Rear speaker problem, no separation.

[SpeakerBoy 64]

Sounds to me like you're looking for certain frequencies to be louder but you don't know how to achieve that without adding more speakers. 

Have you never heard a good 2ch? You don't need to be surrounded to have enveloping sound. Listen around to some other systems to get an idea of what you're after. 

In a simple way, the rears fuck up the fronts by delivering the same sounds at slightly delayed times. Cancellation and interference and bullshittttttt.

Keep it simple, the fewer speakers the cleaner the sound. Install them right and you'll be drooling. 

Edited May 23, 2014 by SpeakerBoy

[hdrox88 142]

As someone who recently took the active plunge as well as ditched rear speakers, I have to say, these guys know their stuff. I'll never run rears after what I've been doing so far. I still have a long way to go but I'm hearing things never heard before over the few passive sets I've heard. Proper install and taming rattles in the doors is pretty important. An active setup is a little overwhelming at first and can be frustrating, but if you are as good with your ears as you lead on, it should help quite a bit.

[Bryan G 2]

As someone who recently took the active plunge as well as ditched rear speakers, I have to say, these guys know their stuff. I'll never run rears after what I've been doing so far. I still have a long way to go but I'm hearing things never heard before over the few passive sets I've heard. Proper install and taming rattles in the doors is pretty important. An active setup is a little overwhelming at first and can be frustrating, but if you are as good with your ears as you lead on, it should help quite a bit.

I've had the fader all the way to the front since yesterday and yes, I do notice. I can tell when I add the rear that it doesn't sound as full, it surrounds me more, but I do notice the flatness at times, I guess that's the way to put it, well I can't really explain, maybe the word clear, it sounds clearer, and I noticed that the sound does get all around me, until I turn my head to the left or right, then it all drops out, like when I'm making a lane change, I look over my shoulder and the sound is gone, ah, after learning the science of it, I can't argue anymore, rears kill sound.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Bryan G

[///M5 2,833]

That and it is also just seriously not natural. Of course, I mostly listen to live jazz but even with other genres it is seriously confusing to me to have music coming from the rear. I've never run sound at a show where that was a desired trait. Sure, the venue I mixed at had some nasty reflections, but I spent time and company money deadening the reflections and doing everything I could with eq to help the stage, not hurt it.

I also understand that your fronts are currently lackluster and are missing portions of the spectra that you want. Let's help you address those and then you will really never want rears again.

[Bryan G 2]

Okay, time to work with what I have and figure out what I need.

I didn't post my system before because I just didn't want to hear I need to replace everything.

Head unit: Kenwood KDC-X397

Fronet/rear amp: Kenwood KAC-8405

Front speakers: Infinity Reference 6030cs

EQ: Clarion EQS746

Rear speakers: Kicker 40CSS694

The sub and sub amp are Dual. I know it's low quality and will be replaced, but not until I get the front fixed. The sub amp is 20-20k hz so it's okay, but I just found that the speakers only go as low as 30hz. For now I'm happy with the bass, I can get by.  The sub box is a Fierce Audio - 12" Dual Sealed Flat Pack Subwoofer Enclosure FPS212.1 and I lined the inside with fiberglass insulation, I think I used 6".

 

So, first question is the one I'm afraid to ask, are my fronts good enough?

I was thinking that the 6x9's would sound nice up from, but I wonder, doesn't the oval shape screw the sound waves up?

Also, if the fronts I have are good enough, I will just sell the 6x9's.

 

Like Alton said, I need to make an adapter to get the fronts flush with the door panel. One of my customers works with wood and said he can build me something if I just give him the specs. Also, I will connect my EQ to the fronts so I can get those missing areas. I'm sick of the time it takes to use the settings in the HU, having to go through the menu sucks, with the EQ there is no menu, just turn the knob....

 

Mass Loaded Vinyl is expensive, I will eventually line the door, at least as much as I can reach, when I can afford it, but is there any cheap temporary solution?

 

Any other comments/advice would be appreciated.

Edited May 25, 2014 by Bryan G

[lithium 358]

• The infinity are fine
• Sell the 6x9's. 
• bridge the 4 channel to the fronts
• sub and sub amp are fine if you're happy with them. Watts are watts
• EQ is unnecessary. The 3 parametric built into the headunit is way more powerful than a 7 band graphic
• sell the EQ- see above
• deaden the doors, SDS has the cheapest most effective option, in my opinion. 

not sure what you mean by:

 

 

The sub amp is 20-20k hz so it's okay, but I just found that the speakers only go as low as 30hz.

 

 the sub amp only needs to reproduce 30hz to ~100hz basically. fullrange amps accomplish this obviously. I assume you've set the LPF appropriately (subsonic filter isn't required for a sealed setup)?

 

how about you just go over all your settings on the amp and hu. 

 

as far as deadening goes you should be able to sell your unused equipment to buy everything to deaden the front doors. 

 

this is a rough estimate:

• 1 x 13.5sqft sheet of mlv
• 1 x 13.5 sqft sheet of ccf
• 1 roll - butyl rope
• velcro strips
• 1 can contact cement
• ~12 - 15 cdl tiles

 

Thats what? 100 bucks or something? Those 6x9 are $170 on the sonicelectronix  link you posted. You should be able to sell the 6x9s and EQ, buy deadener, and still come out ahead. 

[Bryan G 2]

 

not sure what you mean by:

 

 

The sub amp is 20-20k hz so it's okay, but I just found that the speakers only go as low as 30hz.

 

 

 

For the subs, I want them to be able to be able to play down to 20hz., the amp will, but the speakers specs are 28hz - 125hz.

I was looking at these Pioneer TS-W304R or these Pioneer TS-W310S4, but that's way down the road.

 

Thank you for the reply. After learning how little I knew of car audio, I was bummed out thinking I bought all the wrong stuff, now that I know it's just a matter of proper mounting and fixing the door, I feel much better. I have 3 more of those sub boxes, Best Buy was getting rid of them for $10, I think I can get $20 a piece, so there is some of the money I need. I'm putting the 6x9's up on Craigslist for $125 to start. I just bought 6x9 boxes from Crutchfield for $25, they go for 40, they're unopened so I think I can get $40 (others sell for $50 on craigs) and I have a power tool I'm selling for $80. I get to use all this money for my car, so I don't need to sell the EQ.

 

The reason I want the EQ is because the built in parametric is hard to get to, I want to be able to make changes without having to hit the button, scroll to the setting, hit the button again, scroll the the one I want (bass, mid or high) then hit the button again and adjust it, then hit the back button like 4 times to get back to the main interface, hell, but the time I get it, the song's half over. The EQ would be quick, just turn the appropriate knob, done. So, unless you think the EQ is junk, I would like to keep it.

Edited May 25, 2014 by Bryan G

[///M5 2,833]

Hard to get to isn't a reason to accept a crappy tune. Spend some more time fixing it up front and you won't need to. That offboard eq is somewhat useless.

All this being said. A $2000 set of components just screwed into the stock locations can be WAY out performed by a $50 set of used comps when they are installed correctly.

Flush may not be what you want, that isn't clear. What you want is a baffle, isolation, and separation of the front/back wave. Until you do that no matter what gear you have it will sound lackluster.

As for the sub, it is BY FAR the easiest portion of the spectrum to reproduce. BY FAR. Focusing on making the rest sound good is definitely a good idea as bang for the buck that time will pay off the most.

[Bryan G 2]

As for the sub, it is BY FAR the easiest portion of the spectrum to reproduce. BY FAR. Focusing on making the rest sound good is definitely a good idea as bang for the buck that time will pay off the most.

 

I was right about something, finally. That's why I bought the Dual brand for the sub and sub amp, I figured that would be the easiest part to reproduce, these cheap ones would take care if the low end for a while.

 

 

Flush may not be what you want, that isn't clear. What you want is a baffle, isolation, and separation of the front/back wave. Until you do that no matter what gear you have it will sound lackluster.

 

I do understand what you're saying. There was a company in Grand Rapids Mi. that made super high quality speakers, not just the cabinets but every part from scratch. They had a display with a pair of speakers that were loud, clear and full range. This was like 30 years ago so I can't remember the size but I think they were around 6". So these little 6" speakers, in some rather small cabinets was filling the whole showroom, you'd figure the amp had to be putting out some good power, but it wasn't. They had a meter on it showing how all that sound was coming from only 1 watt of power. They were showing the same thing you're saying, with the proper acoustics, a little goes a long ways.

 

So how do I figure out what I want to do?

[///M5 2,833]

Listen and complain. Can't want better and not know what that means

[Bryan G 2]

Listen and complain. Can't want better and not know what that means

Sorry, I have no idea what you mean.

I have to do something with the 6"s, right now they're mounted to the door frame, there is around a 3" to 4" gap between the speaker and the door panel so I need to make some kind of adapter. I was going to make an adapter to bring the speakers out to the door panel and cut out the grill on the door panel, is that what I should do next?

[lithium 358]

 

Listen and complain. Can't want better and not know what that means

Sorry, I have no idea what you mean.

I have to do something with the 6"s, right now they're mounted to the door frame, there is around a 3" to 4" gap between the speaker and the door panel so I need to make some kind of adapter. I was going to make an adapter to bring the speakers out to the door panel and cut out the grill on the door panel, is that what I should do next?

 

the gap between the speaker and the door trim is fine. you need to use a baffle between the metal door and the speaker. what you're wanting to do is a little unnecessary but you could do that if you wanted to. 

[Bryan G 2]

Well, I've been using just the fronts for a few days now and I get it, I can hear it. Last night I was listening to some Supertramp and I thought I'd bring the back speakers into play, just a little to see. Yea, the sound started coming all around me, but I noticed the areas that were missing but instead of adjusting the built parametric EQ I just turned the rear back off. Now I understand why I had to use the HU's eq. to stretch the sound so  much before, because certain areas were getting canceled out. As I faded to just the fronts again I could hear the frequencies that were lacking come back and the fullness returned.

Since I've been using just the fronts I've noticed I can almost run the HU's  EQ almost flat. The treble used to be +3 or higher, now, for most albums it's +1 or 0, mid was always at least -3 but I run that flat, 0. The base I still keep up at +3 but I can tell that got down once I seal the door.

 

The biggest plus on this whole thing, I was driving with my girls to pick up one of their friends on the south side of Milwaukee, about a 1 hour round trip. I was able to crank the music to where I was enveloped yet they could talk to each other in the back seat without yelling, all they really hear is the subs, but they can talk through that easily.

[Bryan G 2]

 

 

Listen and complain. Can't want better and not know what that means

Sorry, I have no idea what you mean.

I have to do something with the 6"s, right now they're mounted to the door frame, there is around a 3" to 4" gap between the speaker and the door panel so I need to make some kind of adapter. I was going to make an adapter to bring the speakers out to the door panel and cut out the grill on the door panel, is that what I should do next?

 

the gap between the speaker and the door trim is fine. you need to use a baffle between the metal door and the speaker. what you're wanting to do is a little unnecessary but you could do that if you wanted to. 

 

I probably didn't explain it right, but that's what I plan on doing. I'm going to use some wood. I have a 6 1/2 hole saw, I could glue a couple of pieces of 3/4" particle board together, use the hole saw to make the whole, screw it to the metal door then screw the speaker to that.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Bryan G

[Bryan G 2]

 

• The infinity are fine
• Sell the 6x9's. 
• bridge the 4 channel to the fronts
• sub and sub amp are fine if you're happy with them. Watts are watts
• EQ is unnecessary. The 3 parametric built into the headunit is way more powerful than a 7 band graphic
• sell the EQ- see above
• deaden the doors, SDS has the cheapest most effective option, in my opinion. 

not sure what you mean by:

 

 

The sub amp is 20-20k hz so it's okay, but I just found that the speakers only go as low as 30hz.

 

 the sub amp only needs to reproduce 30hz to ~100hz basically. fullrange amps accomplish this obviously. I assume you've set the LPF appropriately (subsonic filter isn't required for a sealed setup)?

 

how about you just go over all your settings on the amp and hu. 

 

as far as deadening goes you should be able to sell your unused equipment to buy everything to deaden the front doors. 

 

this is a rough estimate:

• 1 x 13.5sqft sheet of mlv
• 1 x 13.5 sqft sheet of ccf
• 1 roll - butyl rope
• velcro strips
• 1 can contact cement
• ~12 - 15 cdl tiles

 

Thats what? 100 bucks or something? Those 6x9 are $170 on the sonicelectronix  link you posted. You should be able to sell the 6x9s and EQ, buy deadener, and still come out ahead. 

 

Sounds like a plan, I'm putting them on craigslist as soon as I can get them out of the back deck.

[Bryan G 2]

The not as full with just fronts is highlighting the install issue. First step is to fix that. IF you want to learn about deadening go here: http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/

As for your bookshelf comment, good ones don't have a bunch of speakers. Marketing departments, not engineers add them to shitty ones. Heck the ones in my office don't even have a tweeter and unless you have some real money in cans they sound better than headphones.

Inteference can be constructive and destructive. It will create all sorts of pits and mountains in your frequency response. WAY worse in a car as well with all the reflective and strange spaces.

I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking. My bookshelf speakers have 3, but now I realize that they are all crossed over so there is no overlapping in freqs, I understand what you mean now. I have Ohm C3's and they are unbeatable for realism, just can't use them, even at a low volume, the neighbors complain, that's why I'm building the car up, I hope I can get the car to sound close to them.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Bryan G

[lithium 358]

Well, I've been using just the fronts for a few days now and I get it, I can hear it. Last night I was listening to some Supertramp and I thought I'd bring the back speakers into play, just a little to see. Yea, the sound started coming all around me, but I noticed the areas that were missing but instead of adjusting the built parametric EQ I just turned the rear back off. Now I understand why I had to use the HU's eq. to stretch the sound so  much before, because certain areas were getting canceled out. As I faded to just the fronts again I could hear the frequencies that were lacking come back and the fullness returned.

Since I've been using just the fronts I've noticed I can almost run the HU's  EQ almost flat. The treble used to be +3 or higher, now, for most albums it's +1 or 0, mid was always at least -3 but I run that flat, 0. The base I still keep up at +3 but I can tell that got down once I seal the door.

 

The biggest plus on this whole thing, I was driving with my girls to pick up one of their friends on the south side of Milwaukee, about a 1 hour round trip. I was able to crank the music to where I was enveloped yet they could talk to each other in the back seat without yelling, all they really hear is the subs, but they can talk through that easily.

 

will more installation improvements the passengers in the rear won't have much a problem hearing the music. Its true they're further from the front speakers and loudness falls off with distance. 

[Bryan G 2]

Someone just offered me $100 for my rear speakers. I paid $170 last August and they're still under warranty. I was thinking at least $125.

Rear speakers: Kicker 40CSS694

 

Should I take the $100 or hold out for more?

[///M5 2,833]

Getting half on something non-desirable in the first place isn't so bad.

[Notorious97200 339]

Sell them fast, before he changes his mind !

I always run my EQ flat on my head unit.

I have a single set of comps, and their install is not perfect at all, but I love the sound.

 

You're in the right way now ! Sell that EQ and use the money for sds or secondskin products. :-)  :-)

[Bryan G 2]

They never called back. I'm not going to worry yet, I'll just keep them posted on craigslist.

 

Right now I'm working on what to do with the doors. I came up with an idea. I was thinking about using that Styrofoam they use in construction (3" thick) to seal off the door, making like a box. I'm thinking I'll roll the window down, then put the Styrofoam up against it then use that expanding foam to seal it, fill in the gaps. After that I'll get that high density stuff and coat the whole thing, should make a nice sealed box and improve the bass. I'm pretty sure that the speakers have too much freedom, I'm not sure of the proper term, but there is no back pressure, the speakers sometime just can't play the bass, they just move too much and no sound comes out.

The blue on this picture shows where I'll put the Styrofoam. Am I out of my mind, or would this be a good idea?

[///M5 2,833]

Have you sealed off the back wave yet?  

 

Building a box can be detrimental to a driver not really designed for it.  90% of car audio drivers were designed to run IB (at least ones that actually have a design).  Putting that driver in an enclosure without measuring t/s parameters and determining what the enclosure should be could actually net you much worse midbass.

 

The other problem you have is you are proposing lightweight materials.  You need MASS to block a wave, not material.

[hdrox88 142]

My money is on SDS from now on for sound deadening purposes. Google sound deadener showdown and click on the first link that shows up. Read everything on that site and it should help you to better understand what you do and don't need to do. It helped me a ton and if you look in my build log, you will see how I went about doing it.

[Bryan G 2]

Have you sealed off the back wave yet?  

 

Building a box can be detrimental to a driver not really designed for it.  90% of car audio drivers were designed to run IB (at least ones that actually have a design).  Putting that driver in an enclosure without measuring t/s parameters and determining what the enclosure should be could actually net you much worse midbass.

 

The other problem you have is you are proposing lightweight materials.  You need MASS to block a wave, not material.

Not sure what you meant but "back wave".

I know that Styrofoam is light, but I was going to cover the entire box with the sound deadener. The thing is, I usually am sitting with the car off when I listen to music, the fronts just don't have the mid to low bass that the rears 6x9's had. So maybe my first thing is to just buy new front speakers, at least the woofers and deaden the door without sealing anything off.

That is why I came here to ask before starting, I had a feeling that the speakers might not be meant to be in a sealed environment but I've learned to ask as I have a lot to learn..

I think I have another problem I'll have to look into, I adjusted the sub crossover and think I brought it up to where it overlaps the front woofer and that might be canceling out the fronts lower mid bass. I'll try and re-adjust that.

Okay, so for now, until I get money, I'll just wait. First I'll fix/deaden the door, then if I need to I'll get the speakers replaced, but I won't box off the speaker in the door.

 

Would 8" be better for the door or will 6"s work just fine?

[Bryan G 2]

My money is on SDS from now on for sound deadening purposes. Google sound deadener showdown and click on the first link that shows up. Read everything on that site and it should help you to better understand what you do and don't need to do. It helped me a ton and if you look in my build log, you will see how I went about doing it.

Thank you, I will read that when I get back home tonight.