 and 10 are heard, but not very clear or detailed? but, when you power those speakers with 110 RMS then you can distinguish and hear in detail, every number, 1 through 10?

idk if frequencies or details is the proper word for this?

14 hours ago, Notorious97200 said:

Florida_Audio : stop thinking about numbers ! I know, I know, I do it too !!!

Take your time to read the more you can on this forum.

read that too:  The12Volt 

 

thanks. yea, ive seen a chart from this site before:

http://www.the12volt.com/wiring/recwirsz.asp

 

it says at the bottom :

Recommended Speaker Wire Size by Load and Distance

Wire Size	2 ohm load	4 ohm load	6 ohm load	8 ohm load
22 AWG	3 feet max	6 feet max	9 feet max	12 feet max
20 AWG	5 feet max	10 feet max	15 feet max	20 feet max
18 AWG	8 feet max	16 feet max	24 feet max	32 feet max
16 AWG	12 feet max	24 feet max	36 feet max	48 feet max

So...... im assuming my car has 22 or 20 AWG wire factory already in it for speakers. the length is probably around 15 feet. and my speakers are 4 ohm. so this is saying i can only run factory wire around 6 to 10 feet? i dont understand how they have this table, without the RMS? they are only comparing distance and ohms. but i thought the RMS should also be factored in?

 

this site has some amazing info, but im having trouble understanding what they mean by dips in the ohms and how some speaker wire is rated a a maximum ohm, but sometimes the power sent through the wire can go above or below the rated ohms of the speaker wire, and how this affects the sound. they are saying that there are some very noticeable differences depending on certain things. but im not sure what these things are?

Edited March 27, 2016 by Florida_Audio

[Notorious97200 339]

I've never worried about the size of the speaker wires. 

You shouldn't. 

You can use the factory wire. No problem with that. 

[Florida_Audio 55]

2 hours ago, Notorious97200 said:

I've never worried about the size of the speaker wires. 

You shouldn't. 

You can use the factory wire. No problem with that. 

ok thanks. yeah for now ill just get the adapter that goes from amp to the headunit.

its this :

Install Bay MC918-20

20 ft. (6.1 meters) of Nine Conductor 18 AWG Twisted Multi-Use Cable

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_20326_Install-Bay-MC918-20.html

 

this is what i will need right?

and maybe much later on when i do start to upgrade various things, i might consider the speaker wire to be rewired.

thanks !

 

[nigel 148]

23 hours ago, Florida_Audio said:

wow thanks. another excellent explanation!

just to make sure i understand the general idea of the first part of what you said, in relation to RMS. you mean the majority of the sounds being played will not change due to the amount of RMS being sent to speakers. But, if you have the proper RMS being sent to the speakers then you get a much greater range of details coming through?

maybe this might work as an example? at least how i understand it? you have speakers rated at 110 RMS. but you power them with 60 RMS. so you have details and sounds from different frequencies 1 through 10. and with 60 RMS u can only hear numbers 4 through 8 very well. but 1,2, 9 and 10 are heard, but not very clear or detailed? but, when you power those speakers with 110 RMS then you can distinguish and hear in detail, every number, 1 through 10?

idk if frequencies or details is the proper word for this?

RMS output has nothing to do with this.  What you're speaking about here is frequency response, which comes back to install.  Location of drivers, on/off axis, enclosure, distance from driver, deadening, mounting, equalization, etc...  Which is the most important, and hardest variables that you need to work on.

 

RMS is just referring to power output of the amplifier, and amount of power a speaker can safely handle through normal operation.  This is the last and least important of all the variables.

[Billy Jack 145]

When I do my installs I start from scratch and run my own wires for everything. I cut my speaker wires to the same length even if they don't need to be. And this has always helped with my "SQL" installs. I know the same power is traveling the same distance to my speakers.