Mid-Bass Driver Selection

[nadcicle 77]

I don't see as huge of an issue on the weight of the driver as long as you mount it as far forward close to the hinges as possible. It's adding in and deadener and fiberglass that will ultimately add over weight that will get those hinges sagging over time. Especially since this is meant for demoing with the doors open all day. The more weight you can shift towards the front the better so you don't get them sagging. It'd be awesome to see a nice pvc piped port snaked through the rear of the door too!

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

The EA driver you had chosen will blow that driver out of the water in ALL aspects.  Eric S. must have stock in that company or gets a kick back. I take it nothing we discussed here, in PM or the chat sunk in if you are going to grab driver B just because Eric said you should. YOU really need to understand why you are doing things, not just go with this persons or that persons suggestions.

[95Honda 486]

I haven't looked far enough back in this thread, but have you considered any of the Neo drivers from B&C/RCF?  They have  8"s that are very efficient, has decent Xmax and are low weight...

 

Thing that is kind of important to remember is that all the efficiency you are going to get with the 12's is going to go in the drain for you on the drivers side with it being so far off axis.  

 

Wouldn't be nearly as bad with an 8"...

[Sencheezy 689]

The EA driver you had chosen will blow that driver out of the water in ALL aspects. Eric S. must have stock in that company or gets a kick back. I take it nothing we discussed here, in PM or the chat sunk in if you are going to grab driver B just because Eric said you should. YOU really need to understand why you are doing things, not just go with this persons or that persons suggestions.

Could you perhaps graph these out so I can compare, or tell me why you believe the the AE will blow this one away? It's not too late for me to cancel the order.

[gprestonmoto 89]

Eric recommended a few different options. I find that pretty juvenile to jump to the conclusion to use a driver because he has stock in them. I spoke with Eric, asking for 3-4 recommendations for a 12" driver to be installed in a door in IB configuration or having 2 cubic feet to work with. I'm not saying that the AE's are a good option too, I'm just saying there's no need to fling mud at someone who has had such an enormous impact on the car audio hobby.

[lithium 358]

I'd like to hear the reasoning for why this is good choice. seems like a smaller driver with a larger bandwidth and better off axis response would have fit the install better. 

[95Honda 486]

Beyma makes a really high quality driver.  I have been using them in one form or another for quite a while...

 

I still don't understand a 12 though...  A 10 or an 8 would be so much better for listening on the driver side...  It will sound really good to your knee and thigh...

[95Honda 486]

I'd like to hear the reasoning for why this is good choice. seems like a smaller driver with a larger bandwidth and better off axis response would have fit the install better. 

 

This is the issue, all that extra output you get with the 12" is pretty much wasted at the drivers left side...

 

Look at the pro audio 8" midbass drivers.  They have the stroke and efficiency and low end response to work so much better in the application.  The last few years have had leaps and bounds with the 8-10 inch pro-audio drivers...  No longer do they run out of gas at 100Hz....

[gprestonmoto 89]

Eric said that he would recommend an 8 or 10 as well, but I told him Sencheezy was interested in using a 12". His recommendations were the Beyma 12G40, The Faital Pro 12PR300, and the Eminence Delta 12LFC

[95Honda 486]

All 3 good drivers.  I have used tons of Deltas, maybe at least 100 over the past decade...

 

But again, I only think the 12s will shine with doors open, 50' behind the vehicle, not at the listening position in the driver's seat...

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

The EA driver you had chosen will blow that driver out of the water in ALL aspects. Eric S. must have stock in that company or gets a kick back. I take it nothing we discussed here, in PM or the chat sunk in if you are going to grab driver B just because Eric said you should. YOU really need to understand why you are doing things, not just go with this persons or that persons suggestions.

Could you perhaps graph these out so I can compare, or tell me why you believe the the AE will blow this one away? It's not too late for me to cancel the order.

The EA driver you had chosen will blow that driver out of the water in ALL aspects. Eric S. must have stock in that company or gets a kick back. I take it nothing we discussed here, in PM or the chat sunk in if you are going to grab driver B just because Eric said you should. YOU really need to understand why you are doing things, not just go with this persons or that persons suggestions.

Could you perhaps graph these out so I can compare, or tell me why you believe the the AE will blow this one away? It's not too late for me to cancel the order.

I have no problem modeling when I have time. I personally spoke with Eric Stevens before and yes he knows his shit. But at the same time he is a busy guy and will go with the easiest suggestion. I took the time to analyze and give you the best recommendations I can. Have spent the time to get you what is best for your application.

[95Honda 486]

Copied and pasted, but gives you an idea of when off-axis response starts going to crap, if you stay well under these frequencies, you should be OK...

Assuming 30C or 86 degrees F:

12" ~ 1,150Hz
10" ~ 1,380Hz
8" ~ 1,720Hz
7"~ 1,970Hz
6.5" ~ 2,120Hz
5.25" ~ 2,620Hz
4" ~ 3,440Hz
3" ~ 4,950Hz
2" ~ 6,880Hz
1" ~ 13,750Hz

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

^This is why the phase plug is important If you're going to do the 12. Midbass is a product of the Xmax X cone area=sd.

[95Honda 486]

Is he using a stand alone phase plug?  If so, I missed that part...

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Thanks for getting in on the conversation 95. I respect your opinion and advice.

The OP is set on running a set of 12s. I have taken a lot of my time to help the OP understand why and what he's doing.

The link to the EA speaker is above. It has a phase plug and a good range, plus decent Xmax.

[Sencheezy 689]

All 3 good drivers. I have used tons of Deltas, maybe at least 100 over the past decade...

But again, I only think the 12s will shine with doors open, 50' behind the vehicle, not at the listening position in the driver's seat...

Hey Honda, thanks for the input, as always, amongst every other person opinions. As stated in the very first page. I gave as much detail as possible. We, ssa, preach about listing as much details, goals, existing equipment, and orientation or whatever as much as possible. I listed all of said information, but yet, was still consistently pushed to go against what I was looking for. Besides a few, other members were against the idea. Which I understand, you are trying to help me to sound better, that's fine, I get that. But the size I wanted, for my goals, was given. I compete in MECA under Dueling Demos. This is new York style vehicle in front of vehicle where the crowd picks the winner. So yes, this includes booth doors being opened, with listener up to 50 ft away. So yes, output has a huge impact on driver selection. With the copy and past you've provide, this shows me that the cutoff goes to poop, that's fine, that's at 1250khz. I will not have my mid crossed that high. So this is not an immediate issue.

[95Honda 486]

As long as you understand what is going on.  And actually, if you are going to listen 50' behind, then the 12 would be the better driver.

 

Just bear in mind, the kind of phase plug pictured isn't going to really change the numbers a whole lot I posted.  I wasn't sure if your driver had a plug mounted on the pole piece or an external one placed elsewhere...  I guess this info isn't so much for you in your application, but maybe someone else...

 

Oh yeah, and if dualing demos is how you describe, horn loaded low end with the apeture firing out the back would decimate your opponent...  About the only time I would suggest such a thing...  

[Sencheezy 689]

Oh yeah, and if dualing demos is how you describe, horn loaded low end with the apeture firing out the back would decimate your opponent... About the only time I would suggest such a thing...

Picture of what you mean? Haha. I would love to get some ideas.

[95Honda 486]

Vehicle?  Your Explorer?

[95Honda 486]

If you are trying to hit people 50' away with bass notes you do it with directional alignments so you aren't wasting energy in all the other directions.  This is the only time it would make sense to horn load the bottom end in car audio.

 

When you horn load you focus energy in one direction, just like the 12's in your door focus their higher output on-axis...  You have one of these fuckers firing out your tailgate...

 

 

I used to run some very large PA systems.  One of them, in Spokane WA contained a 4000' line of loudspeakers on a flightline of an airfield to broadcast to about 50,000 people.  We had direct radiation (vented) cabinets (40 of them) with dual 15" drivers on the outer sections, but in the middle we ran 8 stacks that had single 15" horn loaded drivers in enclosures almost exactly like what I pictured.  The dual 15" cabinets (with plenty of power, we had 50Kw total) would run out of gas about 20' from the cabinets, the horn loaded subs would hit you in the chest at 50', very much, much louder...  

 

That is why for a long distance throw in open space, horn loading is the way...  But this would completely not work inside the vehicle...

[Impious 1,476]

^This is why the phase plug is important If you're going to do the 12. Midbass is a product of the Xmax X cone area=sd.

Keep in mind the effect of a phase plug is still dependent on the size of the plug in relation to the wavelength. Even at 2khz the wavelength is too long compared to the dimension of the plug for it to have much of an effect on high frequency response. At 1khz it won't matter at all, the wave is over a foot long.

[95Honda 486]

Yes, why I was mentioning the pole mounted plug...

[Sencheezy 689]

The Beyma does not have an phase plug.

[nadcicle 77]

Glue one on

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Homie is going to run 12" mid's. He followed the SSA rule's in asking the question. It may not be what a lot of ppl would do but thats up to the OP. So lets help this guy pick out the driver that will perform the best possible for his application. The Phase plug will help with the upper freq's or they wouldnt even use them. We can debate how much it will help, but the fact is its going to help more than a driver without. Would a 12" be what the people with super human hearing would run, probably not, everyone has already agreed on that.

 

The OP is aware that asking a 12" to perform that high is a tall order. He is aware of the compromises his is making. 

 

Sencheezy, I assume you asked Eric about the EA driver? Is it possible the reason he suggested the other drivers is perhaps because they are one's he is familiar with? So is more comfortable with suggesting them.

 

Lets take a look at what Eric suggested.

The Faital Pro: http://www.usspeaker.com/faital%20pro%2012pr300-1.htm

The Beyma: http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%2012G40-1.htm

The Eminence: http://www.usspeaker.com/Delta-12LFC-1.htm

The Beyma: http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%2012p80Fe-1.htm

 

The driver you found on your own. Good job btw.

The EA: http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=7

 

Of course they will all meet the requirements you are after. Each one has its own strong points and will have a different sonic signature. I personally feel the EA has the most going for it for your application, as it's going to work well in your IB setup down low, and is designed to be ran in in a car to begin with. The phase plug is also a plus. I may be wrong, SO lets hear what the experts have to say?