Mid-Bass Driver Selection

[Impious 1,476]

you can't look at those response graph and expect them to look like that once installed. Those responses are on axis with one watt of power. Once off axis and induction with proper power response will fall off greatly. Those responses are only a guideline when on axis one meter away. Vance did a review with Voice Coil a while back on the Ultimax but I can't find the mag.

ohhh, so I really shouldn't look at those graphs a reference or a good representation of what to expect installed in my vehicle?

For example, I look at this driver:

http://www.usspeaker.com/ciare 1200sw-1.htm

Now, by manufacture, it recommends 20hz-200hz. But looking at the graph, it "seems" to play relatively well up into about 1khz.

So, just because it looks good on the graph, doesn't mean it plays good? Is that what you're saying?

No, that response is only when the driver is facing directly in front of you. And this is with any driver. This normally isn't a problem with home audio as the drivers are more or less in front of you.

So, then I suppose my next question is, exactly how do I go about choosing the proper and best fitting driver for my goals and application? Do I have to program every single drivers T/s ?

You will want to consider those as well to make sure the low end suits your needs.....but TSP really only encapsulate the low frequency behavior of the driver....you need to also consider the high frequency response.

As Q said you will need to consider how the driver will perform off axis, which isn't included in those response graphs but can be roughly figured by dividing the speed of sound by the diameter of the cone. You also need to consider how the inductance affects where the driver will begin to roll off on the top end....generally speaking you want to cross the driver about an octave below the inductance induced lowpass crossover frequency. You can determine this frequency with the formula f = Re / (2*Pi*Le)....inductance needs to be in H, normally in the parameters it's listed in mH.

You also need to consider things like where the cone breaks up, distortion performance, etc. not all of it is easily attainable information, unfortunately. The response graph and impedance curve can give you some insight into the cone break up.

[edouble101 314]

Mated with horns, a pro audio driver in a ported enclosure would give you solid midbass. Keep in mind that you will need to cross the mids around the 1.2khz range. I would think that a 12" midbass enclosed in a ported enclosure would be a tight fit to say the least. Beaming coupled with an off axis response may not sound too good for those 12" in the doors as well.  I wouldn't use a 12" midbass for anything other than midbass. In this case it would be a three-way : midbass-midrange-hlcd.

 

You may have much better results mounting an 8" midbass in a ported enclosure in the kick panel area. Even an 8" midbass in the door would be better than a 12" midbass when used with the minis.

[Sencheezy 689]

Mated with horns, a pro audio driver in a ported enclosure would give you solid midbass. Keep in mind that you will need to cross the mids around the 1.2khz range. I would think that a 12" midbass enclosed in a ported enclosure would be a tight fit to say the least. Beaming coupled with an off axis response may not sound too good for those 12" in the doors as well.  I wouldn't use a 12" midbass for anything other than midbass. In this case it would be a three-way : midbass-midrange-hlcd.

 

You may have much better results mounting an 8" midbass in a ported enclosure in the kick panel area. Even an 8" midbass in the door would be better than a 12" midbass when used with the minis.

 

Geesh really? I was really looking forward to adding a single 12" to each door. I wanted to keep things simple as possible, and avoid a 3 way active. I'm pretty confindent I could get the passenger side on axis, would be more difficult to treat the driver siad the same though.

[nadcicle 77]

Not trying to throw too big of a wrench in things, but I want to reiterate what I was saying to you before about the size of your horns effecting how low you can tune those drivers to safely. I wouldn't bank on being able to cross them all the way down to 600 unless they were full size. I was asking Eric about it directly and he said the same to me and said that the biggest issue with finding a matching mid is making the decision on the size of driver vs how loud you want it to be overall. In almost any circumstance you will almost always be turning your horns down to mix with your mids as they will almost always be overpowering them with anything smaller than an 8" driver. That isn't to say the least that you then have an issue with finding something that will play low enough and high enough to make the blend that much more appealing. I'm still personally set on trying out that cheap driver i mentioned to you before just to see how high it will get without breaking up. Sure it doesn't get as low as some would like, but subs might be able to get at least up to their cutoff point without being too horrible. I am willing to test myself of course as I plan on doing 10's in both vehicles if they'll sound good enough to make them worth while. They're not gonna be taking 500 rms though and I highly doubt some of their specs.

 

 http://www.parts-express.com/pyle-pbw10s-10-midbass--292-2528

[Sencheezy 689]

Not trying to throw too big of a wrench in things, but I want to reiterate what I was saying to you before about the size of your horns effecting how low you can tune those drivers to safely. I wouldn't bank on being able to cross them all the way down to 600 unless they were full size. I was asking Eric about it directly and he said the same to me and said that the biggest issue with finding a matching mid is making the decision on the size of driver vs how loud you want it to be overall. In almost any circumstance you will almost always be turning your horns down to mix with your mids as they will almost always be overpowering them with anything smaller than an 8" driver. That isn't to say the least that you then have an issue with finding something that will play low enough and high enough to make the blend that much more appealing. I'm still personally set on trying out that cheap driver i mentioned to you before just to see how high it will get without breaking up. Sure it doesn't get as low as some would like, but subs might be able to get at least up to their cutoff point without being too horrible. I am willing to test myself of course as I plan on doing 10's in both vehicles if they'll sound good enough to make them worth while. They're not gonna be taking 500 rms though and I highly doubt some of their specs.

 

 http://www.parts-express.com/pyle-pbw10s-10-midbass--292-2528

 

Good to hear some more feedback.

 

I currently have my eye set on: RCF LF12X401

http://www.usspeaker.com/rcf%20-%20Lf12x401-1.htm

and : BEYMA 12P80Fe

http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%2012p80Fe-1.htm

 

If i was to grab either pair, I believe I will port them, as suggested previously. 

[Randal Johnson 544]

You do know that most trucks like yours that compete Sound Quality usually have no larger than a 8" driver in each door ...

The best ones that I have heard had them installed in almost exact stock position (mainly the Guy that won Modified) ...

 

During our demo ... you had really nice output on your midbass drivers. However, your horns needed ALOT of attention ...

My suggestion (and please, this is only my suggestion) ... would be to upgrade your headunit with time alignment and a good bit of EQ ...

... or add a processor to your system and get them horns tweeked out and THEN see what you need to work with on midbass ...

[Sencheezy 689]

You do know that most trucks like yours that compete Sound Quality usually have no larger than a 8" driver in each door ...

The best ones that I have heard had them installed in almost exact stock position (mainly the Guy that won Modified) ...

 

During our demo ... you had really nice output on your midbass drivers. However, your horns needed ALOT of attention ...

My suggestion (and please, this is only my suggestion) ... would be to upgrade your headunit with time alignment and a good bit of EQ ...

... or add a processor to your system and get them horns tweeked out and THEN see what you need to work with on midbass ...

 

 

Thanks Cableguy!

 

But that's exactly my thing, I'm not looking to win any kind of championship. That devotes an exteme amount of time and about 2-3 times more expensive than SPL. I am simply looking for a respectable score, that is versitle enough to get really loud, while maintaining some sort of imaging, staging, and presence/depth. And I totally agree, I need a new headunit with more built in processing. But I want to tackle one task at a time, stating off with driver selection.

[Randal Johnson 544]

I am simply looking for a respectable score, that is versitle enough to get really loud, while maintaining some sort of imaging, staging, and presence/depth. And I totally agree, I need a new headunit with more built in processing. But I want to tackle one task at a time, stating off with driver selection.

You seen my truck get really loud and keep it's stage and image, and it has no problems putting a 140 on the termlab ... All I'm saying is time alignment alone will GREATLY improve on what you have now ... even when cranked up !!!

[Sencheezy 689]

I am simply looking for a respectable score, that is versitle enough to get really loud, while maintaining some sort of imaging, staging, and presence/depth. And I totally agree, I need a new headunit with more built in processing. But I want to tackle one task at a time, stating off with driver selection.

You seen my truck get really loud and keep it's stage and image, and it has no problems putting a 140 on the termlab ... All I'm saying is time alignment alone will GREATLY improve on what you have now ... even when cranked up !!!

 

Yeah, your truck definately gets loud. Just looking for a little bit more output 

Again, after driver selection has been made, then I will tackle the T/A and such.

[Randal Johnson 544]

Best of luck brother ... Can't wait to meet up with you in the lanes !!!

[///M5 2,833]

A ported enclosure is 100% necessary if you running PA stuff. The 600Hz is extremely optimistic, double that much better but a bit lower perhaps at lower levels. A pair of 8's run in a 2.5 configuration ported or a single 10 would be a way better choice than a 12.

Real question then becomes how much enclosure space can you fit as that will determine possible driver size.

[Sencheezy 689]

A ported enclosure is 100% necessary if you running PA stuff. The 600Hz is extremely optimistic, double that much better but a bit lower perhaps at lower levels. A pair of 8's run in a 2.5 configuration ported or a single 10 would be a way better choice than a 12.

Real question then becomes how much enclosure space can you fit as that will determine possible driver size.

 

As mentioned previously, it's about 2 cubes gross.

[Randal Johnson 544]

As mentioned previously, it's about 2 cubes gross.

If you build an enclosure in each door ... Will you still be able to roll your windows up and down ??

I know in my truck (I know, each vehicle is different ... just asking) that the window mechanism goes way down in that area where the drivers are located ...

Reason I'm tuned into this thread is because I plan to change some things in my doors too ... Just not going to say what yet cause I'm not so sure it's going to happen ...

Edited January 6, 2014 by Cablguy184

[///M5 2,833]

I should have read ahead

That could house a pair of 10's. Could passively cross one to only be midbass and use the other as a midbass/midrange and benefit from cone area and response. You may be better off with 8's though in that alignment. 10's will dig deeper and blend with your subs more easily, but the upper midrange won't be as nice.

Are your horns already installed? If so, do some critical listening to determine really how low you can acceptably have them play.

[nadcicle 77]

I agree with m5 on listening how low you can currently go. My use full bodied start farting right at 800 at too high of volume. For our type of listening I chose to cross higher at 1k so I could feed them more power without the fear of replacing diaphragms. I will say they blended a lot better at low volume though. It's just that we are determined to keep up with a loud substage and most of these Sq guys don't have that issue. For all intents and purposes they build the exact opposite the way we do by sounding good then blending in. We try and get loud then sound good is becoming our ladder.

[///M5 2,833]

I've played with a lot of horns and none of them have liked being run that low...but where you should pick is what YOUR ears like. The lower they play the more flexibility you have, but don't exaggerate as it'll bite you later.

[KyleBrown 121]

Have you considered going three way?

 

Lots of mid bass can be had from Anarchy mids. 

[///M5 2,833]

Have you considered going three way?

 

Lots of mid bass can be had from Anarchy mids.

He doesn't want although that would make it WAY easier. Tons of 12's that will have great midbass if it doesn't have to extend.

[KyleBrown 121]

Going three way gives you a lot more options. You can dial in the exact sound you want. Less compromises. My next stage will be active 3way. 

 

A nice mid range driver will go a long way. I'm not a big fan mid range, so I can get away with less than most because it's what I like. 

 

You have the perfect amp to go three way active cheezy. 

[mccleery3 166]

So what do you have paired with the horns right now?

Do you still plan to pick up that Clarion dbl din that is supposed to be active capable? It would seem that maybe Cableguy & Teric's suggestion of taming the horns 1st may help narrow your options.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

12 midbassas are sickly. Just ask me. That being said the compromise for me is a weak midrange which would be even worse with horns. Plus hold a 12 up to your door you will quickly realize the hurdle to mount that bitch. I was happier with the mounting and sound of the ten but got greedy when they accidentally sent a 12 replacement. From the front of my baffle to the glass at the closest point while rolling down is only 5.5".

If I already had horns mounted I would be looking a pro driver as midrange and take the compromise of less midbass as the ref levels I am guessing you listen at are pretty high.

IIRC off axis suffers the larger the cone diameter as the two correlate. (Beaming)

Once you pick a driver model it for the low end response in your planned alignment. Then do the math Imp put up to see where the driver will roll off on the top due to inductance of the drivers coil. IIRC the coil acts like a crossover. Remember to convert mh to h for the formula.

I could go on as I have spent much time on the subject. So the last thing I will add is the smaller cone has less moving mass which I think is good in your case.

[///M5 2,833]

J also has the advantage of 12's that will actually reach up to 1kHz rather nicely ON AXIS. Obviously a compromise as is everything audio in a car, but that is where you are right now. Simple will require more of a compromise so it all depends on how far you want to go.

[Sencheezy 689]

Cablguy184, on 05 Jan 2014 - 22:04, said:

Cablguy184, on 05 Jan 2014 - 22:04, said:
As mentioned previously, it's about 2 cubes gross.
If you build an enclosure in each door ... Will you still be able to roll your windows up and down ??
I know in my truck (I know, each vehicle is different ... just asking) that the window mechanism goes way down in that area where the drivers are located ...
Reason I'm tuned into this thread is because I plan to change some things in my doors too ... Just not going to say what yet cause I'm not so sure it's going to happen ...

 

 

Yes, the dimensions mentioned in the first post were rough dimensions, but were not "inside" the door to interfere with the control arm. Where the driver will be located, far front side, they will be extended outward to try and avoid any inner workings.

 

 

///M5, on 05 Jan 2014 - 22:24, said:
I should have read ahead tongue.png

That could house a pair of 10's. Could passively cross one to only be midbass and use the other as a midbass/midrange and benefit from cone area and response. You may be better off with 8's though in that alignment. 10's will dig deeper and blend with your subs more easily, but the upper midrange won't be as nice.

Are your horns already installed? If so, do some critical listening to determine really how low you can acceptably have them play.

 

 

Thanks for the input, yes, the horns are already installed as seen in the pictures posted in the beginning. Currently, they are crossed at ~1100. I don't really feel comfortable lowering them just yet, as I feel I do not have the necessary processing at the moment. The specs given by Eric Stevens suggest to cross them at 800, which is safe, and then 600 if utilizing a 24/48db slope. I've had them installed for little over 6 months or so. My initial installation was not to go the SQ route. But as I began listening to them, I realzied how much I'm attracted to the actually sound quality of my material.

 

 

nadcicle, on 05 Jan 2014 - 23:09, said:
I agree with m5 on listening how low you can currently go. My use full bodied start farting right at 800 at too high of volume. For our type of listening I chose to cross higher at 1k so I could feed them more power without the fear of replacing diaphragms. I will say they blended a lot better at low volume though. It's just that we are determined to keep up with a loud substage and most of these Sq guys don't have that issue. For all intents and purposes they build the exact opposite the way we do by sounding good then blending in. We try and get loud then sound good is becoming our ladder.

 

 

As mentioned before, during initial testing, I will be buying a bulk load, maybe 6 or so diaphragms as they are farely cheap, once I have the settings dialed in, I will then replace the stock diaphragms with titanium ones he provides IIRC.

 

 

///M5, on 05 Jan 2014 - 23:18, said:
I've played with a lot of horns and none of them have liked being run that low...but where you should pick is what YOUR ears like. The lower they play the more flexibility you have, but don't exaggerate as it'll bite you later.

 

 

Ok sounds good.

 

 

armykyle1, on 05 Jan 2014 - 23:37, said:
Have you considered going three way?

Lots of mid bass can be had from Anarchy mids.

 

 

I do not want to go 3 way, at least not at this point of my installation. And yes, I've taken a look at the Anarchy, but again, I was wanting to go with a single, large driver to be installed, and blend well my my horns. I know this limits me a lot, just really didn't realize how much haha.

 

///M5, on 05 Jan 2014 - 23:38, said:

armykyle1, on 05 Jan 2014 - 23:37, said:
Have you considered going three way?
Lots of mid bass can be had from Anarchy mids.

 

He doesn't want although that would make it WAY easier. Tons of 12's that will have great midbass if it doesn't have to extend.

 

 

Yeah, I'm noticing that is what you guys are mentioning, I would be fine if I was to simply go from 40hz to about 300hz, but the problem or challenge I'm facing is finding one that reaches up to about 600hz. Seems my only liably option at the moment is PA, which I'm not too fond about, but if I can port them, and obtain that lower end extension by doing so, I may have found an solution for so. You mentioned that going with high xmax is actually bad for my particular installation and goals correct? Most of the drivers I'm looking at now, the PA's, have an xmax of about 7-9mm, is that more sensible? The other midbass drivers, (non-PA), seem to excel in the lower extension, but then begins to weaken beyond 250hz, at least according to manufacture recommendation and listed FR Graphs.

 

 

armykyle1, on 06 Jan 2014 - 00:17, said:
Going three way gives you a lot more options. You can dial in the exact sound you want. Less compromises. My next stage will be active 3way.

A nice mid range driver will go a long way. I'm not a big fan mid range, so I can get away with less than most because it's what I like.

You have the perfect amp to go three way active cheezy.

 

 

haha, Yeah I know I do, it's just something I don't feel comfortable with at this particular moment. Another goal of mine is to have the most output I can achieve with the least amount of speakers.

 

 

chicagofan, on 06 Jan 2014 - 01:23, said:
So what do you have paired with the horns right now?
Do you still plan to pick up that Clarion dbl din that is supposed to be active capable? It would seem that maybe Cableguy & Teric's suggestion of taming the horns 1st may help narrow your options.

 

 

Right now, they are paired with a pair of Seas Prestige 7" midrange drivers. Which currently, I don't have setup properly. Right now I have they setup to play better in the higher range vs playing the lower end. Doing so, an local SQ person informed me that he can actually here my door speakers take sound away from my horns, which I don't want.

I actually do still plan on picking up that Clarion, as well as an external processor. I currently have a pair of AudioControl CDQ 3octave crossovers. But I'm not sure If I'll be using them. And yes, I'm still learning of what the horns are tolerating at the moment and what sounds good. I've been content thus far with crossing them over at 1100 with the power being applied, so I have really done much testing as, again, I have limited processing power at the moment.

 

 

j-roadtatts, on 06 Jan 2014 - 01:39, said:
12 midbassas are sickly. Just ask me. That being said the compromise for me is a weak midrange which would be even worse with horns. Plus hold a 12 up to your door you will quickly realize the hurdle to mount that bitch. I was happier with the mounting and sound of the ten but got greedy when they accidentally sent a 12 replacement. From the front of my baffle to the glass at the closest point while rolling down is only 5.5".
If I already had horns mounted I would be looking a pro driver as midrange and take the compromise of less midbass as the ref levels I am guessing you listen at are pretty high.
IIRC off axis suffers the larger the cone diameter as the two correlate. (Beaming)
Once you pick a driver model it for the low end response in your planned alignment. Then do the math Imp put up to see where the driver will roll off on the top due to inductance of the drivers coil. IIRC the coil acts like a crossover. Remember to convert mh to h for the formula.
I could go on as I have spent much time on the subject. So the last thing I will add is the smaller cone has less moving mass which I think is good in your case.

 

 

I think you said it best for me:
"If I already had horns mounted I would be looking a pro driver as midrange and take the compromise of less midbass"
This is something that I'm learning to accept, and deal with. And I think I'm ok with that. And would actually like to move forward in this regard as it's becoming more difficult to find an Mid-Bass Driver that can play as high as I will need them too.

 

 

///M5, on 06 Jan 2014 - 09:17, said:
J also has the advantage of 12's that will actually reach up to 1kHz rather nicely ON AXIS. Obviously a compromise as is everything audio in a car, but that is where you are right now. Simple will require more of a compromise so it all depends on how far you want to go.

 

 

Right right, I think the compromise for me will be the loss of Lower End Extension. All of the PAs that I have taken a look at thus far pick up really quickly at 70hz, but there is an extremely steep slope of anything below that, referencing their published FR Graphs. So I believe I will be able to aid this by porting them, since I also have the addaqute space for doing so, this may benefit me. If I was to find a more dedicated Mid-Bass driver, than I will have to compromise the higher end (300hz-~800hz). IF that was the case, then I would try to use the available processing to bridge that gap.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Sencheezy

[///M5 2,833]

Not going to get much below 70Hz even with porting at least and not maintain upper extension. Pro Audio mids are very focused in the range they play (have to be to have efficiency).

When are you buying processing? I'd REALLY recommend playing with those horns. Eric claims 800Hz, but depending on your listening habits that may be too much. In particular with limited processing.

If you want, I need a miniDSP. Order one, try some setups and then send it to me and I'll pay for it at that time. Just don't fuck it up. Before you do though let me know as I may order 2 more...

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

 I can change xover points from my deck. The reason i say this is I run my midbasses at 80hz when I want to wail on them. Most of the time I have them crossed lower, BUT I also usually only have my sub barely on. (BTL 15") With the mids crossed at 80hz and a high ref level (horns anyone) I like them better crossed higher. Why you ask? First I don't care how stout you build a door, its going to resonate like crazy from the energy transfer of a 12" at 50hz at high volumes. Which kills the SQL. Secondly once I crank the sub up there is no need for the mids to play that low. I know every install and persons tastes are different but this at least gives you my subjective view.  The point i am getting at is I think the sacrifice you need to make is an easy one if you listen at the ref levels I think you do. 

 

That being said IF I already had the horns mounted the choice would be a no brainer. Get a pro audio driver and enjoy the head cracking midrange, and let the sub do its job.