DSP's and REAL amplifiers

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

It's time to start working on amps for future availability so I need to figure out what features that need to go into the product so I can have samples developed.  The amp part is easy,  it just needs to amplify input signal.  We are gonna let a DSP do all the hard work.  This means NO crossover networks in my amps.  Only a knob for gain matching.  But the question is what features do we really need in the DSP?

 

NOTE:  I HAVE A NDA WITH MY SUPPLIER.  I CAN NOT AND WILL NOT DUE TO LEGAL PURPOSES GIVE ANY HINT TO WHAT SUPPLIER WILL BUILD MY DSP.  DO NOT ASK

 

 

So, below are a few features I think it needs.  Give your input let me know what else would be necessary or beneficial.

 

1) PEQ or graphic.  I'm 99.999999999 percent sure PEQ.  A mic will be needed  so it'll be a learning curve for most but I think it's worth it.

2)time alignment of course

3)ability to auto eq with available third party software

4)unbalanced input / output (balanced would be cool but damn near nothing else would be and I'm told running non balanced on a balanced DSP can cause issues)

5)analog / RCA inputs and outputs

6) calibrated mic to come with DSP

7) 3 way with sub capable 

8) low voltage input for tablet sources, but what type plug?

 

[cehmke 0]

 

NOTE:  I HAVE A NDA WITH MY SUPPLIER.  I CAN NOT AND WILL NOT DUE TO LEGAL PURPOSES GIVE ANY HINT TO WHAT SUPPLIER WILL BUILD MY DSP.  DO NOT ASK

 

I really have nothing to add to this thread

Edited July 23, 2014 by Quentin Jarrell

[frogcase2002 393]

like the idea of not having crossovers on the amp. Its hard for most people to really tell where there setting them. . . . Any idea on power ratings you will have?

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

like the idea of not having crossovers on the amp. Its hard for most people to really tell where there setting them. . . . Any idea on power ratings you will have?

 

typical power.  Start  in the middle and work around that.

[cehmke 0]

 

 

NOTE:  I HAVE A NDA WITH MY SUPPLIER.  I CAN NOT AND WILL NOT DUE TO LEGAL PURPOSES GIVE ANY HINT TO WHAT SUPPLIER WILL BUILD MY DSP.  DO NOT ASK

 

I really have nothing to add to this thread

 

I have some extra workers that needs more hours ....   

 

 

It's ok ..  all in fun... don't get butt hurt ..  geez

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

NOTE: I HAVE A NDA WITH MY SUPPLIER. I CAN NOT AND WILL NOT DUE TO LEGAL PURPOSES GIVE ANY HINT TO WHAT SUPPLIER WILL BUILD MY DSP. DO NOT ASK

I really have nothing to add to this thread

I have some extra workers that needs more hours ....

It's ok .. all in fun... don't get butt hurt .. geez

I found my edit to be quite funny.

[swift 501]

I would dumb it down............alot

 

I'm not sure Im even smart enough to answer any of this. Are you talking about a processor thats built in the amp? Or separate digital processors and very simple style amplifiers.

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

Purely full range amps with only a gain control with the ability to purchase an outboard digital eq.

You would simply plug a mic I to the processor and it'll automatically adjust the 31 bands for you. Or you can measure and adjust manually. All via a laptop.

[swift 501]

Gotcha. Sounds very interesting but also may only fit a small niche of customer base in the SQ market. maybe I'm wrong

[Tirefryr 1,742]

I see huge potential here. I am already saving for these. This is the way it should all be done. I miss pure gain blocks! I hope you make a proprietary heat sink design as well.

[nadcicle 77]

I'd like bluetooth for being able to connect to the unit via my tablet and monitor the DSP. Not to play music over though some people might like it for that.

[ssh 924]

Parametric makes a lot more sense. I'm presuming the filter types can be changed. Essentially I would just look at what Minidsp has and make one with enough channels to do 2/3 way + sub.

[jcarter1885 995]

Small footprints would be a plus as well. Guess ill buy some temp amps till these are ready.

[Impious 1,476]

 1) PEQ or graphic.  I'm 99.999999999 percent sure PEQ.  A mic will be needed  so it'll be a learning curve for most but I think it's worth it.

Both. PEQ to target specific trouble areas, graphic for general FR shaping. Make sure you can EQ L/R independent and then shape overall system response.

2)time alignment of course

Of course.

3)ability to auto eq with available third party software

The only auto-EQ I've ever seen implemented in a car that is worth anything is Harmon's. All of the others have been trash inside of an auto. Were you looking at using Audyssey? The Alpine version of it was horrible. IMO unless this is some new proprietary design that hasn't been (unsuccessfully) used in the car before and can atleast compete with the MS8...skip it. It will increase product cost and no one will use it because it will sound terrible.

4)unbalanced input / output (balanced would be cool but damn near nothing else would be and I'm told running non balanced on a balanced DSP can cause issues)

To my understanding the design of differential balanced inputs still improve noise isolation with unbalanced signals which decreases the likelihood of users experiencing noise issues with the processor.

6) calibrated mic to come with DSP

See response to #3. Unless this is something much more fantastic than Audyssey and the other auto-EQ's for the car...skip it.

7) 3 way with sub capable 

Make the inputs/outputs assignable/routable and capable of signal summation. I.e. If you allowed for channels to be L-R then people could use the processor for proper rear fill if they weren't running 3-way + sub active. Make it easily controlled from the seat. Don't make the crossover point/slope/filter type too restrictive.

[///M5 2,833]

Auto eq is a joke. Auto t/a, well ok, but good luck.

L/R Eq needs to be independent.

I will NEVER buy another proc that can't do both graphic and parametric. For normal buyers however a graphic is WAY easier to understand. Makes for retards cranking them up though.

T/A

Adjustable slopes

Adjustable phase

Independent gain output

Reasonable input stage and output stage

BOTH balanced and non. Wherever you heard that was a limitation is wrong. I have that now btw.

And the biggie is control. IMO, for most users the control NEEDS to be in the dash. Requiring a PC or offboard solution to change things is not effect. All that being said, I don't think people need headunits these days so I'd also add the capability of an external volume pot to control the output stage. This way if they only wanted to mount the volume knob no headunit would be necessary. (I do this exact thing in my boat and fundamentally in my truck although the truck has a full out pc in it).

Investigating adding a tuner for the above wouldn't suck. For what it is worth I am using an HD Radio tuner in the truck that I paid $40 for. It has an open source function call to it and is EASILY interfaced with a PC. It also has a remote. Could easily add code to use that as a radio source and switch the DSP to a 1/8" Stereo input for its other source and have as much as anyone needs. I didn't buy the HD radio for any sonic benefit, it was just cheaper and easier to control with a PC than any other solution.

[///M5 2,833]

Forgot the sum. Definitely.

Love the comments on non-restrictive points as well. Personally again, I am done with systems that have ANY restrictions there. Way too easy to process these days to need set points to fuck up everything.

Btw, auto-eq doesn't even work with a real mic or Head & Torso simulator for that matter. Not fair that I get to play with toys like that, but it is amazing what you can learn and not learn from doing so.

[///M5 2,833]

Same comments agreeing with Ryan. I fucking hate ANYTHING on an amp. Hell if it weren't for thermal noise I don't even care about the gain knob. I just want a noiseless gain block. Heatsink and wire input output and nothing else. The smaller the better.

[garychurch84 127]

Interesting!!!!!

Tuned in!!!!

[emh9009 199]

Love that you're working on this. I've never liked amplifier crossovers, so this is going to be SWEET!  

[lithium 358]

 

 

And the biggie is control. IMO, for most users the control NEEDS to be in the dash. Requiring a PC or offboard solution to change things is not effect. All that being said, I don't think people need headunits these days so I'd also add the capability of an external volume pot to control the output stage. This way if they only wanted to mount the volume knob no headunit would be necessary. (I do this exact thing in my boat and fundamentally in my truck although the truck has a full out pc in it).

 

iirc mosconi's dps has android control via bluetooth. I heard minidsp is working on something similar as well. control from your phone would be much nicer than plugging in a laptop. 

[Adrian_D 520]

IMHO: 

Optical In / USB In

No Auto-anything

Independent L/R PEQ

Independent phase/gain/x-over point/slope on each channel

Configurable outputs (although this might add unneeded complexity)

Android control via Bluetooth

 

One version, with 4 channel outputs. 

[smashedz28 110]

Phone control would be sweet.

[Sencheezy 689]

Honestly, this would only satisfied a small niche audience. It's too "complicated" for today's everyday user's. Obviously, if you already understand this, then it wouldn't be an issue. But, I would focus more on the speaker line of things, at least for now. Get the mids/tweets out there. I know there's a lot of interest there, also with the primo, trident, even as suggested previously, the shallow mount. 

 

If you come out with a product that is too sophisticated, it won't sell. 

 

Prime example, would be Shizzon's protection system. Sounds great in theory, but in practice, it's just too much for the average consumer. 

 

Anyone can turn a few knobs on an amplifier, but not everyone wants to sit down for an additional hour or so to setup their amplifiers. Like I said, a small niche would only appreciate such a product. That is unless you figure out an easy way to do so. 

 

To make a product as your suggesting, and to make it simply enough for everyday user's, I would believe would raise the cost too much on your end. 

 

just my .02 I guess. 

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

The learning curve will be dumb enough for everyone to use. Even my 3 month old daughter can swipe open an iPhone.

Dont worry about cost. Just because you think it's expensive doesn't make it expensive to manufacture. I.e. the Ethos.

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

Auto eq is a joke. Auto t/a, well ok, but good luck.

L/R Eq needs to be independent.

I will NEVER buy another proc that can't do both graphic and parametric. For normal buyers however a graphic is WAY easier to understand. Makes for retards cranking them up though.

T/A

Adjustable slopes

Adjustable phase

Independent gain output

Reasonable input stage and output stage

BOTH balanced and non. Wherever you heard that was a limitation is wrong. I have that now btw.

And the biggie is control. IMO, for most users the control NEEDS to be in the dash. Requiring a PC or offboard solution to change things is not effect. All that being said, I don't think people need headunits these days so I'd also add the capability of an external volume pot to control the output stage. This way if they only wanted to mount the volume knob no headunit would be necessary. (I do this exact thing in my boat and fundamentally in my truck although the truck has a full out pc in it).

Investigating adding a tuner for the above wouldn't suck. For what it is worth I am using an HD Radio tuner in the truck that I paid $40 for. It has an open source function call to it and is EASILY interfaced with a PC. It also has a remote. Could easily add code to use that as a radio source and switch the DSP to a 1/8" Stereo input for its other source and have as much as anyone needs. I didn't buy the HD radio for any sonic benefit, it was just cheaper and easier to control with a PC than any other solution.

You said before that you have used a minidsp 2x4? Any features you particularly like and don't like?