4th order help for two zv4 18s

[///M5 2,833]

I'm going to get advice from people who actually have a 4th order , have built them, and run sundown 18s.

Get ready to be misinformed. How many people do you know that don't think their setup is "right"?

Also amusing how we offered to help you design a box with a 4th order response, but you aren't interested since it isn't what you are doing...but yet you are going to ask about a 4th order design.

[swift 501]

If your throwing 12k to 3 subs rated at 1500-2k rms might want to mention that in the forsale thread on Caco. I dont want no stinky subs. lol. I have a low ported wall ready for some ZV4's and was looking at yours, think I will have to pass. 

[garychurch84 127]

That was interesting lol

[mnorwood2114 8]

Well let's see here, you have guys who run two sundown ns1 @ 18 volts with each amp running at .5 ohms , that would put you right around 16-18k on four subs , but hey sundown subs can only handle 1500-2000 watts. Lol

[ssh 924]

Have you considered a 6th order bandpass?

[///M5 2,833]

No, because he doesn't want to make sense.

[swift 501]

Well let's see here, you have guys who run two sundown ns1 @ 18 volts with each amp running at .5 ohms , that would put you right around 16-18k on four subs , but hey sundown subs can only handle 1500-2000 watts. Lol

They are rated at 1750rms. I didn't say what they can handle and as smart as you seem I doubt they will last very long, and who gives a shit what people are doing. Most of those guys will be reconing subs regularly.

[jonbearsmt 919]

Well let's see here, you have guys who run two sundown ns1 @ 18 volts with each amp running at .5 ohms , that would put you right around 16-18k on four subs , but hey sundown subs can only handle 1500-2000 watts. Lol

i run an ns1 at .25 on a pair of sundown 15's ... well i did... i still have the NS1 and the subs..

[mnorwood2114 8]

Well let's see here, you have guys who run two sundown ns1 @ 18 volts with each amp running at .5 ohms , that would put you right around 16-18k on four subs , but hey sundown subs can only handle 1500-2000 watts. Lol

They are rated at 1750rms. I didn't say what they can handle and as smart as you seem I doubt they will last very long, and who gives a shit what people are doing. Most of those guys will be reconing subs regularly.

[mnorwood2114 8]

Well guess what my amps were tuned with a dd-1, and there was no distortion or clipping whatsoever, and the subs were only in the truck for three days. They now rest back in there original boxing.

[mnorwood2114 8]

Thank you, that's what I'm saying they can handle plenty power. Hell I had two sundown zv3 with two 3500 strapped @ 1 ohm. And I never blew shit, clean power and tuning is key.

[mnorwood2114 8]

Yea I thought about it, what these guys don't understand is that yes the zv4 or any other sundown sub can go in a 4th order, 6th , and even ported wall. But I like 4th orders, according to the parameters they would do good in a 4th. There a lot of people who run sundown equipment in 4ths and have excellent results, and there is no reason why I can't do the same, I have the power, space available, and great subs. I'm sure a 6th would be loud as hell to, but I just want to do a 4th order.

[ssh 924]

Yea I thought about it, what these guys don't understand is that yes the zv4 or any other sundown sub can go in a 4th order, 6th , and even ported wall. But I like 4th orders, according to the parameters they would do good in a 4th. There a lot of people who run sundown equipment in 4ths and have excellent results, and there is no reason why I can't do the same, I have the power, space available, and great subs. I'm sure a 6th would be loud as hell to, but I just want to do a 4th order.

Try a 3.15:1 ratio, it's suppose to be the shit!

Sundowners is awesome.

[jonbearsmt 919]

[///M5 2,833]

Well guess what my amps were tuned with a dd-1

Sorry you wasted your time "tuning" with a useless piece of hardware that is terrible for gain setting.

But I like 4th orders, according to the parameters they would do good in a 4th.

Perfect opportunity for you to enlighten us on what about their parameters make them suited for a 4th and how this could apply in you car. Ought to be easy for you since you keep citing they are so good in 4th order BP's.

And please stop calling any ported enclosure a 4th order, just makes you sound uneducated.

[ramteid 17]

Well guess what my amps were tuned with a dd-1, and there was no distortion or clipping whatsoever, and the subs were only in the truck for three days. They now rest back in there original boxing.

Dd-1 doesnt look for clipping. Also, just because you use a dd-1, or even an o-scope, does not mean that you will have no issues

[Impious 1,476]

Yea I thought about it, what these guys don't understand is that yes the zv4 or any other sundown sub can go in a 4th order, 6th , and even ported wall. But I like 4th orders, according to the parameters they would do good in a 4th. There a lot of people who run sundown equipment in 4ths and have excellent results, and there is no reason why I can't do the same, I have the power, space available, and great subs. I'm sure a 6th would be loud as hell to, but I just want to do a 4th order.

You do realize that any enclosure with a high pass roll off that approximates 24db/oct is a 4th order alignment, correct? Just using the term 4th order is extremely vague. A band pass enclosure can be 4th order, but not all 4th orders are band pass enclosures. A standard ported enclosure is also a 4th order alignment. So when you simply say you want a "4th order" it could just as easily mean a ported enclosure as it does a band pass enclosure, or any other enclosure alignment that results in a 24db/oct roll off.

[Impious 1,476]

Well guess what my amps were tuned with a dd-1, and there was no distortion or clipping whatsoever,

Um, no.

Clearly you also don't understand the use or limitations of a DD1.

[mnorwood2114 8]

Listen whatever , I'm not about to argue with you guys, to the guy that said try the 3:1 ratio yea I will probably use that. I'm going to get this done and I'll be back with more vicious hairtricks than I was with the ported box. So to those that helped thanks a lot.

[///M5 2,833]

Everyone who said use 3:1 was joking. Seriously.

So you know it is good for a 4th BP, yet you can't state why? In other words you just want it to be because you want to try one. If you are okay with that even though it won't net you as good of results as a different alternative go ahead. If you aren't okay with having a less than optimized system then spend the time to answer the question. When you do you will finally have learned something.

[ramteid 17]

Listen whatever , I'm not about to argue with you guys, to the guy that said try the 3:1 ratio yea I will probably use that. I'm going to get this done and I'll be back with more vicious hairtricks than I was with the ported box. So to those that helped thanks a lot.

Youre going from non wall to a wall, just walling and doing a ported enclosure will net you those results, if done properly.

[mnorwood2114 8]

Everyone who said use 3:1 was joking. Seriously.

So you know it is good for a 4th BP, yet you can't state why? In other words you just want it to be because you want to try one. If you are okay with that even though it won't net you as good of results as a different alternative go ahead. If you aren't okay with having a less than optimized system then spend the time to answer the question. When you do you will finally have learned something.

[mnorwood2114 8]

Well let's see how about sundown told me they are great 4th order subs, how about the loudest jeep in the world/ world champion for multiple years in a row is running 4 zv4 15s in a 4th order wall and doing 160s, not saying that's what mine will do but I'm simply stating that the subs work great in a 4th. Just a simple as that. But this is my last message, so I already have a design now and I'm going to build it.

[jonbearsmt 919]

Listen whatever , I'm not about to argue with you guys,

 you dont have what it takes to argue with these guys

[ssh 924]

Some people have to learn the hard way. Unfortunately in this instance it's harder to learn when even a sub optimal enclosure should be very loud due to small cabin volume, cone area displacement, and power.

 

Using other peoples' records or measurements of output as supporting evidence for using a 4th other BP makes no sense at all. Their "db numbers" and results are arbitrary.

 

Forget about enclosure types and alignments, lets just simplify it to enclosure A and enclosure B.

 

If I tested enclosure A and it was 160dB then clearly it's the best choice right? What if enclosure B would have done 162db, or 160dB over a longer frequency range, but I never actually built enclosure B so I'll never know that. So in reality just because enclosure A is loud doesn't mean it's the loudest or the best unless you've tested other enclosures for comparison.

 

A lot of the builds for SPL are designed for maximum spl over a small frequency range, they're competing for numbers, not for overall loudness (though that's not always the case). So something built for SPL doesn't mean it's the best choice for music or "daily."

 

Another thing to consider is there's a big trend of people using 4th order BP and they don't know why they picked that enclosure type other then they heard "joe blah blah did 158 at 35hz" so it must be good, and so they build a 4th order BP. This perpetuates to where all these people are using it and therefore it MUST be good, and yet they haven't tested a standard ported enclosure or ported "Wall" for comparison.

 

It becomes harder to dissuade people from this mindset when people are using lots of cone area and power for builds because even if you have a shitty enclosure design more than likely it's still going to be fucking loud. "Dude it did a 160db so it works" Yeah but what if it switched to a ported enclosure and it did a 161, then what? There's many ways to accomplish a goal, but they don't all have the same easiness or efficiency.

 

Here's another analogy because I want this to sink in. You wanted to move a shit load of dirt and you filled up the trunk of a 2004 honda civic to move this mountain of dirt from point a to point b, and it took ten trips, but it worked. The proof that you moved the dirt (regardless of how many trips it took or how absurd it was) is enough to say it's not only a good method, but it's the best method. Now what if someone said "hey why don't you use a pickup truck and do it in one trip?," and you think "well everyone around here uses 2004 honda civics so fuck your stupid pickup truck." You would sound incredibly ignorant to say the least, and that's pretty much how you sound when you're insistent on using an enclosure alignment that you know absolutely nothing about other than other peoples' arbitrary numbers resulting from such.

 

I'm not exactly saying standard ported enclosures are better than 4th BP enclosures (though I believe 99% of the time they make sense over a 4th order BP in car audio builds), but I'm trying to make you open your eyes or at least question why people think 4th BP are better (scientifically not anecdotally).

 

Another thing to keep in mind is there is no such thing as a good ratio. The enclosure needs to be designed around the driver's parameters. Attempting to use some special ratio is no different than putting a spare tire from a honda civic on a dodge pickup truck (that happen to have to the same bolt pattern, hey it fits so it should work...). I mean yeah you can technically drive so it "works," but it's not exactly optimal or near the potential of the vehicle's handling abilities.

 

So yeah if you still don't heed any of the aforementioned advice after reading this than good luck, for only luck will bring you happiness with your latest enclosure.