balance/SQ, lossless line voltage?

[puscifer2 27]

what are you on about copying and pasting? i have done no such thing. You have accused me twice now of copying and pasting what i type here and i assure you that what i have written here is from my own keyboard and not copied from other sources. frankly given the immeasurable inaccuracy of my assertions i am amazed that such an accusation would be made to begin with.

as for local shops being useless, most people do not know or care about what is or is not a good install. they simply wish to take there welfare check (or tax return this time of year) and get some "sick beats" in there car for a few hundred bucks and call it a day. Those who do wish to have quality audio seldom have the money for labor charges of a shop. not just ours but any shop for custom work, same could be said for lift kits or body kits for hot rods. It is a VERY narrow market of people whom are willing to invest the time or money required for anything but a basic install walking through the doors of my shop. I have not been in the shop long enough to comment on audio season but the same "class" of people who i see in the shop are also my tenants and believe me when i tell you they do not in any way fill the consumer base required for a shop to be properly educated on advanced audio. My understanding is that the only shop around that possesses such a clientele and employee expertise base is automotive concepts.

That i am aware of there is no course or schooling dedicated to the field of car audio, it is a field in which you are able to learn 12V principles and the rest comes from experience or brand training's in which much of the information is misleading anyway to sell their particular product.

I searched for eclipse products and found some older head units. I have NEVER seen a single din deck with such features before. 8V pre amps, 11 band EQ's, 6 pre amp outs.... i have never seen a pioneer, kenwood, or sony deck with such features. having said this i have yet to find an eclipse deck with USB and BT, do they exist or did the company shut down before such features were common place?

I have been told that installation is important but i have yet to see any type of install other than speakers screwed to a door and a sub box placed in the back seat. the goal for most installs is to replace the blown out speakers and head unit with some boss 12" lcd head unit and sony explodes. selling a couple hundred in product and a couple hundred in labor for installs. i have yet to be involved in any design beyond a door panel removal.

First go through some build logs on here. Check out sound deadener showdown, and then research the meanings of these parameters you type. And then research the parameters you haven't yet mentioned. Along with the interactions with each other. After all that we may get somewhere. This has nothing to do with all the time alignments and eq and such you still need to learn to pull off your install. Btw I assure you as an owner of a pioneer 80 prs it will do more than you will need it to as a beginner in this whole process.

Edited March 2, 2014 by puscifer2

[ncc74656 2]

looking through that list of decks that lithium posted on the previous page... 1200.00 single dins? ive never seen such expensive decks before. a 1500.00 double din sure ive seen that, but wow. even some of the more reserved decks on the list are 300.00 for a 2 way with sub. im trying to think about what is the best choice here and the mini dsp is cheaper but provides less voltage out (2V). however everything i have been told on here makes me believe this does not matter. they sell a noise filter (looks to just be some caps and diods) wich assuming it does as they claim that should filter noise. im not sure what the right route to go is (if there is such a thing) but the dsp sure looks like a much better choice than replacing a head unit that presently functions perfectly well as a media player. the head units that have the built in DSP's appear to be 2-3 times the cost and many of them are only available second hand.

i do not what to replace any speakers until i get some sort of processor installed. i want to have a solid base to modify from and i know what my stereo sounds like now and i know what its weaknesses are. it makes sense to me that i should process before i replace so as to keep a frame of reference.

presently writing down information i read and am told is about all i can do. i have not experimented with enough real world equipment to be able to understand everything. reading is not understanding, doing is.

[puscifer2 27]

So again, walk before you run. Jumping into the most complex thing you can think of with out the baby steps is going to be disastrous. Start simple and work your way up. Become excellent at one part of this install and then upgrade to the next level. Start with a proper install of your current equipment. I bet you never knew it would sound as good as it does after being installed right. Seriously a $ 20 speaker properly installed will kill a $ 300 speaker thrown in. A lot of people need hands on experience to learn. But if you don't know why basics are needed, hands on works against you.

[ncc74656 2]

what sources are out there to explain "proper installs"? are we talking about custom fabrication of fiber glass enclosures and processors to balance the install or are you talking about making baffles or installing sound deadening?

the door panel is removed, the factory speaker is removed, the wires are cut to length, soldered to teh back of the new speaker terminals, the speaker is screwed back into its place (a wooden mounting bracket is fabricated if required), and the door panel is placed back on. this is a speaker install to me.

come to think of it i have not even installed a component set at work yet. even those people who's cars have one factory end up buying coaxes due to cost. to save on cost i have seen it recommended to replace the mid range of a component set with a coax speaker and leave the tweeter hooked up on a factory system. this to me makes little sense but i dunno. i was always under the impression that in a passive setup you had to match tweets with mids and in a coax speaker you get distortion from the tweet due to it being in the middle of the cone of a bass driver?

Edited March 2, 2014 by ncc74656

[puscifer2 27]

Cld, mlv, acoustastuff? Sounddeadenershowdown.com should be your best friend right about now. They have all the breakdowns of what does what and WHY it does it. That is part 1 of your install, more to come if your really going beyond a " typical " install. Processing, placement among others are WAY out of your reach right now.

[ncc74656 2]

i see that site lists the thicker sound deadener, we sell the dynomat stuff at work but ive been told to only sell the rubber backed aluminum as its all that really does anything. the thicker padding is rather useless in vehicles, the classic rubber and aluminum is more bang for your buck.

according to the website thats not true?

i ask as it seems that website is educating on a product they sell which makes me not inclined to assume there is a fair amount of misinformation on the site in favor of selling there product.

Edited March 2, 2014 by ncc74656

[puscifer2 27]

To add to your edit. Replacing the factory mid with a coax is to keep impedance the same as it was when it came in. Which isn't really true but hey why not. It's not really bad for it Seems like the highs would need serious tweaking to sound respectable at all... I wouldn't say the tweeter on a coax distorts as much as is it is deflected by the woofer. Think about it a much more powerful sound wave will over power the smaller sound wave. In a customer car they probably could care less as long as it has sound coming out of it. The goals you have been reaching for will have to have all this accounted for. Another reason to start small. Reflections and staging will be crucial to your end game. My responses may not be the most scientific or thorough but I'm trying to not overwhelm you too much. There's a shit ton more that could be covered. Some of which I would keep my posts out of since I haven't made it that far into this stuff either.

Edited March 2, 2014 by puscifer2

[lithium 358]

 

 

looking through that list of decks that lithium posted on the previous page... 1200.00 single dins? ive never seen such expensive decks before. a 1500.00 double din sure ive seen that, but wow. even some of the more reserved decks on the list are 300.00 for a 2 way with sub.

 

most of the units on that list are not made anymore. i'd get a used eclipse, alpine, or pioneer unit. I'll show you some examples. 

 

check these out. hunt your craigslist and you'll be able to find the old alpine units for 50 bucks probably

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alpine-CDA-9813-CD-Receiver-Tilt-Face-Sirius-XM-Ready-Detachable-Face-/331142546104?pt=Car_Audio_In_Dash_Receivers&hash=item4d19a242b8

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alpine-CDA-9855-CD-Player-MP3-In-Dash-Receiver-/151244842294?pt=Car_Audio_In_Dash_Receivers&hash=item2336e52536

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alpine-CDA-9853-CD-Player-With-Glidetouch-Control-/121285872174?pt=Car_Audio_In_Dash_Receivers&hash=item1c3d338a2e

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALPINE-CDA-9886-CD-player-WMA-MP3-SIRIUS-XM-IPOD-HD-READY-9887-117-/271408058271?pt=Car_Audio_In_Dash_Receivers&hash=item3f312e4f9f

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Eclipse-CD7000-Head-Unit-with-Sirius-Satellite-Receiver-/261406874436?pt=Car_Audio_In_Dash_Receivers&hash=item3cdd105b44

 

if you really need hd audio. here is the alpine adapter. Though, as m5 pointed out, its a shit source for music. just take that money and buy cd's. 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XTUA-T550HD&_nkw=TUA-T550HD&_sacat=0&_from=R40

 

 

 

 im trying to think about what is the best choice here and the mini dsp is cheaper but provides less voltage out (2V). however everything i have been told on here makes me believe this does not matter. they sell a noise filter (looks to just be some caps and diods) wich assuming it does as they claim that should filter noise. im not sure what the right route to go is (if there is such a thing) but the dsp sure looks like a much better choice than replacing a head unit that presently functions perfectly well as a media player. the head units that have the built in DSP's appear to be 2-3 times the cost and many of them are only available second hand.

 

minidsp will be more expensive when you factor in all the extra time you'll spend fucking with it. even with the voltage regulator it still susceptible to noise and other issues that make using it a pain. its not a fun experience tuning at all.

 

swapping in a headunit will literally take a few minutes (or longer if you need to run dedicated power/ground, which i recommend doing).

 

 

 

 

i do not what to replace any speakers until i get some sort of processor installed. i want to have a solid base to modify from and i know what my stereo sounds like now and i know what its weaknesses are. it makes sense to me that i should process before i replace so as to keep a frame of reference.

 

this assumes they were installed correctly/properly, which i doubt they are. 

[lithium 358]

what sources are out there to explain "proper installs"? are we talking about custom fabrication of fiber glass enclosures and processors to balance the install or are you talking about making baffles or installing sound deadening?

the door panel is removed, the factory speaker is removed, the wires are cut to length, soldered to teh back of the new speaker terminals, the speaker is screwed back into its place (a wooden mounting bracket is fabricated if required), and the door panel is placed back on. this is a speaker install to me.

come to think of it i have not even installed a component set at work yet. even those people who's cars have one factory end up buying coaxes due to cost. to save on cost i have seen it recommended to replace the mid range of a component set with a coax speaker and leave the tweeter hooked up on a factory system. this to me makes little sense but i dunno. i was always under the impression that in a passive setup you had to match tweets with mids and in a coax speaker you get distortion from the tweet due to it being in the middle of the cone of a bass driver?

 

i'll post some pics from my build log. or look for some build logs that do a good job of showing basic install techniques. including deadening, etc. 

[lithium 358]

i see that site lists the thicker sound deadener, we sell the dynomat stuff at work but ive been told to only sell the rubber backed aluminum as its all that really does anything. the thicker padding is rather useless in vehicles, the classic rubber and aluminum is more bang for your buck.

according to the website thats not true?

i ask as it seems that website is educating on a product they sell which makes me not inclined to assume there is a fair amount of misinformation on the site in favor of selling there product.

please just read sounddeadenershowdown.com. The physics behind sound deadening is well understood, Don really did a great job at presenting a method for deadening a vehicle for people who aren't physicists or engineers. 

[lithium 358]

after you're done reading sds check out this buildlog

 

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/topic/44181-install-log-on-the-ssa-mazdas/

 

here is an install i did in my bro's car. wish i took better pictures

 

somethings to note are the simple baffles used for the mid, mdf covered in several coats of truck bedliner. also, the full range drivers on the dash were wrapped in a towel and i played around with aiming for a while. later I made a mounting ring and spent quite a long time trying to get them aimed as I liked. hot glue and wooden dowels are a pain. Here is a slightly better method for creating the baffle using heat sensitive abs. 

 

One other thing, the access holes in door were not sealed in this install. Don suggests that mlv (which i did install but I might have forget to take pictures of) creates a barrier to isolate the rear wave (sound produced from the rear of the driver). I went along with it in this case but for my personal car I seal those holes with fiberglass. 

Edited March 2, 2014 by lithium

[puscifer2 27]

i see that site lists the thicker sound deadener, we sell the dynomat stuff at work but ive been told to only sell the rubber backed aluminum as its all that really does anything. the thicker padding is rather useless in vehicles, the classic rubber and aluminum is more bang for your buck.

according to the website thats not true?

i ask as it seems that website is educating on a product they sell which makes me not inclined to assume there is a fair amount of misinformation on the site in favor of selling there product.

It says on the site there are other places to purchase this stuff. Yes mlv and the like have sales pitches about it not stinking up the car and whatever. The point was read up on the "why it works". Buy someone else's product it doesn't matter. That site has very useful info on why and how. And research to back it all up. Mitigating outside noise is key to everything else. The quieter inside the car the louder and more detailed your source will become.

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

what sources are out there to explain "proper installs"? are we talking about custom fabrication of fiber glass enclosures and processors to balance the install or are you talking about making baffles or installing sound deadening?

the door panel is removed, the factory speaker is removed, the wires are cut to length, soldered to teh back of the new speaker terminals, the speaker is screwed back into its place (a wooden mounting bracket is fabricated if required), and the door panel is placed back on. this is a speaker install to me.

come to think of it i have not even installed a component set at work yet. even those people who's cars have one factory end up buying coaxes due to cost. to save on cost i have seen it recommended to replace the mid range of a component set with a coax speaker and leave the tweeter hooked up on a factory system. this to me makes little sense but i dunno. i was always under the impression that in a passive setup you had to match tweets with mids and in a coax speaker you get distortion from the tweet due to it being in the middle of the cone of a bass driver?

I highly doubt you will ever see a proper installation either. I've been in the 12 volt industry for 12 years and I have not found many competent installers. But it's not their fault it is the way the industry works. The average shop charges about 90 bucks an hour in labor. It takes me a good half a day to set up a proper infinite baffle coaxial install and I have over a decade of experience and a ton of tools and jigs for damn near ever vehicle prior to 2005. Now how many customers are willing to spend $500 plus in installation costs on a set of coaxial? It's just not gonna happen.

Th loudspeaker cookbook is the best source for information. Period. There is no one else on earth that has designed, built, tested, and installed more product than Vance. Period. And the great thing about his books like any good author is he lists ALL of his references down to the page so if you do t understand or want to learn more about a particular subject the reference is listed right there.

[lithium 358]

 

 

what sources are out there to explain "proper installs"? are we talking about custom fabrication of fiber glass enclosures and processors to balance the install or are you talking about making baffles or installing sound deadening?

 

i mostly learned (and still learning) through build logs and discussion. 

 

take installing a woofer in a car door for example. here is how I do it. 

 

1. build a baffle (driver motor must clear window)
2. waterproof baffle
3. apply butyl rope between baffle and door
4. bolt the baffle to the door
5. create fiberglass panels to seal all access holes in the doors (separates the rear wave produced by the rear side of the speaker) 
6. sound deaden door as per SDS
7. optional, stuff 1lb+ of modeling clay or duct seal around the baffle

 

 

 

 

the door panel is removed, the factory speaker is removed, the wires are cut to length, soldered to teh back of the new speaker terminals, the speaker is screwed back into its place (a wooden mounting bracket is fabricated if required), and the door panel is placed back on. this is a speaker install to me.

 

it hard for me to call that an install. ugh

 

but your shops not alone. here's a sad example of what could be an acceptable install. 

 

• speaker baffle - check
• sound deadener or CDL on the door panel and trim panel - check
• sealed access hole - WTF!? closed cell foam wont doing jack shit to seal those holes. 

that install probably cost the car owner 1000+ in equipment alone. I like other aspects of that shop's builds but every time I see them pretend to seal the access holes with ccf... just sad. 

 

 

 

come to think of it i have not even installed a component set at work yet. even those people who's cars have one factory end up buying coaxes due to cost. to save on cost i have seen it recommended to replace the mid range of a component set with a coax speaker and leave the tweeter hooked up on a factory system. this to me makes little sense but i dunno. i was always under the impression that in a passive setup you had to match tweets with mids and in a coax speaker you get distortion from the tweet due to it being in the middle of the cone of a bass driver? 

 

leaving the old tweeter connected makes zero sense. just complete laziness on the installer's part. 

 

and more bad info on coax speakers i see. you're right that there is some interaction between the sound produced by the mid and the mechanism that holds the tweeter. I'm not sure on all the details but i suspect that there is at least a frequency dependency on the interaction and as long as the woofer isn't playing too high you won't see any negative effects. Coax speakers actually have some advantages over a component set because the tweeter is mounted with the woofer. you should not have a problem looking this info up. 

Edited March 2, 2014 by lithium

[///M5 2,833]

i do not what to replace any speakers until i get some sort of processor installed. i want to have a solid base to modify from and i know what my stereo sounds like now and i know what its weaknesses are. it makes sense to me that i should process before i replace so as to keep a frame of reference.

Holy fucking backwards. You don't need a processor unless your ears tell you something can be improved on your speakers. Absolutely pointless to have adjustments you don't need to use and in your case that would be super detrimental.

[///M5 2,833]

i ask as it seems that website is educating on a product they sell which makes me not inclined to assume there is a fair amount of misinformation on the site in favor of selling there product.

There is no selling propaganda on his site. Exactly why it was recommended. Probably the most helpful vendor in car audio of all time. I'd actually bet he'd rather not sell you stuff though as you keep drawing the wrong conclusions and he won't recommend the wrong approach to you which of course you will ignore and do what you were going to anyways.

[///M5 2,833]

Th loudspeaker cookbook is the best source for information. Period. There is no one else on earth that has designed, built, tested, and installed more product than Vance. Period. And the great thing about his books like any good author is he lists ALL of his references down to the page so if you do t understand or want to learn more about a particular subject the reference is listed right there.

And he isn't going to make it though the foreword without questions that are misinterpreted. It isn't light reading by any means.

[lithium 358]

 

Th loudspeaker cookbook is the best source for information. Period. There is no one else on earth that has designed, built, tested, and installed more product than Vance. Period. And the great thing about his books like any good author is he lists ALL of his references down to the page so if you do t understand or want to learn more about a particular subject the reference is listed right there.

And he isn't going to make it though the foreword without questions that are misinterpreted. It isn't light reading by any means.

 

bcae1.com is a bit more noob friendly. 

[ncc74656 2]

im about 1/4 into the loud speaker cook book and 1/3 into the bae1 website.

 

I defiantly need new speakers, the crachendos sound like crap so I want to install a processor first so I can have a comparison while changing things and installing new speakers.

[puscifer2 27]

What crescendo speakers do you have? If it's the cz series that's the same ones I run. They are awesome. Fix your install. I'm not active or anything super fancy, but they are more than capable of being a great set for anyone in the early stages of all the stuff we can accomplish in this hobby. What don't you like about them? There is going to be a way to make them sound a lot better than they do right now with just a little effort.

[ncc74656 2]

they are 10" mid range. perhaps they would work for midbass but as a mid range speaker they are very lack luster, also there mounting depth is so large I must space my windows out to make them fit with a 3/4" sheet of MDF on the door spacing them forward.

[puscifer2 27]

Pro audio drivers huh? Like I said fix your install. Pro audio almost always need a ported enclosure built to have any kind of mid bass. You probably just saw a 10" woofer and thought it would be awesome. FIX YOUR INSTALL!!!

[ncc74656 2]

that's exactly what I did. I was unable to find any specs from crachendo on there speakers so was unable to build an enclosure to spec but I did play around with some sealed boxes. I want to downsize my door speakers and get some that are more sensitive and efficient so as to not take so much power with such a huge magnet. also the general consensus on the forum was that these speakers were shit.

[puscifer2 27]

Pro audio is just about as efficient as it gets. That's pretty much their whole design. The speakers themselves aren't shit, install is. A10" will make life difficult but still doable with install and an eq. The easier way to fix it for you is yes start over. Research first don't just pick a speaker because someone said it sounded good. Try some sets at your shop and see what you like.

[lithium 358]

 

 

that's exactly what I did. I was unable to find any specs from crachendo on there speakers so was unable to build an enclosure to spec but I did play around with some sealed boxes.

 they dont publish specs so its a hard to say what they're suppose to be installed in. these car audio marketed "pro audio" drivers are another stupid fad. 

 

 

 

I want to downsize my door speakers and get some that are more sensitive and efficient so as to not take so much power with such a huge magnet.

 

sensitivity and efficiency are not parameters to worry about in themselves. in car audio, power is cheap as hell. 

 

you need to just get a component set and start off at square one and iterate from there