opinions on system parts

[ncc74656 2]

the following parts are what i have been looking at using in my system, does anyone have any thoughts (good or bad) on the choices here.

I have a few amps lying around that all have pass through (eclipse, audiobahn, alpine) so one of them will be used in this configuration for the remaining speakers.

2 JL ZR800-CW 8" midbass driver to be built in a glass enclosure in my lower doors.

2 Hertz ML700 2.75" midranges to be glassed in my extreme upper door and angled at the drivers position.

possibly 2 focal or hertz tweets, i have 2 alpine R tweets now that i think work very well so ill start with them and if they work well in this setup then great but if not ill swap to a different product.

a polk PAD4000.4 4 channel amp (with out pass through) for 2 of the speakers (mid bass and mid range i think). at circuit city we always talked about how great polk audio was (back in 06) but i did hear some things about them being made my PPI who is owned by directed and there quality having gone down the shitter in recent years. is there any truth to that?

ill be using the active crossovers on the amp itself and im grabbing a 1/3 octave EQ that (if needed) ill use to balance things out.

the subs will be Fi (i think either SP4 or teams but maybe BL). i have yet to work out the enclosure but what do you guys think of the parts above?

[cloud77 28]

Yes, polk sucks once again.

[Impious 1,476]

Yes, polk sucks once again.

I wouldn't say that. Those mini amps have the same board used by a dozen other companies, including Hertz. They work just fine.

[Impious 1,476]

the following parts are what i have been looking at using in my system, does anyone have any thoughts (good or bad) on the choices here.I have a few amps lying around that all have pass through (eclipse, audiobahn, alpine) so one of them will be used in this configuration for the remaining speakers.2 JL ZR800-CW 8" midbass driver to be built in a glass enclosure in my lower doors.2 Hertz ML700 2.75" midranges to be glassed in my extreme upper door and angled at the drivers position.possibly 2 focal or hertz tweets, i have 2 alpine R tweets now that i think work very well so ill start with them and if they work well in this setup then great but if not ill swap to a different product.a polk PAD4000.4 4 channel amp (with out pass through) for 2 of the speakers (mid bass and mid range i think). at circuit city we always talked about how great polk audio was (back in 06) but i did hear some things about them being made my PPI who is owned by directed and there quality having gone down the shitter in recent years. is there any truth to that?ill be using the active crossovers on the amp itself and im grabbing a 1/3 octave EQ that (if needed) ill use to balance things out.the subs will be Fi (i think either SP4 or teams but maybe BL). i have yet to work out the enclosure but what do you guys think of the parts above?

I think for your first active system you should not go 3-way, it's too complicated. I also think for your first active system you are spending too much on the drivers. Last, I think trying to go active with only the amp's crossovers and an analog EQ is a giant waste of time and effort and even more of a reason not to go 3-way. For proper imaging & sound staging and ultimately the best sound you will absolutely need time alignment, which you won't be able to do with your setup.

If you are planning to go active, buy less expensive speakers to start and learn with. Save additional money by going 2-way, 3-way will turn out sounding like shit when you are a novice and you'll drive yourself insane trying to figure it out. You won't learn anything with it because you'll be chasing your tail the whole time. And spend that saved money on a decent active head unit or an external digital processor and throw out the idea of just using the amp's crossovers with an analog EQ.

So in short, scrap your plan and start over. You were getting in over your head and the plan for the processing was not good at all.

[ncc74656 2]

i am perfectly fine getting in over my head. also its not my first active, i run bi amp with a KX3 now. can you recomend a good digital processor? the only one i have found is the rockford 3 sixty and ive been told its WAY more of a unit than i will need for my application. is it a bad idea to use the cross overs on amps for bi/tri amped systems?

i want to go 3 way as i do not believe it is possible to get the mid bass i want with a 6.5" driver and i would like to place my mids at a more directional location than the bottom of the doors so to that end it makes sense to use a smaller mid up high.

[SpeakerBoy 64]

How are you gonna ask a question and tell some of the most knowledgeable people on the board they are wrong. Personally I ask questions when I'm aiming to learn. So what are you here for?

Try reading what they say more carefully. Starting off on level ten makes for a hard game.

Edited February 23, 2014 by SpeakerBoy

[ncc74656 2]

this is what i am saying - i want to go 3 way active and i want to get the correct parts to do so. i am looking for way to accomplish this and do not intend to go back to a 2 way system or a passive cross over as i have done that before and my goal is to learn more about active setups. i will not learn anything about what does or does not work with out doing it. I am not saying that impious is wrong in his information, I am saying that i do not intend to heed his recommendation to not go 3 way active. I do not care if i spend a few bucks more on a system that does not work out as well as i want to start with, i have no issue with buying a few different parts until i get the results i want as i am more in this to learn how things work together than i am getting things right the first try. I understand how coax and 2 way systems work but i have not done a 3 way yet and thus i want to go down a 3 way path.

in regards to my personal audio system I need better mid range, period. i am currently running PWX crachendo 10" which do not have great frequency linearity, they are not very efficient and take a massive amount of power, my 2 channel amp that is powering them is failing and needs to be replaced.

so i have been told a few times that an analog EQ is not the best for any application, impious's recommendation is to get an all in one digital unit. if i could find one i would research them but i can not locate digital processors for car audio. i know of 2, one by JL that is some OEM integration thing and the 3 sixty that is some 300 channel EQ that is way more than i need. does anyone make something in between?

id buy a DEH80PRS but if im going 3 way it only has 1 front out and then 1 sub, the third is a rear out and thus i dont think that would work for alignment if i used it for a 4 channel amp through my KX3. so i think it would be a waste on my part to buy the deck when the deck i have now is just fine and i need better control anyway (perhaps not better control as much as more front stage outputs).

edit: what is the intended use of a POT style EQ? whether it be a 5 channel or a 30 channel what are they used for if they do not have the capability to properly balance an active 2 or 3 way setup properly? are they normally used in conjunction with other types of processors that handle things like time alignment, phase, cross over, ect? or are they just outdated tech these days?

Edited February 23, 2014 by ncc74656

[ncc74656 2]

i just came across a place called miniDSP... they appear to have processors for 4 way system for 300 bucks so about half the cost of the rockford. they have less features but thats sort of what im after. anyone ever heard of them or used them? the setup and options look pretty damn good.

miniDSP 2x8 kit is what i found in my searches.

edit: i forgot to ask, if not the JL mid bass then who would you recommend? i was looking around but so many places say "mid bass" but then list a response curve up to 5KH wich is a mid range speaker... not a mid bass. i think Rockford had some mid bass guys but they are only a few bucks cheaper than the JL's. i found the JL's for 130 a piece online. i could go with a HL70 midrange from hertz but i cant find them online. what 3-4" mid range would you recommend?

edit 2: the kicker 650.4 (if kicker is still a good and solid brand) would be fine for my mid range and bass i would think. then i could pick up a 75X2 for tweeters that has super high S/N and very clean power since small distortion in bass is next to impossible to hear. that would avoid polk audio if they are going down hill.

Edited February 23, 2014 by ncc74656

[puscifer2 27]

Try madisound.com seems to be one of the more popular sites. I'm sure there's more options but that's the only one popping into my head right now.

[lithium 358]

 ncc74656, on 22 Feb 2014 - 10:04 PM, said:

this is what i am saying - i want to go 3 way active and i want to get the correct parts to do so. i am looking for way to accomplish this and do not intend to go back to a 2 way system or a passive cross over as i have done that before and my goal is to learn more about active setups. i will not learn anything about what does or does not work with out doing it. I am not saying that impious is wrong in his information, I am saying that i do not intend to heed his recommendation to not go 3 way active. I do not care if i spend a few bucks more on a system that does not work out as well as i want to start with, i have no issue with buying a few different parts until i get the results i want as i am more in this to learn how things work together than i am getting things right the first try. I understand how coax and 2 way systems work but i have not done a 3 way yet and thus i want to go down a 3 way path.

 

 

in regards to my personal audio system I need better mid range, period. i am currently running PWX crachendo 10" which do not have great frequency linearity, they are not very efficient and take a massive amount of power, my 2 channel amp that is powering them is failing and needs to be replaced.

 

 

 

i'd dont agree that you've learned enough from a legitimate active 2 way install if this is all you have to say about your past experience. my first 2 way active install was running pg rsd 6.5 component set active. and I spend months tweaking and improving the build before I knew what upgrades i need to make. my next 2way set up was peerless sls 8s in the doors and a 3" fullranger in the pillars. after tweaking again for months I decided I wanted to step up to a 3 way front stage. I'll be reinstalling that setup into my new car in the coming weeks, effectively starting over. 

 

 

so i have been told a few times that an analog EQ is not the best for any application, impious's recommendation is to get an all in one digital unit. if i could find one i would research them but i can not locate digital processors for car audio. i know of 2, one by JL that is some OEM integration thing and the 3 sixty that is some 300 channel EQ that is way more than i need. does anyone make something in between?

 

 

most of the digital car audio processors are really overpriced or garbage with the exception being headunits. even then most hu's can only do 2way + sub.  

 

 

id buy a DEH80PRS but if im going 3 way it only has 1 front out and then 1 sub, the third is a rear out and thus i dont think that would work for alignment if i used it for a 4 channel amp through my KX3. so i think it would be a waste on my part to buy the deck when the deck i have now is just fine and i need better control anyway (perhaps not better control as much as more front stage outputs).

 

 

that unit has 2 modes. the first is front, back, sub. the other mode is high, mid, and sub. so it can really only do a 2 way plus sub. unless you run the tweeter really close the mid and used some other crossover to handle them.. not the best idea. 

 

 

edit: what is the intended use of a POT style EQ? whether it be a 5 channel or a 30 channel what are they used for if they do not have the capability to properly balance an active 2 or 3 way setup properly? are they normally used in conjunction with other types of processors that handle things like time alignment, phase, cross over, ect? or are they just outdated tech these days?

 

 

 

mostly outdated considering you can buy a used alpine hu like the  9855, 9835, etc for under 100 bucks. 

 

i just came across a place called miniDSP... they appear to have processors for 4 way system for 300 bucks so about half the cost of the rockford. they have less features but thats sort of what im after. anyone ever heard of them or used them? the setup and options look pretty damn good.

miniDSP 2x8 kit is what i found in my searches.

 

minidsp is really good but they're not exactly made for car audio (low preamp output). they did/are working with ppi and soundstream their units. I think adrian is picking one up for his mazda install. I heard you can control them from your phone or they're planning to have that feature. if they can add that feature then I think it would a really great unit. the current "problem" with minidps is that you need a laptop to make any changes. this is why we keep recommending a headunit. 

 

I run two 2x4 units currently. it was cheaper than a single 8 channel unit but slightly larger pain in the ass to work with. 

 

edit: i forgot to ask, if not the JL mid bass then who would you recommend? i was looking around but so many places say "mid bass" but then list a response curve up to 5KH wich is a mid range speaker... not a mid bass. i think Rockford had some mid bass guys but they are only a few bucks cheaper than the JL's. i found the JL's for 130 a piece online. i could go with a HL70 midrange from hertz but i cant find them online. what 3-4" mid range would you recommend?

 

 

here's where I try to talk you into a 2 way build.

 

but before that, STOP looking at car audio speakers. they are overpriced and/or garbage. example A - sb acoustic  ... arc audio . i'm not saying these are the same drivers. however,  SB builds a few drivers for various companies so why not buy straight from them at 1/10 the cost. 

 

those jl mids, even at 130 a piece, cost more than my entire front stage drivers, lol. 

 

Ok, here's the pitch. You're apparently looking for big midbass and solid midrange. IMO, the best idea would to go with a large midbass + 3" full range. (someone in the forum is also doing this build right now, forget who, check out their build/testing). 

 

pro's:

• big midbass
• single driver (fullrange) playing the majority of the spectrum 
• easier to tune 

con's

• full range drivers must be on axis or near to it to avoid top end roll off 
• midbass drivers might shake your door panels apart  
• probably something else but i cant remember.. 

so its not a 3 way front stage. but what are you going to miss out on? 

 

adding that 4th channel  for a 3 way +  sub makes everything costlier, more time consuming in terms of tuning, and more difficult to install IF done correctly. slapping some drivers in stock locations is a terrible idea. i'll probably spends hours and hours just aiming drivers for my install. Alternatively, a fullranger + midbass install is really simple. midbass in the doors with tons of deadening and full rangers in the A pillars/ sail pails aimed at your skull (more or less). 

 

 

 

edit 2: the kicker 650.4 (if kicker is still a good and solid brand) would be fine for my mid range and bass i would think. then i could pick up a 75X2 for tweeters that has super high S/N and very clean power since small distortion in bass is next to impossible to hear. that would avoid polk audio if they are going down hill. 

 

 

kicker is still great, though i really want to pick up two of the ppi 900.4 (or one of clones) to simplify my amp set up. if you have the kicker, I would bridge it to the midbass and use a small 2 channel for the full range drivers. 

[ncc74656 2]

the only name brand speakers ive ever bought were alpines so i was curious to see just how good/bad a JL would turn out to be. (we dont have the higher end JL on display at our local store) so that was one reason i was looking towards them. i bought those PWX's and they are loud at some frequnecies but have REALLY BAD linerarity... i was hoping i could spend a bit more and fix that.

i do really like how the minidsp looks and i saw that low prevolt out but if the gains on the amps are intended to simply match the inputs of hte RCA's would 2V really matter?

the speakers will not be in the factory location, when teh weather is above 60 here ill be fiberglassing pods for the mids high in the doors and then sealed door boxes for the mid bass.

i was looking for some speakers that may cost a bit more but have better audio properties. my goal is to rebuild my system for under 3500 if possible.

[lithium 358]

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/topic/60735-playing-around-with-some-new-toys-training-my-ears/?hl=fountek

 

some good discussion here, worth a read

[ncc74656 2]

ill give that a read. what do ya think of hte daytons? cheaper and according to some spec sheets they look to have very good liniar responce: http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-rs225-4-8-reference-woofer-4-ohm--295-376

hell to that end... i have 10" PWX's now, would i be better off going for 10" mid bass for 50-500hz or maybe the 8's would be better for that?

edit2: so many brands i have NEVER heard of... fountek? driver charts look great and the price is amazing...

Edited February 23, 2014 by ncc74656

[lithium 358]

the only name brand speakers ive ever bought were alpines so i was curious to see just how good/bad a JL would turn out to be. (we dont have the higher end JL on display at our local store) so that was one reason i was looking towards them. i bought those PWX's and they are loud at some frequnecies but have REALLY BAD linerarity... i was hoping i could spend a bit more and fix that.

 

 

makes zero sense to use car audio speakers in an active install. for example, if you're looking for a 8" midbass driver to cover 50-300hz something like the peerless sls 8" will shit all over those jl's. not even a contest. speakers like the pwx, these"car-pro audio" drivers... biggest joke to ever gain traction in car audio i've seen. granted i haven't been around very long at all. 

 

i do really like how the minidsp looks and i saw that low prevolt out but if the gains on the amps are intended to simply match the inputs of hte RCA's would 2V really matter?

 

 

its certainly able to do the job but that doesn't make it the best option. 

 

the speakers will not be in the factory location, when teh weather is above 60 here ill be fiberglassing pods for the mids high in the doors and then sealed door boxes for the mid bass.

 

 

you'll have no idea wether or not those are good locations without significant testing/aiming. 

 

i was looking for some speakers that may cost a bit more but have better audio properties. my goal is to rebuild my system for under 3500 if possible. 

 

 

 

thats tons of money. great thing about raw drives is that they are really cheap. that example above from sb acoustics vs the acr audio driver is an example. 

[lithium 358]

ill give that a read. what do ya think of hte daytons? cheaper and according to some spec sheets they look to have very good liniar responce: http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-rs225-4-8-reference-woofer-4-ohm--295-376

hell to that end... i have 10" PWX's now, would i be better off going for 10" mid bass for 50-500hz or maybe the 8's would be better for that?

edit2: so many brands i have NEVER heard of... fountek? driver charts look great and the price is amazing...

 

those daytons are ok but not the best midbass. more of a midrange. 

 

peerless sls 8s are monsters if you can fit them. 

 

lots of great 3" full rangers. 

 

fountek fe85's http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-3-fullrange/fountek-fe85-3-aluminum-cone-full-range/

 

i've used the ex88, very nice driver

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-3-fullrange/fountek-fr88ex-3-full-range/

 

also used these with the sls8 in my car. 

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-3-fullrange/peerless-830986-3-full-range/

 

tons of great fullrange drivers to play with. 

[ncc74656 2]

yea i am looking at those peerless now, id have to find a powerfull 4ohm amp to run those 8 ohm mids... but i doubt that will be an issue. suppose i could repair my eclipse and just use that stereo amp adn pick up a 4 channel for the mids/highs. *shrug*.

well if i look at the prices im looking at about 1600 for the sub amp (or maybe 500 if i run a second KX2500.1) and then another 700 for the Fi. add to that hte glasing material, MDF for a 25 gross cubic box and what ever else i need such as a 600.00 3 sixty or a 300.00 dsp. either way im already at 3K so...

[lithium 358]

the kicker 4 channel bridged to the sls will be fine. 

[Notorious97200 339]

I like the idea of an 8" midbass speaker with a small full-range one.

I need to try that. It seems way easier than a 3way system.

Thanks for this topic

Tuned in for more

[ncc74656 2]

after looking over the various speakers it seems that the cheaper ones are nearly identical to the really expensive ones. i wounder, does anyone have a list of who makes what brands? are speakers kinda like the batteries where even tho we have dozens of battery brands there are only a hand full of manufactures in the world who make them?

[altoncustomtech 773]

I have to say the 3" full range plus 8" dedicated midbass driver with a proper installation should easily outperform everything you've ever used in the past OP.  At this point in time I have the $13 Fountek FE85's in those old Logitech speaker boxes on the dash along with the Bravox 6.5's from the component set I had installed in the truck originally for testing.  I have the XCON crossed at 50hz, the Bravox's playing 60-300hz and the Fountek's running 250hz and up as of right now with only some cut in the EQ at 40hz and 125hz to keep the Bravox's playing clean.  I've never heard my music so detailed, so lively and with such even response.  The FE85's may be the cheapest model Fountek makes but they are still extremely good sounding drivers.  I've demoed the setup for several people including a guy who used to be an IASCA SQ judge back in the early 90's and they all give similar comments to my own.  Probably the one and best  way I know they're sincere is that just about every time I've demoed it to someone it was supposed to be just a quick listen.  They end up finding reason after reason to listen to song after song after song and a demo that should've taken 5 or 10 minutes turns into an hour.  

 

That's with a pair of $13 drivers and some cheesy 6.5" drivers.  I absolutely cannot wait to get the time to put the SLS 8's and the FR89EX's in and see what it can really do.  

[altoncustomtech 773]

I forgot to mention, I'm processing everything right now with the internal capabilities of a Clarion CZ702 HU and I'll be running the SLS 8's with a pair of Boston GT2125 amps.  I still haven't decided if I'm going to run the FR89's with the Focal Solid 2 or the Sundown 125.2 yet though.

[ncc74656 2]

that sounds great. to be clear i have no issue spending up to 120 a speaker if it gets me a better sound quality. seeing as the JL's are just paying for brand name it seems that the 50.00 speakers are the best choice. i say this to emphasize that hte 13.00 price point is great but if the 50 gets me that much more than so be it. the one thing i CAN NOT wrap my head around is the focals... they better come with a brick of gold for there price.

[lithium 358]

after looking over the various speakers it seems that the cheaper ones are nearly identical to the really expensive ones. i wounder, does anyone have a list of who makes what brands? are speakers kinda like the batteries where even tho we have dozens of battery brands there are only a hand full of manufactures in the world who make them?

 

in many cases the more expensive models use a more expensive cone material  for example. so the freq response will look similar but distortion or other properties of the driver might be better. good example would be to look at the tang band w4 drivers. 

 

http://www.parts-express.com/tang-band-w4-1337sd-4-titanium-driver--264-848

http://www.parts-express.com/tang-band-w4-1052sd-4-driver-4-ohm--264-828

http://www.parts-express.com/tang-band-w4-1320sj-4-bamboo-cone-driver--264-847

 

then you have the some models with a ferrite motor. 

 

your battery analogy is not really correct. different companies are not rebranding the same drivers. as far as I know these companies are all individual entities with some overlap. one example is tymphany which i think owns/manufacturer peerless, vifa and scan speak. but i assume there are only so many build houses around. 

Edited February 23, 2014 by lithium

[dyukduken 0]

Yes, polk sucks once again.

 

[mpunklil 0]

the following parts are what i have been looking at using in my system, does anyone have any thoughts (good or bad) on the choices here.

I have a few amps lying around that all have pass through (eclipse, audiobahn, alpine) so one of them will be used in this configuration for the remaining speakers.

2 JL ZR800-CW 8" midbass driver to be built in a glass enclosure in my lower doors.

2 Hertz ML700 2.75" midranges to be glassed in my extreme upper door and angled at the drivers position.

possibly 2 focal or hertz tweets, i have 2 alpine R tweets now that i think work very well so ill start with them and if they work well in this setup then great but if not ill swap to a different product.

a polk PAD4000.4 4 channel amp (with out pass through) for 2 of the speakers (mid bass and mid range i think). at circuit city we always talked about how great polk audio was (back in 06) but i did hear some things about them being made my PPI who is owned by directed and there quality having gone down the shitter in recent years. is there any truth to that?

ill be using the active crossovers on the amp itself and im grabbing a 1/3 octave EQ that (if needed) ill use to balance things out.

the subs will be Fi (i think either SP4 or teams but maybe BL). i have yet to work out the enclosure but what do you guys think of the parts above?

WAAAAAY TOO MANY INCONSISTENCIES with what you have and desire. First, buy yourself a Dayton WT3 so you at least know what the speakers you have ARE capable of...even if it comes w/ a output graph, every speaker has a different signature. THEN decide what you want for x-over points. THEN get yourself a legit processor. You are robbing peter to pay paul. Unless you have a spectrum analyzer, I would shoot for a pxa-h650 or ms-8 processor. Drop the coin, you will THANK yourself for years. If you want a stand alone crossover, keep an eye out on ebay for an old school JBL GTX-47. Theyre cheap, and they should have NEVER stopped making them. If all else fails, get an EQX and spend hundreds of dollars on drivers just because "they dont sound how I want"...btw, $400 for an MS-8 costs the same as blowing money on drivers