Mid-Bass Driver Selection

[nadcicle 77]

I just don't think there are enough tried and true 12" setups out there to really give you the definitive answer you are searching for. I've seen tons of these multiple speaker setups, but they don't achieve any kind of sound quality at all. I think it will come down to the one recommendation that we all dread hearing and that's to try something and test it. While we can all imagine what a 12 sounds like in a door only 1 can really say, and in the end it'll likely consist of how well the speaker is installed vs how well it looks on paper anyways. It doesn't hurt to buy 1 of each of your top 2 candidates and do a comparison test and either sell or return the one you think isn't up to par. I still think emphasizing your horns will play down to 600 will likely hurt you if you were to pick a mid bass that couldn't exceed at least to that 1k range or better which is why I'm glad you've decided to at least go that high. I'm more than happy to help out local with whatever your decision is. I'd personally go cheap and make sure I gave myself enough depth to swap later in case I liked it enough. That way if you're disappointed it won't be as big of a loss.

[onebadmonte 235]

Just to throw it out there but these would be woofers i would consider:

JBL 2204H

Eminence Definimax 12

and just for laughs

Dayton Audio Designer 12

 

To power these bishes go with a JL Audio HD600/4, bridged and at 8 ohms it'll do 300 watts.

 

Good luck.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Sen that driver is 7.5" deep. Have you confirmed the depth you can fit in you door? If you have a 12" sub laying around you can use it for test fitting just to visualize how it will work out. 

 

You stated you want a 12" for the "WOW" factor more so than for true SQ. Which is cool if that's your purpose. 

 

IF you can find a 12" other than the Aura's that works on paper, and that's not ridiculously expensive, I will gladly buy a pair and try them as I have wanted another pair of drivers to play with. 

[///M5 2,833]

Focus on an enclosure and optimizing a 10 and you will be better off than with a 12. Perhaps even an 8. You are mating with horns which are not full range...

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Acoustically the 10" is a superior choice as pointed out for several reasons. I have even found the OP a set of 10" Aura's if he decides to go that route. I have also pointed out the SSA 10" mid choices as I think they may be worth at least running the numbers on from a reference point of view. I have also tried explaining to the OP the effects of different alignments on the FR as he has shown no understanding of this. AND asked to him to verify what will fit. AS both of these factors need to be addressed before the OP can even begin to look at driver selections.

 

Also the OP stated in the chat that he honestly wants the 12"s for the WOW factor more than any other reason. I would hope he can chime in on this so we can help him choose the driver that he is going to be happy with in the end for whatever reason.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Staging is honestly a non-issue as ignorance is bliss. BTW the best sound at a concert is standing next to the sound board guy, NOT the front row. LOL I will touch base on the staging at any time I feel it is pertinent to our purpose though. 

 

As far as getting "good" staging out of a 12" mid, the bottom will be the easy part. Get the mids sounding good and blended with the horns with the sub OFF first. Once the front stage sounds acceptable to you turn the sub up slowly until you can localize it and then back it off a notch for your "SQ" setting.

 

As for blending the top end of the mid with the horns I will give ONLY my thoughts on this, as I have NO experience with horns. (so PLEASE correct me if I am wrong in any of this thought process) I would think the horns would be capable of playing at a little lower frequency's at low volumes for your "SQ" setting. 

 

From experience of having 12"s that play cleanly well beyond 1k hz, I will say that you will start to notice different frequency responses from the two mids once you start getting much over 500hz, possibly lower. Once again though ignorance may be bliss as you may think they sound great playing upwards of 1-2k hz. Then again a Phase Plug may help with this.

 

20 years ago I could care less about staging as we would roll around with the back seat pulled out and a sheet of plywood screwed in full of drivers of all sizes and flavors. So I say go for it brother. You will only get more discerning ears with age and can dial things in more as you get the processing and time in.

 

I don't mind modeling for ya, but also want you to understand the hows and whys. As far as driver designs go, its a crazy circle of trade off's. Without breaking out the cookbook, here's an example of the vicious circle. to produce low frequency's requires a stiff cone material to swat the air. That stiff cone weights more so is less efficient as a trade off. The heavier cone requires a stronger motor design(more coil wraps, more spiders, etc), which causes the inductance on the top end everyone speaks of. The other end of that spectrum is a PA driver (which is meant to keep up with horns in large open space's) has a super light cone. The lighter cone of the PA (pro driver) allows for a motor that does not roll off so low on the top. The cool thing these days is company's have really started producing a larger variety of drivers that fall in the middle of this spectrum. (and are geared towards car doors)

 

Speakers are dumb in the sense they only do what we tell them to do through install (enclosure alignment, eq, xover, signal, etc). This is where it gets tricky for modeling purposes of a midbass driver for a door install. In the modeling program we must use a sealed alignment but the door is more of a leaky sealed box. So when modeling the low end, I do four vas values in a sealed alignment, door Vb, x1, x3 and again x10. This will show the low end roll off but is vague in the sense that it is more for reference as the door is neither a true IB or a sealed box. This is where the cabin gain you speak of come's in. Even if the driver models poorer than desired, we know based on the driver design (stiff cone, high BL, etc) that it will play the lows with authority, AND the cabin gain will more than take care of any output concerns down low.

 

Now on to the AE drivers the OP is interested in. The company offers an IB driver geared towards car installs So I modeled that first.

 http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=35

The first graph is the IB driver in a true sealed .75 cu ft enclosure. As you see it bumps up the Qtc. to 1.368. 

 

Qtc = Qts* [ ( Vas / Vb ) + 1]^.5

 

Qtc: Value for the damping provided for a driver in a sealed enclosure. Denotes the enclosures ability to control the driver response at resonance. Qtc = 0.707 is the optimum value for sealed enclosures, providing flattest response and highest SPL for deep bass extension. Enclosures for this value are often rather large. Lower Qtc can give even better transition response, down to a Qtc of 0.577 for the best damping and transients, but the enclosure is usually huge and SPL's are down. A Qtc of 1.0 is a compromise between deep bass and transient response vs. smaller sized enclosure. Larger subs can go with an even higher Qtc, as their resonant frequency is often very low, but Qtc's above 1.5 can begin to sound very muddled and boomy, and sacrifice deep bass extension and transient response for enhanced mid-bass peaks (louder).

 

I would suggest going for a higher Q alignment to try to get more response in the 50-100hz range.

^.75 Vb

^door Vb

^1x VAS

^3x VAS

These are the AE IB12AU 4 ohm driver. The first is plotted as if you built a .75 cu ft pod. The second is plotted as if your door was 2.5 cu ft and truly sealed. The third is for a 5.5 cu ft box as that is the equal VAS of the driver. The forth is 3x the drivers VAS. The fifth is 10X the drivers VAS. The forth and fifth are closer to if they were truly IB as in open air with only a baffle and no dampening.

 

Now on to the DX. I got frustrated with the WinISD Alpha Pro so switched to the WinISD.7 Here is the TD12X graghed out for you.  http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=7

First is a .75 cu ft enclosure. This has a Qtc of .823. 

This one is in a 2.5 cu ft. (roughly the volume of your door) enclosure and has a Qtc of .536

Again in a 5.65 cu ft enclosure (1xVAS) and has a Qtc of .425

Again in a 17 cu ft enclosure (3xVAS) and has a Qtc of .345

Again in a 56.5 cu ft enclosure (10xVAS) and has a Qtc of .308

 

The formula Impious gave us will show where the driver starts to roll off on the top end. As the roll off is minor in regards to db loss I take this as just a reference also. Eventually the mechanical noise will become louder than the output though.

 

"A driver's inductance and resistance create a classic 1st order (6db/oct) lowpass crossover. You can determine the corner frequency with the formula."

 

Frequency = Re/(2*Pi*Le)
 

*Le in henries

 

Oddly going by inductance, the DX will start rolling off at 1433hz. And the IB not until over 2500hz. Hopefully Impious can explain how this formula translates into real time. As I have found this formula does NOT correlate with manufactures posted FR graphs. I understand that the coil is part of the circuit just like a coil in a xover. I even remember back in the day, ppl using store bought rolls of wire left on the spool for sub xovers. How acurate it was we will never know. lol

[Sencheezy 689]

I just don't think there are enough tried and true 12" setups out there to really give you the definitive answer you are searching for. I've seen tons of these multiple speaker setups, but they don't achieve any kind of sound quality at all. I think it will come down to the one recommendation that we all dread hearing and that's to try something and test it. While we can all imagine what a 12 sounds like in a door only 1 can really say, and in the end it'll likely consist of how well the speaker is installed vs how well it looks on paper anyways. It doesn't hurt to buy 1 of each of your top 2 candidates and do a comparison test and either sell or return the one you think isn't up to par. I still think emphasizing your horns will play down to 600 will likely hurt you if you were to pick a mid bass that couldn't exceed at least to that 1k range or better which is why I'm glad you've decided to at least go that high. I'm more than happy to help out local with whatever your decision is. I'd personally go cheap and make sure I gave myself enough depth to swap later in case I liked it enough. That way if you're disappointed it won't be as big of a loss.

 

You are right, there are not enough true 12" setups out there to reflect or use as an starting point. This will be experimental through trial and error to get the sound I am looking for and am comfortable with. I will definitely appreciate your help when it is time to install.

 

Just to throw it out there but these would be woofers i would consider:

JBL 2204H

Eminence Definimax 12

and just for laughs

Dayton Audio Designer 12

 

To power these bishes go with a JL Audio HD600/4, bridged and at 8 ohms it'll do 300 watts.

 

Good luck.

 

Thanks for the recommendations sir! I looked into all of the mentioned. I am actually, thanks to you, am currently on bidding on a JBL product, starting at 160$ bid hehe

Although, I think I will need more power than the JL can through out, but that may not be the case. Depending on the final ohm load I can achieve with whatever speaker and my zed Leviathan amp.

 

Sen that driver is 7.5" deep. Have you confirmed the depth you can fit in you door? If you have a 12" sub laying around you can use it for test fitting just to visualize how it will work out. 

 

You stated you want a 12" for the "WOW" factor more so than for true SQ. Which is cool if that's your purpose. 

 

IF you can find a 12" other than the Aura's that works on paper, and that's not ridiculously expensive, I will gladly buy a pair and try them as I have wanted another pair of drivers to play with. 

 

Yes I have confirmed the space I have available. Should be plenty as the front region of the speaker is where the leg space is, me being skinny, I can come out a pretty good distance with whatever speaker is chosen. Yes, I am looking for the 12", mainly because it is something different. And that is what I want. I want that wow factor, but also to sound good while doing it, not just the wow factor in itself. If it is not Auditorium quality sound, I am ok with that. The car is the worst place for a speaker to be placed is, so I will take my compromise where I can.

The reason for this thread, is for other users to get some ideas as well

 

Focus on an enclosure and optimizing a 10 and you will be better off than with a 12. Perhaps even an 8. You are mating with horns which are not full range...

 

I understand Horns are not full range, and that why I am looking for a mid-bass driver that can play high enough, to mat with the horns. Obviously, the higher the better. I will start off at 1k and work from there. If I can't get the midbass play high enough, I will then try to EQ the gap.

Again, to reiterate, yes, focusing on a smaller driver and optimizing it's implementation will be better, and superior than trying to fit an 12", but for my personal desire, I am wanting/choosing to get a bigger woofer inside. I just don't want said woofer to sound like ass, and hopefully score me atleast an 60 while competing. Yes I know that's a shitty score for SQ comp, based out of 100, but no one else is scoring that high with the ability to score high on the SPL meter as well. Which is my primary goal for this year.

 

Acoustically the 10" is a superior choice as pointed out for several reasons. I have even found the OP a set of 10" Aura's if he decides to go that route. I have also pointed out the SSA 10" mid choices as I think they may be worth at least running the numbers on from a reference point of view. I have also tried explaining to the OP the effects of different alignments on the FR as he has shown no understanding of this. AND asked to him to verify what will fit. AS both of these factors need to be addressed before the OP can even begin to look at driver selections.

 

Also the OP stated in the chat that he honestly wants the 12"s for the WOW factor more than any other reason. I would hope he can chime in on this so we can help him choose the driver that he is going to be happy with in the end for whatever reason.

 

Thanks no so much to J-roadtatts, I have now began much research to have a better founding understanding, of the acoustical properties of an driver and it's implementation. I am not far more informed, of what drivers to use, and their associated environments. I have also gained a better understanding of the Equalization process. 

 

I hope I have cleared some of the responses in this thread and in no way or shape am I rejected anybody's suggestions. Its just that I am looking for suggestions that are in line with what I am looking for.

[Sencheezy 689]

 

Staging is honestly a non-issue as ignorance is bliss. BTW the best sound at a concert is standing next to the sound board guy, NOT the front row. LOL I will touch base on the staging at any time I feel it is pertinent to our purpose though. 

 

LOL, that's funny. But it does make sense. With the horns under the dash, pointing directly at the listener, I think I am already a good start to having the sound presence right in front. Yes, if you could, I would like for you to elaborate on staging. I have not come across that subject yet in my research, though I plan to so if you have any sourceful material I can take a look at, that would be even better. I would like to know, and understand, exactly how do I get the sound to play right on top of my dashboard. I want to learn how to exactly get the voice to sound in front of the musical instruments of the song. I want to know, how to keep reflection from the windshield to a bare minimum, etc.

 

As far as getting "good" staging out of a 12" mid, the bottom will be the easy part. Get the mids sounding good and blended with the horns with the sub OFF first. Once the front stage sounds acceptable to you turn the sub up slowly until you can localize it and then back it off a notch for your "SQ" setting.

 

Ok, I see why that will be the easy part. During my research, I have found that my particular body style offers a significant boost in the midbass region, which I should be able to use in my benefit. And yes, that is the process I will use. To get my front stage where I want it, then turn the sub on for daily. 

 

As for blending the top end of the mid with the horns I will give ONLY my thoughts on this, as I have NO experience with horns. (so PLEASE correct me if I am wrong in any of this thought process) I would think the horns would be capable of playing at a little lower frequency's at low volumes for your "SQ" setting. 

 

The plan is to find an 12" mid, that can play up to oh lets say 2k? That is extremely high, but that is not where I will began my starting xover. My starting xover will likely be 1khz, and then play with the horns a bit and try to go as low as possible. Luckily, recones for my horns are failry cheap, so I don't mind blowing through a few to get the perfect match. The reason to find a mid to play high, is so that I don't have cone break up or stress from the mid while playing past it's xover point. 

 

From experience of having 12"s that play cleanly well beyond 1k hz, I will say that you will start to notice different frequency responses from the two mids once you start getting much over 500hz, possibly lower. Once again though ignorance may be bliss as you may think they sound great playing upwards of 1-2k hz. Then again a Phase Plug may help with this.

 

Yes, I too agree that a Phase Plug will help with this, especially now that you have provided me with a better understanding of what the hell a phase plug is to begin with hehe

 

20 years ago I could care less about staging as we would roll around with the back seat pulled out and a sheet of plywood screwed in full of drivers of all sizes and flavors. So I say go for it brother. You will only get more discerning ears with age and can dial things in more as you get the processing and time in.

 

Thank you for your support J, I really appreciate it brother. And form anyone else who has chimmed in thus far!! 

 

I don't mind modeling for ya, but also want you to understand the hows and whys. As far as driver designs go, its a crazy circle of trade off's. Without breaking out the cookbook, here's an example of the vicious circle. to produce low frequency's requires a stiff cone material to swat the air. That stiff cone weights more so is less efficient as a trade off. The heavier cone requires a stronger motor design(more coil wraps, more spiders, etc), which causes the inductance on the top end everyone speaks of. The other end of that spectrum is a PA driver (which is meant to keep up with horns in large open space's) has a super light cone. The lighter cone of the PA (pro driver) allows for a motor that does not roll off so low on the top. The cool thing these days is company's have really started producing a larger variety of drivers that fall in the middle of this spectrum. (and are geared towards car doors)

 

And I appreciate that sir. It's kind of how I want to raise my children. I will tell them the good and bad, but I will also tell them why so that they will have an understanding of the decisions they make in life and their consequences. Yes, I think the tradeoff I am willing to sacrifice is the lower end. Again, this is because I want to use a 2-way active system, I want to be able to cross high enough with the mid, and low enough with the horns, so they will play nicely together. Also another reason is because I know my vehicle offers an DB boost in the lower midbass region, which would help for my installation.

 

Speakers are dumb in the sense they only do what we tell them to do through install (enclosure alignment, eq, xover, signal, etc). This is where it gets tricky for modeling purposes of a midbass driver for a door install. In the modeling program we must use a sealed alignment but the door is more of a leaky sealed box. So when modeling the low end, I do four vas values in a sealed alignment, door Vb, x1, x3 and again x10. This will show the low end roll off but is vague in the sense that it is more for reference as the door is neither a true IB or a sealed box. This is where the cabin gain you speak of come's in. Even if the driver models poorer than desired, we know based on the driver design (stiff cone, high BL, etc) that it will play the lows with authority, AND the cabin gain will more than take care of any output concerns down low.

 

Now on to the AE drivers the OP is interested in. The company offers an IB driver geared towards car installs So I modeled that first.

 http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=35

The first graph is the IB driver in a true sealed .75 cu ft enclosure. As you see it bumps up the Qtc. to 1.368. 

 

Qtc = Qts* [ ( Vas / Vb ) + 1]^.5

 

Qtc: Value for the damping provided for a driver in a sealed enclosure. Denotes the enclosures ability to control the driver response at resonance. Qtc = 0.707 is the optimum value for sealed enclosures, providing flattest response and highest SPL for deep bass extension. Enclosures for this value are often rather large. Lower Qtc can give even better transition response, down to a Qtc of 0.577 for the best damping and transients, but the enclosure is usually huge and SPL's are down. A Qtc of 1.0 is a compromise between deep bass and transient response vs. smaller sized enclosure. Larger subs can go with an even higher Qtc, as their resonant frequency is often very low, but Qtc's above 1.5 can begin to sound very muddled and boomy, and sacrifice deep bass extension and transient response for enhanced mid-bass peaks (louder).

 

I would suggest going for a higher Q alignment to try to get more response in the 50-100hz range.

^.75 Vb

^door Vb

^1x VAS

^3x VAS

These are the AE IB12AU 4 ohm driver. The first is plotted as if you built a .75 cu ft pod. The second is plotted as if your door was 2.5 cu ft and truly sealed. The third is for a 5.5 cu ft box as that is the equal VAS of the driver. The forth is 3x the drivers VAS. The fifth is 10X the drivers VAS. The forth and fifth are closer to if they were truly IB as in open air with only a baffle and no dampening.

 

Now on to the DX. I got frustrated with the WinISD Alpha Pro so switched to the WinISD.7 Here is the TD12X graghed out for you.  http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=7

First is a .75 cu ft enclosure. This has a Qtc of .823. 

This one is in a 2.5 cu ft. (roughly the volume of your door) enclosure and has a Qtc of .536

Again in a 5.65 cu ft enclosure (1xVAS) and has a Qtc of .425

Again in a 17 cu ft enclosure (3xVAS) and has a Qtc of .345

Again in a 56.5 cu ft enclosure (10xVAS) and has a Qtc of .308

 

So while looking at these graphs that you have plotted out for me, which one would you believe would suite me best? I will again take a look at them late, but leaving work at the moment. 

Also, here is another driver that I would like to see graphed whenever you get the chance. JBL 2226H.

 

The formula Impious gave us will show where the driver starts to roll off on the top end. As the roll off is minor in regards to db loss I take this as just a reference also. Eventually the mechanical noise will become louder than the output though.

 

"A driver's inductance and resistance create a classic 1st order (6db/oct) lowpass crossover. You can determine the corner frequency with the formula."

 

Frequency = Re/(2*Pi*Le)

 

*Le in henries

 

Oddly going by inductance, the DX will start rolling off at 1433hz. And the IB not until over 2500hz. Hopefully Impious can explain how this formula translates into real time. As I have found this formula does NOT correlate with manufactures posted FR graphs. I understand that the coil is part of the circuit just like a coil in a xover. I even remember back in the day, ppl using store bought rolls of wire left on the spool for sub xovers. How acurate it was we will never know. lol

 

Yes, Impious, do you mind helping us out again on this?

 

[///M5 2,833]

"A driver's inductance and resistance create a classic 1st order (6db/oct) lowpass crossover. You can determine the corner frequency with the formula."

 

Frequency = Re/(2*Pi*Le)

 

*Le in henries

 

Oddly going by inductance, the DX will start rolling off at 1433hz. And the IB not until over 2500hz. Hopefully Impious can explain how this formula translates into real time. As I have found this formula does NOT correlate with manufactures posted FR graphs. I understand that the coil is part of the circuit just like a coil in a xover. I even remember back in the day, ppl using store bought rolls of wire left on the spool for sub xovers. How acurate it was we will never know. lol

 

Yes, Impious, do you mind helping us out again on this?

Impious posted the equation for creating your own low pass filter. With a known Re and chosen Frequency you can determine the type of Inductor to use when building a simple 6db LP filter. Conveniently (and inconveniently if you don't want a roll off) the driver has an intrinsic inductance. This inductance and of course its impedance will create a natural LP filter. Most modelling software by default does not include this roll off unless you add it in the filter portion of the software meaning you will see no roll off in the response.

As for the store bought rolls of wire, they wouldn't be my first choice as an inductor but if they measure appropriately you will get a 1st order roll off.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

You are WAAAY over thinking it. There are KEY CONTROL POINTS that dictate how to pick a driver. Can it play the range you intend to use? Will it work in your alignment? Do you have the processing to deal with any cone breakups if they are in your intended range? It's that simple.

 

The purpose of the graph's is to show you how the enclosure volume effects the Qtc value. RE-RE-read my paragraphs before the graph's. All drivers are going plot relatively close to this. I have done actual testing with different size boxes to understand this in real time. The results are simple, a super small sealed box will force the driver to peak before rolling off. IB and/or larger sealed box will roll off more naturally, which is generally a good thing for SQ as you don't want peaks in the FR. I say generally bc you can use box size to bump up a weak low end without the need for more power. YOU will have to test this to decide, and I would suggest it before even touching the door.

 

ALL instruments including the human voice reach over a broad range of octaves. There is the fundamental sound and then the 2nd, 3rd, 4th harmonics. 

 

As far as staging lets use drums for an example. If you where standing right in front of the drummer you would have a single point sound source. Now listen to the drummer on a recording with all speakers in front of you (computer, home stereo) and you will note that the multiple speakers being grouped together still have the same sound. Then listen to the same recording in you car where the speakers are not grouped together and you will recognize the different octaves not in phase. The different octave's arrival to your ear is only off by milliseconds, but that's enough to ruin the single point source sound as far as your brain is concerned. Now if you have multiple sources of the same octave from different directions it will cause cancellation or reverberation if not in phase. I call this the "Wal-Mart" sound. This is ALSO a bad thing as far as your brain is concerned as it will cause listener fatigue. As your brain is trying to align the sounds and will grow tired quickly causing your brain to zone out the music all together. Your ear is only a sensor, your brain is what does the processing. 

 

This video is deceiving in that they overlayed the song to align with the speakers movement. It does however give you a grasp of how the acoustic coupling of the drivers should be seemless.

[Sencheezy 689]

Ok great, I will continue to review the information at hand to obtain a better understanding. 

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Here is a good read for you and even has a timbre widget at the bottom of the page to help tune your ear. Cheers.

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/sound/u11l4d.cfm

[Sencheezy 689]

Here is a good read for you and even has a timbre widget at the bottom of the page to help tune your ear. Cheers.

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/sound/u11l4d.cfm

cheers mate

[SacredTanakh 67]

Very interesting reading this thread as I am trying to find a midrange for my build. Looking forward to see what sencheezy picks out.

[Sencheezy 689]

http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%2012p80Fe-1.htm

Ultimately I picked per recommendation of Eric Stevens.

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

They may sound good but the specs contradict and it says it weighs 26 pounds. Your gonna have major door hinge problems with that much weight.

[Sencheezy 689]

Are you saying the specs contradict itself or the specs contradict it sounding good? Yeah, it's goona be hefty. Hopefully my fiberglass can come through on this.

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

Efficiency of over 3% seems a little high. It's Xmax is different also. Says Xmax and coil over hang is 7mm but is less. Coil minus air gap is 8 I think it was / 2 gives it a coil overhang of 4

[Impious 1,476]

Efficiency of over 3% seems a little high. It's Xmax is different also. Says Xmax and coil over hang is 7mm but is less. Coil minus air gap is 8 I think it was / 2 gives it a coil overhang of 4

I'd have to run the numbers but 3% seems about reasonable for 100db sensitivity, which it's rated at. I wouldn't be surprised if that rated Xmax was peak to peak.....although that seems a little low with 8mm of overhang, I have a hard time believing it will do 7.4mm one way linearly. Overhang + 15% still wouldn't put it over 5mm one way.

However, HOLY LOW Qts. I'm on the iPad so can't model it, but if you want any kind of midbass you are absolutely going to need to port those. Look at the posted FR graph, they're down like 8db at 100hz....and that's free air. Put them in a sealed enclosure or car door and it'll be even worse. At 100hz they are at 90db, that's the average sensitivity of a "normal" 8" midbass, and the "normal" midbass would murder it lower than that in anything other than possibly a ported enclosure. So you have super high sensitivity in the midrange but below average sensitivity in the midbass with that driver. Everything is a compromise in audio........

[onebadmonte 235]

Serious woofer there. I'm sure with Mr. Steven's guidance you'll be able to get some sweet sweet sounds out of it. Good luck.

[lithium 358]

poor doors. i thought i was being mean with my peerless sls 8s. 

[Sencheezy 689]

Serious woofer there. I'm sure with Mr. Steven's guidance you'll be able to get some sweet sweet sounds out of it. Good luck.

Why thank you Monte!!! Haha. Good to see a positive post every once in a while I believe these will suit my needs quite! I was wanting a mid bass driver that can play well up to 1khz. This speakers offers that. The mid bass region is not so crucial for me as I will have cabin gain helping out with that, and well, while demoing, you won't here much of mid bass as the subwoofer will mask most of that sound. It appears that the lack if mid bass specific region is the only downfall of this driver. That is the compromise I was willing to take, and it fits the others bills quite nicely. Well besides weighing in at 25 pounds!!

[Sencheezy 689]

poor doors. i thought i was being mean with my peerless sls 8s.

I'm definitely going to have to figure what to do to reinforce my door panels. Any ideas? Hehe

[lithium 358]

 

poor doors. i thought i was being mean with my peerless sls 8s.

I'm definitely going to have to figure what to do to reinforce my door panels. Any ideas? Hehe

 

you're building a ported enclosures right? 25 lbs of driver plus several more pounds in fiberglass on the hinges is what i'd be possibly be concerned about.

 

strengthening the door panels isn't really necessary since the driver is in an enclosure. just make sure you secure the enclosure properly (i'd consider rivnuts and maybe some kind of rubber washer between the enclosure and door). i would still apply cld tiles, butyl rope, mlv, and ccf in the usual manner. obviously the mlv wouldn't need to cover the lower part of the door panel where the enclosure will be.  

Edited February 22, 2014 by lithium

[Sencheezy 689]

poor doors. i thought i was being mean with my peerless sls 8s.

I'm definitely going to have to figure what to do to reinforce my door panels. Any ideas? Hehe

you're building a ported enclosures right? 25 lbs of driver plus several more pounds in fiberglass on the hinges is what i'd be possibly be concerned about.

strengthening the door panels isn't really necessary since the driver is in an enclosure. just make sure you secure the enclosure properly (i'd consider rivnuts and maybe some kind of rubber washer between the enclosure and door). i would still apply cld tiles, butyl rope, mlv, and ccf in the usual manner. obviously the mlv wouldn't need to cover the lower part of the door panel where the enclosure will be.

Ok, for sure. I'll try to gather supplies during the wait