upgrading my above bass frequencies?

[ncc74656 2]

I am going over my system and trying to fix things up for more quality at higher volumes. at present i have a 2 way setup bi amped with an alpint 1" silk tweet and a 10" crachendo.  so here is what im thinking right now: im looking at hertz speakers as we sell them at my new job and they sound amazing. so i can pick up a 2 way hertz (either 5.25" or 6.25") and get a new 2 channel amp for them. then i can run my 10" crachendos as mid bass speakers with high/low pass filters on my present amp.

 

does this sound like it might be a good way to build a 3way setup with what i already have or would buying a already built 3 way (6.5, 3.5, tweet) from hertz work out better do you think?

 

I was thinking of picking up a rockford P400X2 to power the new hertz speakers.   im not sure if i need a 3 way as ive never had one before but i think that it would help in my setup and i wouldnt mind using the 10's that i already have.

Edited December 4, 2013 by audio-neon
Removal of confidential dealer pricing.

[Impious 1,476]

Ditch your current front stage as soon as possible. Not a good combination at all. I hope you realize that, otherwise it makes the job of trying to help you understand areas of improvement much more difficult if you don't understand why the current arrangement isn't any good to start with.

Why do you think you need a 3way (other than it being most men's fantasy) ? And what are you looking to improve ? What are your goals ?

Unless you understand and have a need for the benefits of a 3 way front stage, I would recommend against it. Especially since you are still very much a novice, stick with simple. A poorly installed/tuned 3 way will be worse than a well executed 2 way.

My opinion....sell the 10's and go with a quality 2 way set. Use the $ from the 10's to either purchase a higher quality set do speakers, or towards improving the install with sound deadening, etc.

Why so you need a new 2 channel as well ? If it's not necessary again I would use that $ towards better speakers or improving the install.

[ncc74656 2]

my current amp is a bit old and having strange issues. also its a HUGE amp for a pair of hertz so i wouldnt mind going down a bit. 

 

I was looking at the frequency sweep that i think you posted a while back on teh 10's and if i am reading it correctly then it only has a usable lower range of 45-125 and then higher frequencies past 2K. but im not totally sure how to read this as there is no DB sweep but only ohms and frequency. maybe its just the wrong infromation for what im trying to determine.

 

I would like to go 3way as i want a challange and truly do not want to do "easy". I will have the help of my coworkers and boss who have done audio install for many years and my manager is a MECP master cert who has 50 years on me easily. still i need to do teh ground work and attempt to understand more about what im getitng into.

 

my thought with the 10 was maybe it could work as a low range mid bass, my sub is tuned at 29hz. my goal is to have a high quality system with high db.

 

this is what i was given by another member for the PWX 10's: 

Edited November 30, 2013 by ncc74656

[ncc74656 2]

you know what, i wanted to do 3 way in part because i already have these 10's and i wanted to put them to use.  another reason is all of my home audio speakers are 3 or 4 way and they sound AMAZING!!! so i wanted that same sound in my truck.

 

I do not have any 3 way systems on display at work but we do have them, i will see if i can grab a set to compare so i can get an idea first hand of what they sound like.

[Impious 1,476]

my current amp is a bit old and having strange issues. also its a HUGE amp for a pair of hertz so i wouldnt mind going down a bit.

I was looking at the frequency sweep that i think you posted a while back on teh 10's and if i am reading it correctly then it only has a usable lower range of 45-125 and then higher frequencies past 2K. but im not totally sure how to read this as there is no DB sweep but only ohms and frequency. maybe its just the wrong infromation for what im trying to determine.

I would like to go 3way as i want a challange and truly do not want to do "easy". I will have the help of my coworkers and boss who have done audio install for many years and my manager is a MECP master cert who has 50 years on me easily. still i need to do teh ground work and attempt to understand more about what im getitng into.

my thought with the 10 was maybe it could work as a low range mid bass, my sub is tuned at 29hz. my goal is to have a high quality system with high db.

this is what i was given by another member for the PWX 10's:

I didn't post that, pro rabbit did. And yes, you are completely misinterpreting the graph and your conclusions are not correct. It is an impedance and phase graph, not a frequency response graph. Unless you have a TON of experience it's hard to decipher the information you are looking for from it.

The lower graph is the impedance curve. The large peak occurs at the resonant frequency (Fs) of the driver. The width, slope and height of that peak is determined by the driver's various Q (damping) factors. Figuring out the Fs is pretty easy, determining what the graph is telling you about the various Q factors of the driver takes a trained eye and some calculations. The Fs and Qts (total damping of the driver) determine the low frequency characteristics of the driver. Combine those with the driver's Vas (not able to be determined from the graph) and you can then model the low frequency characteristics of the driver in various sized sealed and ported enclosures.

The rising impedance on the right side of the impedance graph is determined by the inductance (Le) of the driver. The lower the frequency the impedance begins to rise at and/or the steeper the slope of the rise, the higher the inductance is (comparatively). The inductance and subsequent increasing impedance inhibits the high frequency response of the driver. It can't respond fast enough to reproduce those frequencies. It really isn't just the inductance that creates this effect, it's a combination of the driver's inductance in relation to the driver's DC resistance (Re). Two drivers with the same Le but different Re's will behave differently.

The top line on the graph is the impedance phase angle. The large impedance variations affects the phase angle of the driver, which is basically how in- or out of phase the voltage and current are. The deviation in the phase tells you that the voltage and current will not be in phase at those frequencies.

Anyways....challenging yourself right now would be learning how to maximize the installation and tuning of a 2 way system. If you can't maximize a 2 way installation, then a 3 way will be a fail. Certainly you could simply hook everything up and it would "work", about as well as your current front stage "works"...which is to say it will play music but perform now where near how it should sound or anywhere near it's full potential.

First, home and car audio are completely different environments. Second, those home audio speakers have (well, should have had) a good bit of engineering behind their design and are not just cobbled together as you are proposing. Using something just because you have it isn't how you go about designing a quality system, especially when the product was probably a poor purchase decision to start with.

And you still haven't answered my questions.

[ncc74656 2]

ill check out the 2 way, maybe install it for a while to see how i like it before i buy. i also need a new sub amp and need to rework all my wiring so there are plenty of things to do first.

 

i had alpine type R component sets and they were very lack luster. the tweets would distort at nearly every volume level and the mids were never loud enough. they were very hollow and non existant. I went to a active xover and bi amp setup and that helped imeserably with the tweets but did not fix the mids so that was when i bought hte 10's. 

 

I have servere reservations going to ANY passive xover system

Edited November 30, 2013 by ncc74656

[///M5 2,833]

In general, most 3 way integrations in cars fail. Reason being is most people attempt them before they understand what changes are required and occur with processing to nail down a 2 way. WIth the number of variables going up significantly with a 3 way there is no way they can handle it. If you want to do that in the future, start playing with your 2 way like crazy. Adjust for every option of phase, change your crossover slopes and points to a variety of different locations and spend time listening to single drivers (not even stereo pairs, just the single driver). Teach your ears to hear the drivers struggle and then use what info you find to tailor the choices outlined above. This take weeks/months with a 2 way, a 3 way multiplies this by way more than 2.

Add to that the drivers you are trying to make work together won't and it would not help.

Great goal, just don't start there.

[ncc74656 2]

im not sure i can change the xovers on those passive xovers. i would have to kepe my BI amp setup and im not sure iw ant to start there. id like to see how the hertz factory xovers respond on my setup before i start changing it, if for no other reason than to get a base line for testing.

 

im a good couple months from being able to finish this setup idea as i need to spend a few days in the shop pulling crap appart and running new OFC wire. after that i need to get my doors rebuilt to hold tehse new speakers and angle them towards the occupants. pluson top of that i need a new amp and im not sure if i can use vendor acomidations this early or if i will need to wait.

 

would it be a bad idea to run a 500-800W amp on my SP4 just for the time being?

[lithium 358]

hijack: 

 

Is the Q factor of the resonance in the impedance graph the Qts?

[ncc74656 2]

second question that just poped into my head... if its more output i end up needing to balance hte sub i could simply add 2 sets of 6.5's with out any aditional tuning required? so run 4 6.5's, 2 tweets, and run the passive Xovers to start.

[lithium 358]

second question that just poped into my head... if its more output i end up needing to balance hte sub i could simply add 2 sets of 6.5's with out any aditional tuning required? so run 4 6.5's, 2 tweets, and run the passive Xovers to start.

 

nope, bad idea. check the wiki article on constructive and destructive interference. if you need to gain output you need to do it with 1 set of speakers. I think you need establish a baseline quality install (like everyone is suggesting above) then you can ask questions like do i need more output and so forth. 

[Impious 1,476]

hijack: 

 

Is the Q factor of the resonance in the impedance graph the Qts?

Yes and no. From the graph, with a little bit of algebra, Qes and Qms can be calculated. Once Qes and Qms are calculated one can calculate Qts using the formula (Qes * Qms)/(Qes + Qms)

[Impious 1,476]

second question that just poped into my head... if its more output i end up needing to balance hte sub i could simply add 2 sets of 6.5's with out any aditional tuning required? so run 4 6.5's, 2 tweets, and run the passive Xovers to start.

Not a good idea. For starters, you can't just add speakers to a passive crossover. Passive crossovers are designed to operate with a specific load. If you change the load the crossover is connected to, you change the function of the passive crossover. The crossover frequency would change, and any "extra" mechanisms built into the passive wouldn't function properly.

That's before we even discuss the acoustic aspect. It "can" be done to run dual 6.5s per side (active, for example, but not with a passive designed for a single speaker) but certain consideration in the installation and tuning needs to be given to the things such as potential cancellation, etc.

[ncc74656 2]

my manager has gone into that stuff a bit and generally tries to pull me back into a smaller install before digging into such things. we shall see what my next setup turns out to be

[lithium 358]

hijack: 

 

Is the Q factor of the resonance in the impedance graph the Qts?

Yes and no. From the graph, with a little bit of algebra, Qes and Qms can be calculated. Once Qes and Qms are calculated one can calculate Qts using the formula (Qes * Qms)/(Qes + Qms)

 

i'm familiar with those formulas but I was curious if the Q of the resonance calculated with Fs / half-power bandwidth corresponded to either Qes, Qms, or Qts. 

[Impious 1,476]

Now that I better understand your question....the answer is just not that cut and dry. Qts is simply the product of Qes and Qms and describes their combined system damping. Qes and Qms are both responsible for the shape of the impedance peak, and both of them can be calculated from the graph. I suppose since Qes is the main determinant of Qts I would presume it has more of an impact on the curve than Qms.

[lithium 358]

very interesting, thanks for the explanation.  sorry about the hijack op

[gprestonmoto 89]

Sorry this just pisses me off. Since when do we just post EA and dealer cost prices? You do realuze that can get you shitcanned right?

[ncc74656 2]

you can find those prices everywhere online, just trying to give context and full information with trying to figure out what the best route is.  they are only prices after all

[gprestonmoto 89]

Elettromedia begs to differ.

[audio-neon 34]

Dealer pricing is confidential, always has been and always will be. You might not have signed the contract but your shop did.

[AdamCatspaugs 0]

Spam removed