More power for mids?

[///M5 2,833]

I use an iPad mini, connected via the USB on the 80prs. From what I have read, the digital signal gets converted by the hu that way, not the ipad. Majority of my music is iTunes purchased, though some tracks are mp3 from who knows where. CDs drive me crazy as I would be constantly swapping them out if I listened in the same way I do with the ipad.

I'd expect that to be one of your problems.

Get out a couple CD's that are of quality without compression and use those for testing.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Use a few CD's YOU ARE SUPER FAMILIAR WITH, something well produced. At least you will know what the your speakers are capable of, and when the source is to blame for poorer sound. 

 

Have you tried changing the eq settings on your ipad?

 

I listen to satellite and iphone most of the time out of convenience also. When I do throw on a CD, the same songs sound cleaner. I leave CDs in my car for the days I cant tolerate the hollow, empty sound from other sources.

[hdrox88 142]

I don't really have a whole lot of CDs to choose from unfortunately as I can't stand buying a CD for a few songs, but I'll do my best. I have the ipad eq off. Most of the songs don't have that flattened out or hollow sound, it's just a few here and there.

[///M5 2,833]

Shitty music makes a shitty stereo.

I have ZERO patience for downloaded music. I own NONE. Do have over 3000 cds I've ripped to my pc though and in a fashion where CD or not I have no SQ loss from using either.

[hdrox88 142]

Makes sense, you can only get as good as the source material being used. The small amount of CDs I do have in my iTunes library, I ripped with Apple lossless.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

A few more suggestions based on the info so far.

Reverse the phase of one of the mids and see if you are not getting cancellation between them.

I know it seems sacrilegious to use a media expander but if it works, it works.

As you stated you cant hear a dif with the mids crossed at 100hz with sub on, I would consider that when tuning and/or selecting drivers.

[hdrox88 142]

Ok, so with my truck running again I got about another hour in to listen. Going without my stereo for a week, I forgot that it already is decently loud. I couldn't tell much of a difference from the few CDs I tried compared to most of the audio on my ipad.

 

I set the HP on the mids to 125hz @ 24db. Good clarity(by my standards) seems to fall off at about the same volume level as before the xover change. I was able to get quite a bit louder while keeping a mediocre clarity, though, only for short bursts as I was running into thermal issues. It seems to be an overall loss of quality, I can't really pin point any one area failing first.

 

I have played with polarity and it didn't seem to make a huge difference in either way. I thought with T/A and phase adjustments in relation to left and right it is one or the other, depending on the install and tuning preferences. T/A dials them into phase?

[///M5 2,833]

T/A will compensate somewhat for spacing differences between the drivers. While spacing is related to phase, phase is also determined by wavelength which is obviously not a constant throughout the frequency range.

Again, you need to simplify this. Listen to only ONE driver. ie, Left mid with no sub, no tweet etc. Until you do that you will not understand where what falls on its face.

[jcarter1885 995]

T/A will compensate somewhat for spacing differences between the drivers. While spacing is related to phase, phase is also determined by wavelength which is obviously not a constant throughout the frequency range.Again, you need to simplify this. Listen to only ONE driver. ie, Left mid with no sub, no tweet etc. Until you do that you will not understand where what falls on its face.

What you want him to look for or hear he probably cant thats why you guys keep going back and forth. I doubt most audio users will be able to tell you exaxtly what's missing in their setup. Not doubting the Op or anyone else just being honest.

I know you are trying your best to help him Sean but not everybody is going to be able to tell you what they feel is lacking or those intended frequency range. We know he wants all around increase in output, as far as exactly where and what im sure you wont get from him. I was gonna type this a week ago but decided not too. I know its hard to give any suggestions on speaker choices without knowing what needs to be fixed. But I see this thread going on with more pages and frustration on the Op's part because yall arent on the same page.

[///M5 2,833]

Exactly why a month ago I asked to listen to the drivers independently. That makes it easy to hear. If it doesn't then it is time to guess at a solution, but the problem with the guess is you get more midrange or midbass not both.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Listening to the individual driver will give you an understanding of that particular drivers acoustical signature and limitations and that's about it.

I will give my best guess from what you have described, your music type and without listening in person. You are looking for a driver with an acoustical signature in a whole different pall park. Something with more amplitude from 100-1k and less cone breakup above that. IF there has to be a sacrifice it would be lossing 80-100hz.

Just a guess, but gives you an idea what info is needed. As at this point is obvious you just don't like that drivers acoustical sig and you are looking for an upgrade.

[jcarter1885 995]

Hopefully I didnt come off wrong, and yes I do agree with listening to each driver on its own as I've done that myself this past weekend. Maybe I should of asked if their any other methods to garner how to detect whats there and whats not there. Could downloading and using test tones work? Or do you have to listen to strictly music?

Also are there methods to exactly help the individual find what there speaker is lacking when listening to said speaker? I know most times you guys say dont boost and always cut. But would boosting frequencies given in the user's equalizer to a degree help identify an area of insufficiency or breakup?

Just trying to help myself and others.

Edited July 3, 2014 by jay-cee

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Suggestions on tuning are just that.

If you want a speaker recommendation, give a more detailed objective. As the example above. Being so subjective with your awnsers won't really help as opinions vary so much.

[jcarter1885 995]

Suggestions on tuning are just that.

If you want a speaker recommendation, give a more detailed objective. As the example above. Being so subjective with your awnsers won't really help as opinions vary so much.

No I dont need a speaker recommendation and my comment was in regards to Sean but thanks though. Im more so trying help people get a grasp of certain methods, techniques or ways to test what they should look for when deciding if a speaker upgrade is necessary.

[///M5 2,833]

Tones can help describe what frequencies, but first listening to music and then the tone will help. In this case I'd just settle for a description of what instrument or what part of what sound starts to get funny. Would help to have a somewhat known song that could be also listened to at the same point.

Being output challenged brings further compromises. More output = less coverage of the frequency range. The only exception is in adding complexity. At the same time, if you can't determine where or what is lacking in output then you aren't lacking in output...

[hdrox88 142]

Today I listened to just the left mid for a bit, then just the right mid for a bit. The right side seems to have a warmer sound compared to the left. The first place I notice problems is in the higher-highest vocal range, more so in female than male. It starts getting shrill/harsh and is irritating to the ear. J's description earlier in post #61 is pretty close to what I feel is going on, though I'd prefer not to lose anything in the 80-100hz area. From pushing these mids hard I have had them hot enough to smell twice and now I am getting an occasional clicking noise.

Edited July 3, 2014 by hdrox88

[///M5 2,833]

Time to experiment with crossing the tweeter lower and bp'ing the mid correspondingly. I am mobile atm but if you p link the tweet back we can start to optimize the crossover.

[hdrox88 142]

The mid and tweet are currently at 3.15k.

[///M5 2,833]

And what you described is one of them not being happy there. Try to listen to the mid only and turn down the bp. Need to figure out how high the mid can play and low the tweet.

[hdrox88 142]

Listening independently I ended up at 1.6khz and it sounds much better, both individually and as a whole without the sub on. Much smoother and balanced. Having the tweet that low makes me a little nervous but it sounds fine when listening to each one by itself.

[lithium 358]

pretty low for the tweeter. did you try underlapping them (higher xover point) with shallower slopes? 

[///M5 2,833]

Indeed I have NEVER had a system where the mid and tweet shared a crossover point.

[hdrox88 142]

I did not. I'll give that a try and see what I come up with. I to was thinking that seemed low for tweeters. It didn't seem to have an adverse effect on the sound, but makes me nervous nonetheless.

Thanks for all the help so far everyone, especially M5. The time spent on this thread alone is more than I ever expected.

[///M5 2,833]

Do yourself a favor and torment your ears by listenting to your tweeters alone on a gamut of songs that are a good approximation of your listening. It is SO MUCH easier to hear stress on a single driver.

ANd no, don't listen to the whole song it sounds so fucking bad without the rest it is unbelievable. The goal is to find the weakness so we can help fix it.

I still think new drivers will help as well, but first finding the limits of what you have will really help narrow down which ones.

[hdrox88 142]

I did some more testing today. On the tweeters I I seem to have settled on 3.15k @ 12db as the lowest xover point while retaining acceptable sound. At times they have a hissy sound to the "s" in vocals, like a little extra SSS. Part of that I think may be that I am hitting the limits of the HU internal amp since the tweets are on the HU right now. For the mids I can run 1.25khz @ 12 db or 1.6khz @ 18db while keeping irritation to a minimum. Upon further/closer listening it seems there is something not quite right that I can't seem to tune out completely. It is most prominent in vocals and makes no difference in CD or ipad listening. I liken it to the irritation of nails on a chalkboard. It doesn't actually sound like nails on a chalkboard, but the way it irritates the ears is nearly identical to me. The music and vocals are clear, but there is an irritation in my ears that makes me wince when listening to the individual mids, left or right makes no difference.

A little side detail, I have a set of Sony MDR-V6 headphones that I plugged into the headphone jack of my ipad and I can't find any of that irritation that way.