Might Finally Install A Stereo...

[Impious 1,476]

Car is a '94 Buick Roadmaster.  Purchased it about 2 years ago.  Spent the 1st summer deadening the car, and last summer I just didn't have much time to get things done.  Goal is to have a stereo finally installed in it this year!  Have a little road trip coming up on June 22nd, and I would really like to at least have it playing music before then.  Between work, the gym and my kids' evening activities I don't have much free time so that is quite a challenge.  Not starting from scratch here.  But hoping a little log will keep me on track and responsible for getting shit done. 

 

To get things up to speed...the car is deadened front to rear with SDS sound deadening.  I believe 110 CLD tiles, 135sqft MLV/CCF and a roll of butyl rope.

 

Let me also preface this by stating up front that fabrication ain't my thang.  I can get it in there and make it work, but it ain't going to be pretty.  So if you are looking for fabrication tips, this isn't going to be that type of log.  I'm pretty proud of myself for not having any exposed MDF on this build so far as that's been pretty much standard in all of my previous systems.

 

Right now equipment will consist of:

 

Rockford ("Denford") RFX-8250Ti Headunit 

CSS LD25X Tweeters

CSS VWR126X Midrange

CSS Trio8 Midbass

Adire Brahma 15" Subwoofer (for now, I think)

JBL MS-8 Processor

3x Rockford P1000X4D Amps (speakers)

Rockford P1000X1D Sub Amp

 

Here is the car as it was the day I brought her home.  So it's an old photo, but it still looks about the same...

 

 

Amp rack, which as long as i didn't fuck anything up and it all works correctly should be done.   Going back to that fabrication issue, if you look closely at the wires you can see a few of my mistakes.  For starters I drilled the hole for the ground at the D-block too close to the block, I didn't account for the connector and left too tight of a bend for the wire to make.  I also purchased new RCA's, which are a little thicker than those I had planned to use when I first laid out the rack last year.  So in addition to having to take a Dremel and enlarge all of the RCA holes, the bends for the wire were a bit too tight in a few places for the RCA's as well...Oops !!

 

 

Kinda hard to see in this pic, but I had also replaced the torsion bars in the trunk for struts.  Can't have those pesky torsion bars in the way   If I ever get a sub installed, you'll see why they had to go.

 

 

With the trunk taken care of (except for the sub, but that'll come last) now moving on to the midbass in the doors.  The Trio8's were designed for home audio, they are prefer an enclosure.  Additionally, they are capable of moving some serious air.  So in order to try to bring their response more in line with my goals, and to reduce door vibrations/resonances I'll be 'glassing ~.5cuft sealed enclosures for the door which should put the drivers in an alignment of right around .7 Qtc.  They however are not shallow mount, so first I needed to make cut some metal to make room for the motors   The ultimate plan here is to make a little "box" that recesses into the door that will fit basically the motor, the rest of the enclosure to be where the map pocket would be.  No pics of the rest of it yet, but here's the hole I cut...don't worry about that little guy in the bottom left corner, he's been taken care of.

 

 

I also do have the molds for the kicks and rings for the midrange and tweeter made, but I want to finish the doors before I move on to completing the kicks.  Here's where they stand at the moment, the rings aren't attached to the mold so this is most definitely not their actual aiming.  But just to give you can idea of the general setup

 

 

 

 

And that's where it stands right now.  Hopefully mid week I'll be able to get crackin' at it again.  In the mean time if there are any questions on equipment selection, system plan and layout, etc fire away. 

[Julian 641]

Looks great man, you have some fab skills. Those prime amps are excellent dollar per watt value and quality.

[lithium 358]

Cool, another buick install!  Cant wait to see the midbass enclosures. I haven't decide whether to go IB or with an enclosure for my sls 8's yet. 

 

What are your thoughts on kick panel installs. Mid + tweeter off axis vs on axis? Is there a reason for the mid and tweeter to be on the same plane?  

[Impious 1,476]

Those prime amps are excellent dollar per watt value and quality.

They are actually not the Prime, they are the Punch.  But yeah, great dollar per watt at the $250 I paid for them authorized through Crutchfield.  Being that I'm a headroom guy, I wanted decent power but also needed small form factor.  I was originally going to go with the PPI/Soundstream/Polk/NVX/Hertz class D board amps that are the hotsauce right now, but reading the objective reviews in PASMAG I believe of the 5-channel Punch amp and the PPI or Polk 4-channels, I liked the Punch better.  Not much that would be audible except about 1.8db or so more power at 12V and a stronger power supply which allowed for more power bridged or loaded down.  Overall the specs for the RF all measured better which lead me to believe it was possibly a better designed board.  The RF was also a little more tightly regulated, and with me not upgrading the alt anytime soon I wanted a little more stable power output. 

[ssh 924]

 

This is going to be a fun one.

[Sencheezy 689]

um

No freaking way!

[Infinite913 381]

so super excited. Please continue as you were my good sir.

[Impious 1,476]

Cool, another buick install!  Cant wait to see the midbass enclosures. I haven't decide whether to go IB or with an enclosure for my sls 8's yet. 

 

What are your thoughts on kick panel installs. Mid + tweeter off axis vs on axis? Is there a reason for the mid and tweeter to be on the same plane?  

On/Off axis depends on a lot of factors.  The xover points of the drivers (ie if you run them into beaming), response of the drivers, obstructions and design of the lower dash, one seat or two seat car, etc.  Generally speaking the drivers end up being off-axis, especially in a 2-seat car.  One of the requirements for good imaging is to have even FR from both the left and right drivers.  Most people recommend to start out by aiming them at the back of the headunit and adjust from there.  This way the speakers end up being about the same amount of off-axis to both listeners.  All of my kicks end up being quite a bit off-axis for the best imaging.  I've never understood the people who aim both kicks at the dome light or the like, the passenger side kick ends up being way more on-axis to the driver than the driver's side kick, and vice versa.  If you aim the drivers to both be "on-axis" to the driver, then by default they will be all fucked up to the passenger and the power response will probably not be even at the listening position since they will be aimed differently in the vehicle.     Look at pictures of vehicles like Gary Biggs Regal....the kicks were aimed basically straight across the car. 

 

As for the same plane, I assume you mean how I have them aligned horizontally?  I'm doing this for basically height issues.  If I tried to stack them vertically then either the midrange or the tweeter would be tucked way up under the dash and wouldn't have a direct "line of sight" to the listener.  So all of the sound would basically be indirect reflections since the direct radiation would just be shot straight into the underside of the dash.  Between that and the short wavelengths I can only imagine the comb filtering and other interference issues by having either driver *that* close to a reflective surface.  The downside is that the FR in the horizontal plane with this alignment will probably be pretty bad around the crossover region, so aiming is going to pretty important to make sure I'm not shooting that crappiness straight at me   Vertical would be better if I had the room, but I don't.  

[Julian 641]

Those prime amps are excellent dollar per watt value and quality.

They are actually not the Prime, they are the Punch. But yeah, great dollar per watt at the $250 I paid for them authorized through Crutchfield. Being that I'm a headroom guy, I wanted decent power but also needed small form factor. I was originally going to go with the PPI/Soundstream/Polk/NVX/Hertz class D board amps that are the hotsauce right now, but reading the objective reviews in PASMAG I believe of the 5-channel Punch amp and the PPI or Polk 4-channels, I liked the Punch better. Not much that would be audible except about 1.8db or so more power at 12V and a stronger power supply which allowed for more power bridged or loaded down. Overall the specs for the RF all measured better which lead me to believe it was possibly a better designed board. The RF was also a little more tightly regulated, and with me not upgrading the alt anytime soon I wanted a little more stable power output.

Yeah after I posted that I realized they were the older punch series.

[Adrian_D 520]

Go, Brad, go !

I really like the fiberglass work, nice and solid rear, lots of layers. 

[PHATBOi 38]

Nice build. Tuned in.

[lithium 358]

 

Cool, another buick install!  Cant wait to see the midbass enclosures. I haven't decide whether to go IB or with an enclosure for my sls 8's yet. 

 

What are your thoughts on kick panel installs. Mid + tweeter off axis vs on axis? Is there a reason for the mid and tweeter to be on the same plane?  

On/Off axis depends on a lot of factors.  The xover points of the drivers (ie if you run them into beaming), response of the drivers, obstructions and design of the lower dash, one seat or two seat car, etc.  Generally speaking the drivers end up being off-axis, especially in a 2-seat car.  One of the requirements for good imaging is to have even FR from both the left and right drivers.  Most people recommend to start out by aiming them at the back of the headunit and adjust from there.  This way the speakers end up being about the same amount of off-axis to both listeners.  All of my kicks end up being quite a bit off-axis for the best imaging.  I've never understood the people who aim both kicks at the dome light or the like, the passenger side kick ends up being way more on-axis to the driver than the driver's side kick, and vice versa.  If you aim the drivers to both be "on-axis" to the driver, then by default they will be all fucked up to the passenger and the power response will probably not be even at the listening position since they will be aimed differently in the vehicle.     Look at pictures of vehicles like Gary Biggs Regal....the kicks were aimed basically straight across the car. 

 

As for the same plane, I assume you mean how I have them aligned horizontally?  I'm doing this for basically height issues.  If I tried to stack them vertically then either the midrange or the tweeter would be tucked way up under the dash and wouldn't have a direct "line of sight" to the listener.  So all of the sound would basically be indirect reflections since the direct radiation would just be shot straight into the underside of the dash.  Between that and the short wavelengths I can only imagine the comb filtering and other interference issues by having either driver *that* close to a reflective surface.  The downside is that the FR in the horizontal plane with this alignment will probably be pretty bad around the crossover region, so aiming is going to pretty important to make sure I'm not shooting that crappiness straight at me   Vertical would be better if I had the room, but I don't.  

 

 

 

Thanks for explaining that. So for your build are you aiming for a 2-seat car or do the drivers lend themselves to off axis aiming better? 

 

I should have explained what I meant by plane. Is there a reason for the mid and tweeter are at the same angle off axis? (your mounting rings are connected) I assume its a similar line of reasoning as above. 

 

I'll be testing every configuration I can when I start my front stage install but i'm interested in hearing how other people go about it. 

Edited May 27, 2014 by lithium

[///M5 2,833]

Sweet, making me feel lazy that I haven't put something in the truck yet.

Looks great so far.

Same plane -> equal distant motors to the ear prevents the need for t/a, synergistic aiming simplifies interference between the drivers, looks more balanced to the eye, easier to install/aim a single baffle, simple to setup vertical, allows for closest spacing between drivers allowing more flexibility in the crossover point. Lots of ways to skin the cat, but some combination of the above are hints. Obviously depending on aiming some of them go away.

[Notorious97200 339]

Thanks for all those informations !

Tuned in...

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Nice clean amp racks.  Good to see people of smarts still using RF.

[nadcicle 77]

Like the car, almost got one myself but ended up with a 96 caprice interceptor instead. I still wish I would have went with the Roadmaster for the amenities, but that was a while back and I sold the caprice anyways. 

[Randal Johnson 544]

Love the Road Masters!

Thank you for sticking with the Rockford Amplifiers.

[Impious 1,476]

nice and solid rear

Thank you for noticing . Lots of weighted lunges at the gym.

  

 Thanks for explaining that. So for your build are you aiming for a 2-seat car or do the drivers lend themselves to off axis aiming better? 

 

Yes and no. If you do the right things right you end up with a car that'll do decent from either seat for the most part. Things like trying to equalize pathlengths, get a decently flat FR or at least similar FR from each side, good selection in xover points, etc. In my case though the midbass in the doors will need quite a bit of TA so it'll only really image well from the drivers seat over the entire spectrum, but the midrange and up should do pretty good from either seat.

Aiming yes I've almost always ended up off axis even for the best imaging from only the driver's seat. I think it has a lot to do with achieving a combination of both aiming the drivers for the same axis at the listening position and aiming them both to the same spot in the vehicle to keep FR from each side similar. No hard data on that, just my guess.

I should have explained what I meant by plane. Is there a reason for the mid and tweeter are at the same angle off axis? (your mounting rings are connected) I assume its a similar line of reasoning as above. 

Sean pretty much hit most of the acoustic reasons in his response, and to be perfectly honest it just makes life easier when trying out aiming and finishing the kicks. The only real downside I can think of is that the midrange and tweeter will be forced into similar axis, but I think the time saved, ease of testing out aiming and other issues like maintaining close center to center spacing will more than compensate for any slight deviation in imaging from either driver being a few degrees out of optimal aiming due to being affixed to each other.

[jcarter1885 995]

Wanted a 4 channel a couple years back, should of grabbed one. Tuned it so far

[Impious 1,476]

If anyone has any great suggestions on how to glass a sealed enclosure in the door, I'm all ears

There are my door panels.



Can't decide if I want to glass the entire rear area from the metal of the inner door, or if I want to make a mold of the map pocket itself to create the rear half of the enclosure. The former would give me a little more airspace, the later would make life a little easier I think.

[lithium 358]

 

nice and solid rear

Thank you for noticing . Lots of weighted lunges at the gym.

  

 Thanks for explaining that. So for your build are you aiming for a 2-seat car or do the drivers lend themselves to off axis aiming better? 

 

Yes and no. If you do the right things right you end up with a car that'll do decent from either seat for the most part. Things like trying to equalize pathlengths, get a decently flat FR or at least similar FR from each side, good selection in xover points, etc. In my case though the midbass in the doors will need quite a bit of TA so it'll only really image well from the drivers seat over the entire spectrum, but the midrange and up should do pretty good from either seat.

Aiming yes I've almost always ended up off axis even for the best imaging from only the driver's seat. I think it has a lot to do with achieving a combination of both aiming the drivers for the same axis at the listening position and aiming them both to the same spot in the vehicle to keep FR from each side similar. No hard data on that, just my guess.

I should have explained what I meant by plane. Is there a reason for the mid and tweeter are at the same angle off axis? (your mounting rings are connected) I assume its a similar line of reasoning as above. 

Sean pretty much hit most of the acoustic reasons in his response, and to be perfectly honest it just makes life easier when trying out aiming and finishing the kicks. The only real downside I can think of is that the midrange and tweeter will be forced into similar axis, but I think the time saved, ease of testing out aiming and other issues like maintaining close center to center spacing will more than compensate for any slight deviation in imaging from either driver being a few degrees out of optimal aiming due to being affixed to each other.

 

 

thanks for answering questions.  I figured ease of install had to do with tweeter/mid aiming. 

[edouble101 314]

Did you check your LD25X's? Mine were very mismatched and not to manufacturer specs. The impedance curves and fs were very different from one driver to the next. I would love to try the mid you have as well. I have the FR125SR.

To make a sealed in enclosure in the door I cut an old coffee can in half. I then sunk that half into the door until it just about touched the window. This is now the area that the magnet sits in. Then I fiberglassed that to the backside if the door card. There are numerous ways you can do this hopefully you can picture what I am explaining. You can also add deadener to the "bucket".

Edited May 28, 2014 by edouble101

[ssh 924]

Did someone say door panels? http://www.whitledgedesigns.com/magicbus_build_doors.php

 

[lithium 358]

Did someone say door panels? http://www.whitledgedesigns.com/magicbus_build_doors.php

 

 

that guy is crazy. 

[ssh 924]

 

Did someone say door panels? http://www.whitledgedesigns.com/magicbus_build_doors.php

 

 

that guy is crazy. 

 

Crazy awesome.