Rear speaker problem, no separation.

[Bryan G 2]

I have a 06 Toyota corolla and the rear speakers are right next to each other (about 6" apart), killing the stereo effect. I was considering getting 6x9 boxes and setting them on top of the back dash so I can get the separation, but I'm pretty sure putting speakers that large in boxes that small will diminish my sound, mainly the low end, maybe kill it. Right now it has a nice punch, sounds like the drums are in the car.
when I'm listening, the front has great separation, of course, but everything from the back seems to come from the center.
I need advice.... Boxes? Is there sum kind of separating thing I can put on the rear deck? Just leave it?

[lithium 358]

unplug them. rear speakers do nothing but kill the front stage. if the front stage is lacking then address it first. 

Edited May 21, 2014 by lithium

[Bryan G 2]

unplug them. rear speakers do nothing but kill the front stage. if the front stage is lacking then address it first. 

Thank you for your response.

I've heard that from a few people. Sorry but I disagree, if you do it right, the rear can help make the system better.

My Front is complete,that's why I'm working on the back.

I blew out my back speakers last year and had to drive 6 hours home from Michigan and it sounded good, I was surprised, just the fronts and subs. But, If the back matches the front, it's like wearing headphones. When I fade it to the front only, the sound is all in front of me, but if I use the fade and start adding a little rear, there is a point where the music is right where I am, then I'm surrounded in it. Back in the day when I had a 76 Buick regal I had a great system and the sound was perfect, at least in the front seat, sounded like crap in the back but I didn't care. When you would sit in the front seat the sound was all around me just like putting head phones on.

I'm trying to get that sound again

[JCBULLET 2]

unplug them. rear speakers do nothing but kill the front stage. if the front stage is lacking then address it first.

^^ agreed

[lithium 358]

 

unplug them. rear speakers do nothing but kill the front stage. if the front stage is lacking then address it first. 

Thank you for your response.

I've heard that from a few people. Sorry but I disagree, if you do it right, the rear can help make the system better.

My Front is complete,that's why I'm working on the back.

I blew out my back speakers last year and had to drive 6 hours home from Michigan and it sounded good, I was surprised, just the fronts and subs. But, If the back matches the front, it's like wearing headphones. When I fade it to the front only, the sound is all in front of me, but if I use the fade and start adding a little rear, there is a point where the music is right where I am, then I'm surrounded in it. Back in the day when I had a 76 Buick regal I had a great system and the sound was perfect, at least in the front seat, sounded like crap in the back but I didn't care. When you would sit in the front seat the sound was all around me just like putting head phones on.

I'm trying to get that sound again

 

 

from what you're describing you simply have not heard a front stage that is set up correctly. 

[///M5 2,833]

from what you're describing you simply have not heard a front stage that is set up correctly.

Exactly. Headphone analogy is backwards. Mimic a 2chn setup, not rears.

[Randal Johnson 544]

I have a 06 Toyota corolla and the rear speakers are right next to each other (about 6" apart), killing the stereo effect.

Is this factory setup?

[Bryan G 2]

 

I have a 06 Toyota corolla and the rear speakers are right next to each other (about 6" apart), killing the stereo effect.

Is this factory setup?

 

No, I installed component speakers with crossovers in the front, installed the tweeters in the sail panel and 6"s where the door speakers were. Then put components with crossovers in the rear. This is why I'm not unplugging them, I put too much money in the new speakers. I have a pair of 12' subs in a non-ported box. 3 amps, 200 watts for the front, 200 watts for the rear and 400 watts for the subs. A Kenwood excelon series head unit and I just bought a Clarion EQ but haven't installed it yet.

 

I see a lot of people disagree with using rear speakers, but I've been doing this a long time and I know sound. Back in my younger days I was in demand by many local bands to run their boards when they played because i can tell what frequencies are lacking and what freqs have too much. If anyone were to the listen to the last system I had, they would understand, the sound enveloped you.

I've been into high end audio since 1984. I've had plenty of time to learn, experiment and discuss with others how sound works. The only reason I asked this question is because knowing sound, I am pretty sure the 6x9 boxes are too small for the speakers to properly work, I was hoping to hear from someone else that might have used these boxes

[Impious 1,476]

If you know sound, you would know that full range rear speakers turned up to the point they are "audible" destroys the illusion of stereo. The proper way to do rear fill, which is also coincidentally about what the first "surround sound" amounted to, is attenuated, band passed L-R (left minus right) rear fill which adds ambience and spactiousness to the sound without actually screwing up the stereophonic illusion...which is what you are doing not to mention the damage to the frequency response.

To answer your question yes, the results of stuffing speakers likely designed for infinite baffle into small sealed enclosures would not be desireable. The only bandwidth affected by this would be the midbass, and maybe the midrange around specific frequencies if the internal reflections were terrible. Not to mention they look awful.

That said I agree with the others. Sell the extra amp and rear speakers and spend the money on something more beneficial. Or keep the xtra amp, sell the rear speakers, buy a nice processor and go active with the front speakers which will make a 1000% improvement and way more of a benefit than rear speakers.

[Randal Johnson 544]

I see a lot of people disagree with using rear speakers, but I've been doing this a long time and I know sound.

For the record brother, I NEVER said anything is wrong with using rear drivers in a vehicle.

Now back to the topic. Is there stock locations for rear drivers in that particular vehicle ??

[Impious 1,476]

 

Is there stock locations for rear drivers in that particular vehicle ??

......

I have a 06 Toyota corolla and the rear speakers are right next to each other (about 6" apart), killing the stereo effect.

 

[Randal Johnson 544]

 

Is there stock locations for rear drivers in that particular vehicle ??

......

I have a 06 Toyota corolla and the rear speakers are right next to each other (about 6" apart), killing the stereo effect.

All I'm asking is if stock locations are "(about 6" apart)" in that particular vehicle.

[Impious 1,476]

Gotcha. I guess in my head I assumed he was referring to the stock locations, but you are correct he may not be.

[Bryan G 2]

yes, there are locations for the rear speakers, but they put them right on top of each other, so close there is no separation.

[///M5 2,833]

I see a lot of people disagree with using rear speakers, but I've been doing this a long time and I know sound. Back in my younger days I was in demand by many local bands to run their boards when they played because i can tell what frequencies are lacking and what freqs have too much.

That doesn't say much, most people are idiots. Look at the proliferation of Bose and Apple products. Yay! I just spent a lot for shitty sound!!

Even more confusing to me for someone who used to run a sound board. I did the same and have done a ton of recording. I LOVE studio monitors for mixing and of course having rears in your car is about the absolute opposite of that. All money spent and ego aside, when something can be improved it is worth embracing. If your ear is like you say then you should have no problem proving it out. You should also have no problem listening to the 6x9's on the market to realize that they are so lackluster that they are basically pointless anyways.

You've got enough channels and an ear, so use those channels to run your fronts active. Will really open up what you can do.

[Bryan G 2]

If you know sound, you would know that full range rear speakers turned up to the point they are "audible" destroys the illusion of stereo. The proper way to do rear fill, which is also coincidentally about what the first "surround sound" amounted to, is attenuated, band passed L-R (left minus right) rear fill which adds ambience and spactiousness to the sound without actually screwing up the stereophonic illusion...which is what you are doing not to mention the damage to the frequency response.

To answer your question yes, the results of stuffing speakers likely designed for infinite baffle into small sealed enclosures would not be desireable. The only bandwidth affected by this would be the midbass, and maybe the midrange around specific frequencies if the internal reflections were terrible. Not to mention they look awful.

That said I agree with the others. Sell the extra amp and rear speakers and spend the money on something more beneficial. Or keep the xtra amp, sell the rear speakers, buy a nice processor and go active with the front speakers which will make a 1000% improvement and way more of a benefit than rear speakers.

okay, I'm always willing to learn, I'm a little lost by what you said.

when I listen, I hear sounds in all places around me. If the left channel is the same in the front as in the rear, how could that screw up the stereo effect?

 

Then, you say adding more speakers would damage the frequency response, then why do most bookshelf speakers come with more than one speaker? Different speakers have different frequency ranges, I would think adding more speakers would add more frequencies. Same thing in a concert, they have many speakers. Could you explain how more speakers would damage the freq response.

 

Also, I didn't understand what you meant by band passed left minus right, you said it will add ambiance and spaciousness and I'm doing that, so did I do it right?

 

you can't tell attitude in typing, so I need to say, I'm not being a smartaz, I really want to know what you have to say. I know sound, that is to say my ears are sensitive, but I know more than the average person on audio equipment, but that don't mean a thing, most people don't know squat, I have a lot to learn and that's why I'm here.

Also, if you or someone could, I would like to know more about the processor you mention.

If you or whoever can help don't have time for all this, links to follow of reliable sources that would be good too.

[bombsaway 8]

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/topic/30823-cancelation/

[Bryan G 2]

 

I see a lot of people disagree with using rear speakers, but I've been doing this a long time and I know sound. Back in my younger days I was in demand by many local bands to run their boards when they played because i can tell what frequencies are lacking and what freqs have too much.

That doesn't say much, most people are idiots. Look at the proliferation of Bose and Apple products. Yay! I just spent a lot for shitty sound!!

Even more confusing to me for someone who used to run a sound board. I did the same and have done a ton of recording. I LOVE studio monitors for mixing and of course having rears in your car is about the absolute opposite of that. All money spent and ego aside, when something can be improved it is worth embracing. If your ear is like you say then you should have no problem proving it out. You should also have no problem listening to the 6x9's on the market to realize that they are so lackluster that they are basically pointless anyways.

You've got enough channels and an ear, so use those channels to run your fronts active. Will really open up what you can do.

 

No ego, it's the money.

I have a question, what do you mean by "run them active"?

 

Also, I spent a lot on the 6x9's but I'm not happy with the sound, that's why I bought the eq, I was hoping I could fix it, but I guess you're saying that wont help.

Like I just said in my last post, my ears are good, above average, but I have a lot to learn about sound equipment/shaping.

 

I am listening to everyone. I have a feeling if I raise the front crossover from 50+ to somewhere around 70+ I'll be able to turn them up louder,  then raise the top limit of the subs crossover to the same to fill in the rest... Well, that might make huge difference. Ever since I've been reading all these posts, I've been trying my car with just the fronts (using the fader) and it does sound full, I will have to admit I can't tell there are no rear speakers, until I bring them into the scene, but I don't bring them up enough to be able to tell there on, just to where is sounds fuller, but I'm debating, yea, it sound fuller, but does it sound better? I'm getting to think I should see what I could sell those rear speakers for.

 

I'm not trying to argue with anyone, it's more like debating as I'm trying to find what's best. I just don't know if the front speakers I bought are good enough but I can't afford to buy new.

 

I'll say this again, I wish I would have found this forum before I bought my system.

[Bryan G 2]

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/topic/30823-cancelation/

Thank you, that did help.

 

So let me see if I got this straight. If I put all the speakers in one spot, they would help, but if I separate them, then I'll get this canceling effect?

 

But then this comes to mind. Does it actually cancel the frequency or is it that it just doesn't enhance it? I meant, if the same frequency comes out of the front and back, it will be no louder than just the front, but it won't be any quieter either?

 

I think I'm getting it. I was thinking that if the back plays something the front can't, it will be fuller, but, why would I want just that freq coming from the back, then it goes to say, make sure the front plays it all...hmmm... then there is no reason for back speakers.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Bryan G

[bombsaway 8]

I have a question, what do you mean by "run them active"?

 

http://www.bcae1.com/passxovr.htm

http://www.bcae1.com/elecxovr.htm

 

I suggest reading both links.

Edited May 23, 2014 by bombsaway

[Bryan G 2]

 

I have a question, what do you mean by "run them active"?

 

http://www.bcae1.com/passxovr.htm

http://www.bcae1.com/elecxovr.htm

 

I suggest reading both links.

 

I think I knew that a long time ago, it all sounded familiar, thank you for that, I think I need to buy a crossover for my fronts. I looked up my kenwood amp for my fronts and it has an active crossover, but the speakers have a passive.

I'm assuming I still need the crossover on the speakers, to separate the tweeter from the woofer even if it's crossed over at the amp, because the amp I'm setting to 80hz, but that's still to low for the tweeters?

[lithium 358]

 

okay, I'm always willing to learn, I'm a little lost by what you said.

when I listen, I hear sounds in all places around me. If the left channel is the same in the front as in the rear, how could that screw up the stereo effect?

 

Then, you say adding more speakers would damage the frequency response, then why do most bookshelf speakers come with more than one speaker? Different speakers have different frequency ranges, I would think adding more speakers would add more frequencies. Same thing in a concert, they have many speakers. Could you explain how more speakers would damage the freq response.

 

when two sources reproduce the same signal, ie the front left and rear left speakers, they interfere. This kills the frequency response. When the same signal from two sources arrive at your ears at different times, due to different path lengths, this fucks the stage. Its way more complicated than this but thats the basic idea. Read the psychoacoustics section on wikipedia where it explains sound localization.

 

 

the point to the bookshelf speaker example is that there in only ONE set of speakers. not one set in front of you and one behind you. 

 

 

 

Also, I didn't understand what you meant by band passed left minus right, you said it will add ambiance and spaciousness and I'm doing that, so did I do it right?

no you're not processing the sound at all. you've just hooked up a 2nd set of speakers. 

 

 

 

I have a question, what do you mean by "run them active"?

 

active processing is where the signal is filtered (altered) digitally before amplification). while passive refers to filtering after amplification (ie. capacitors, resistors, inductors, etc). 

 

 

 

Also, I spent a lot on the 6x9's but I'm not happy with the sound, that's why I bought the eq, I was hoping I could fix it, but I guess you're saying that wont help.

 

if the 6x9s are inherently bad than there's no saving them. 

 

 

 

I am listening to everyone. I have a feeling if I raise the front crossover from 50+ to somewhere around 70+ I'll be able to turn them up louder,  then raise the top limit of the subs crossover to the same to fill in the rest... Well, that might make huge difference. Ever since I've been reading all these posts, I've been trying my car with just the fronts (using the fader) and it does sound full, I will have to admit I can't tell there are no rear speakers, until I bring them into the scene, but I don't bring them up enough to be able to tell there on, just to where is sounds fuller, but I'm debating, yea, it sound fuller, but does it sound better? I'm getting to think I should see what I could sell those rear speakers for.

 

 

since you haven't mentioned deadening the doors, i suggest you start there. correctly installing a pair of speakers should be the first priority. 

[Bryan G 2]

 

 

 

I am listening to everyone. I have a feeling if I raise the front crossover from 50+ to somewhere around 70+ I'll be able to turn them up louder,  then raise the top limit of the subs crossover to the same to fill in the rest... Well, that might make huge difference. Ever since I've been reading all these posts, I've been trying my car with just the fronts (using the fader) and it does sound full, I will have to admit I can't tell there are no rear speakers, until I bring them into the scene, but I don't bring them up enough to be able to tell there on, just to where is sounds fuller, but I'm debating, yea, it sound fuller, but does it sound better? I'm getting to think I should see what I could sell those rear speakers for.

 

 

since you haven't mentioned deadening the doors, i suggest you start there. correctly installing a pair of speakers should be the first priority. 

 

This is really good stuff, thanks.

Something that has bothered me is that I couldn't get the proper adapters for the door speakers, so they are mounted right to the door then there is a 3 to 4 inch gap before the door panel, I know this is killing sound. I want to get something to make the speakers stand off the door and go past the panel, then cut the door panel so the sound doesn't go through the cheap grill on the door. I just don't know where to get this adapter.

 

next, I need to learn how to deaden the door.

 

Last, here is where I need an opinion.I was thinking of using my 4 channel amp just on the front. I was thinking of removing he crossover that came with speakers, then hook the tweeters to the front channel and the woofers to he rear, then I can cross over the 6 1/2" speakers with the active crossover in the amp and just buy an active crossover for the tweeters on the front channel. Sound right?

[altoncustomtech 773]

That would be exactly what running "active" is. You'll need either a HU or an external DSP to do it properly though. For something that can do not just the crossover capabilities that you need but also time alignment and other processing the Pioneer 80PRS and the Clarion CZ702 are great places to start and learn with. I personally love the Clarion (am currently using one in my Jimmy) for several reasons but the main reason is because it can be picked up for $150 or less.  The next step up would be something like the MiniDSP or the MiniDSP based units such as the Soundstream Synthesis, the PPI DEQ.8, or the Zapco DSP Z8.  They're all a fair bit more costly than the HU options but in the long run offer so much more control abilities and options than any HU currently on the market can offer.

 

As for the speaker adapter, you're going to have to hone your fabrication skills. Exactly what you're describing you want to do to your doors is exactly what I did in my Jimmy. I have a link to the build log for it in my signature if you're wanting to take the time to look at how I did mine.  You're right, the factory grill definitely hurts response and the space between the door panel and the speaker is also not helping.  Short term solution would be to take some foam and cut a couple of rings to go around the speaker and seal it's path directly to the factory opening in the door panel.  That would eliminate the problems in response from the sound being able to wonder around behind the panel at will until you were able to complete a new set of baffles through the door panel.

I'm glad to see you're opening yourself up to the advice that's been given. When I first joined a few years ago I was in the same boat as you. The more I learned the more I realized I didn't know nearly as much as I thought/wished I did, lol. It's hard to let go of the knowledge that we think we know is gospel and accept that everything (or most of it) we've known and taught and have been taught over the years is inaccurate or completely false.  I too also always ran rears to get that "full and enveloped" sound.  After a little time on here and some testing and a little reworking I've come to realize (as you likely will) that rears do nothing but hurt the overall response.  

 

EDIT:  Added some stuff since my first response was typed on my mobile and I hate typing much on there.  Also, the best information (and some of the best products) you can find on the web about sound deadening can be found at SoundDeadenerShowdown.com

[///M5 2,833]

The not as full with just fronts is highlighting the install issue. First step is to fix that. IF you want to learn about deadening go here: http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/

As for your bookshelf comment, good ones don't have a bunch of speakers. Marketing departments, not engineers add them to shitty ones. Heck the ones in my office don't even have a tweeter and unless you have some real money in cans they sound better than headphones.

Inteference can be constructive and destructive. It will create all sorts of pits and mountains in your frequency response. WAY worse in a car as well with all the reflective and strange spaces.