Why even buy subs? Rant inside: Tech related.

[b0r 1]

If you don't want to read my rant: Can someone explain how setting an amp with a DD-1 on track 5 with a 40Hz -10db can still cause me to overdrive my sub with STANDARD music. If I play my sub at 40 out of 47 volume for 1 hour, should the dustcap be warm? Hot? No change at all? 40/47 is less than the rated 1500 watts of the BL (at least at my best guess, especially at 13.8V instead of 14.4V). I want to protect my $1,000 investment in my trunk.

 

 

 

I have had a blast with my new Fi BL 15. My head unit's "unclipped" volume is 47 out of 50, and I have never had it past 40. It is very loud, and with a 1500W RMS rating, it is probably getting 1200W at Vol. 40 hooked up to a Rockford T1000-1bdCP. I worry about the sub too much to enjoy it, though. This is my most expensive car audio purchase at over $400 for one subwoofer. Over $400 for my amp and a custom made Birch box at $190 shipped.

 

Every time I get out of the car, I feel the dust cap for heat. I'm almost too nervous to even enjoy it. I have set the gains with a DD-1, which has been paired up next to Oscilloscopes and there's no denying that it detects distortion at the SAME time a $5,000+ scope does. But that's only with the 40hz -10DB tone. I mentioned to Nick that I didn't know whether or not to get the integrated leads, and he said the regular leads handle abuse better and are more tolerant to an incorrect setup. I said I'd be setting with a DD-1 and he said "A DD-1 will not help you from burning something up, if you put music through the system that is boosted higher than what the reference volume that is used on the DD-1 to tune the amplifier you will still clip it and over drive it."

 

Put simply, I don't necessarily know what this means? Does this refer to music that is chopped up or poor quality music? I only use 320kbps tracks in my vehicle. I don't listen to anything chopped/screwed/transcoded etc. So, can we actually even prevent overdriving and/or clipping a sub? Well the answer is yes, because people slam $10,000 systems all day without a problem. My friends amp just started leaking DC into the speaker channels, melted the cup terminal on the box and nearly blew the sub. I am hoping my amp has protection from this issue, because we had no idea it was happening.

 

Should subs ever be hot after playing for a while? My box is so big that I can't get to my amp under the false floor to feel it, so I just set the gains and hope it doesn't blow? That doesn't sound like something I'd do with a $1,000 investment...it sounds silly to me. So the ultimate question is: HOW in the world do you setup a system that will not put the $400 subwoofer at risk of damage? There's no straight answer anywhere. Anytime I say I set it with a DD-1, people say that doesn't matter and it's still capable of blowing...how? I think I need to learn more about the 40Hz tones.

 

My head unit has everything off. No EQ, no boosts, the 4.1 settings are all turned to -6 so I can turn it up higher without being so loud on the highs. The Bass Boost is OFF at the amp, Infrasonic filter is on set to 29Hz and the box is tuned to 31.8 Hz according to my builder. The only thing that is up is the Subwoofer level is +6. Gains were set AFTER all of these settings. Strangely, I could HEAR the distortion from my amp. As I turned the gain up, this weird static sound came from the Amp as soon as the DD-1 detected distortion. So what is the fool-proof system? Should I review ALL of my music in Audacity to make sure nothing is going crazy with the tracks? I thought the LPF set to ~80Hz and the Infrasonic at just below box tuning was enough.

 

I have been installing car stereo systems blindly since I am 15. NEVER had a sub blow on me, but also never had a setup that flexed doors and windshields. I think I listened at a lower volume and never tried to push the limits of my woofers. I want to with this BL because it's such a beast, but I don't want to be reconing every few months. Over paranoid maybe? I don't know.

 

I installed my system in a Charger and did all the wiring and everything for the headunit and amp. Everything is wired correctly, sub reads 1.3 on my voltmeter for Ohms so I should be good set to 1 ohm. I checked my amp for DC at the speaker channels and it went into the negatives or showed zero, so that was reassuring. I am not new to this, but I am new to understanding how there is no sure fire way to make a sub last as long as it's build quality. Thanks in advance for any advice from anyone in this area.

[///M5 2,833]

Not really sure what you are asking. Sort of sounds like you are asking if the DD-1 has any value which of course it does not. It is an absolute waste of money and 100% useless.

[b0r 1]

Not really sure what you are asking. Sort of sounds like you are asking if the DD-1 has any value which of course it does not. It is an absolute waste of money and 100% useless.

Excellent. So can we explain why?

[shizzzon 461]

Because no matter what you use, one of two things will happen-

 

Your source material used to setup an amp is either going to be too low(like in your example) or too high(technically that's safe but you would always keep the amp in a state of outputting lower power).

 

So.. the best way is just to use your ears and nose.

 

Test tones are single frequencies.

Music is dynamic which cannot be measured properly, even with a clipping indicator.

 

 

IE- some people, like I, like to get an idea of how the gain is set on the amp, power-wise, when driving 3-7x the rated power to a sub for certain styles of competition. 

That doesn't mean by my findings i will prevent thermal failure..  No, it gives me an idea of the time i will have and when to start looking for thermal failure.  This is also valid for proper fusing in competition, etc.. 

 

But notice how i keep bringing up competition. 

For daily driving, you do not need anything made by SMD and that's a fact.

Should be in science books.

[b0r 1]

Because no matter what you use, one of two things will happen-

 

Your source material used to setup an amp is either going to be too low(like in your example) or too high(technically that's safe but you would always keep the amp in a state of outputting lower power).

 

So.. the best way is just to use your ears and nose.

 

Test tones are single frequencies.

Music is dynamic which cannot be measured properly, even with a clipping indicator.

 

 

IE- some people, like I, like to get an idea of how the gain is set on the amp, power-wise, when driving 3-7x the rated power to a sub for certain styles of competition. 

That doesn't mean by my findings i will prevent thermal failure..  No, it gives me an idea of the time i will have and when to start looking for thermal failure.  This is also valid for proper fusing in competition, etc.. 

 

But notice how i keep bringing up competition. 

For daily driving, you do not need anything made by SMD and that's a fact.

Should be in science books.

 

Well, they did a great job advertising it as something that would end all of your worries as far as clipping your subwoofer. Smells work, but right now I am getting paint from the port in my box only, and I imagine with the windows down and sub and port facing in vehicle I may never smell anything, which is why I always give a touch to my cone after an hour or so to make sure I'm not burning anything up.

[shizzzon 461]

I'm not going to take aim at any one person or forum but over here, we despise deception.

 

It's better to educate the uneducated rather than sell things to the uneducated and let them remain uneducated.. 

 

However, we, even in person, can't accomplish this always as i've tried with some people.

 

Some people are just so ignorant that they either refuse or cannot comprehend anything.

For those people, they MUST pay for everything and it's their fault.

[azagtoth502 31]

Easy.......sounds like shit......back it down.

[b0r 1]

I'm not going to take aim at any one person or forum but over here, we despise deception.

 

It's better to educate the uneducated rather than sell things to the uneducated and let them remain uneducated.. 

 

However, we, even in person, can't accomplish this always as i've tried with some people.

 

Some people are just so ignorant that they either refuse or cannot comprehend anything.

For those people, they MUST pay for everything and it's their fault.

 

I can respect that, and I'm only semi-gullible. You have someone with a 30,000 watt system pushing a product that will keep your system running without damage and it's sort of a done deal. Comparison videos next to scopes, the whole 9. It FELT legit, but in the end, I want to KNOW and LEARN this stuff, and I'm the last person to think that 1 product is the end all, but it was pitched solidly to the uneducated. I KNOW and UNDERSTAND how the physical setup works, I've done it over and over to friends' vehicles and my own. But once we get to the amp and head unit settings, I pack up my stuff and leave, that's up to them. My ONLY recommendation is to NOT use bass boost, but let's face it, they turn it up a hair and they're hooked.

 

My interest is not blowing/setting on fire/damaging a $400 woofer in ANY way. Do you at least assume that NEVER playing at max volume can accomplish this? With the DD-1, my gain is BARELY up. My goal is to show off my Fi as I am really impressed with the woofer. I haven't really owned many "non-household named" subs such as Fi/DC/Sundown/DD or whatever else, primarily Rockfords, JL's and MTX's back in the early 2000's is what everyone rocked. And then came the Kicker L7's that people jumped on, but this sub is obviously impressive by comparison and much louder and sturdier than my RE SXX I replaced.

[b0r 1]

Easy.......sounds like shit......back it down.

 

Lol. I get it. And it currently sounds fine. Dust cap has never been much over my body temp at the hand and as I said, I smell the paint from the port and the sub is a week old so probably some glue and other things warming up for the first time.

 

*EDIT* And the only problem with "sounds like shit, back it down" is, my friends RE 12 hooked to a JBL BP 1200.1 sounded just fine, was slamming and sounded great, but also heating up to the point of nearly melting because the speaker channels were pushing DC voltage. But it didn't sound bad while it was thermally reaching failure.

Edited September 8, 2013 by b0r

[ramteid 17]

You are still most likely going to have soft clipping on that tone with using the dd-1. Also, you still have to pay attention. And what do you consider standard music? I know of plenty of songs that will be severly clipped when using a -10 tone.

[b0r 1]

Your typical standard recorded bass tracks young jeezy etc. I just meant that the song itself had no alteration. What I need to do is read up on the -10/-15 tones and how they work with music. The DD-1 manual is vague in that it states "Use -5DB for SQ, -10DB for an "in the middle" and -15DB for a louder system" but doesn't say you could potentially be causing any damage.

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

Ever 3 db power is doubled or halved if -3db so if you use a -15db hertz tone at 100 watts out put on the amp and play a 0db tone then the amp would put out 1,600 watts.

[b0r 1]

Ever 3 db power is doubled or halved if -3db so if you use a -15db hertz tone at 100 watts out put on the amp and play a 0db tone then the amp would put out 1,600 watts.

 

And my immediate assumption is that's a bad thing? Would you want to tune everything with a 0db or -5 db instead? Are all types of music variable with regard to db?

[ricksi30 923]

Ever 3 db power is doubled or halved if -3db so if you use a -15db hertz tone at 100 watts out put on the amp and play a 0db tone then the amp would put out 1,600 watts.

 

And my immediate assumption is that's a bad thing? Would you want to tune everything with a 0db or -5 db instead? Are all types of music variable with regard to db?

Don't use any tone, unless that is all that you plan on playing. Use your ears and brain.

[b0r 1]

 

Ever 3 db power is doubled or halved if -3db so if you use a -15db hertz tone at 100 watts out put on the amp and play a 0db tone then the amp would put out 1,600 watts.

 

And my immediate assumption is that's a bad thing? Would you want to tune everything with a 0db or -5 db instead? Are all types of music variable with regard to db?

Don't use any tone, unless that is all that you plan on playing. Use your ears and brain.

 

And as to the heat question? For those of you that have been slamming the same setup for months or years, any noticeable heat? Or just a general warmth to the cone?

[ricksi30 923]

 

 

Ever 3 db power is doubled or halved if -3db so if you use a -15db hertz tone at 100 watts out put on the amp and play a 0db tone then the amp would put out 1,600 watts.

 

And my immediate assumption is that's a bad thing? Would you want to tune everything with a 0db or -5 db instead? Are all types of music variable with regard to db?

Don't use any tone, unless that is all that you plan on playing. Use your ears and brain.

 

And as to the heat question? For those of you that have been slamming the same setup for months or years, any noticeable heat? Or just a general warmth to the cone?

Heat is normal any smells or extreme heat is bad.

[ramteid 17]

Your typical standard recorded bass tracks young jeezy etc. I just meant that the song itself had no alteration. What I need to do is read up on the -10/-15 tones and how they work with music. The DD-1 manual is vague in that it states "Use -5DB for SQ, -10DB for an "in the middle" and -15DB for a louder system" but doesn't say you could potentially be causing any damage.

Yea, a few months after i had my dd-1 i did research and learned. Ever since then the whole thing in that manual that relates to -5 db being for sq and so on is very asinine.

Even a lot of those unaltered songs can still clip with that -10 tone.

A quick break down for you is that, on tones, usually the rms value is half power of the peak. So a -5 tones rms would be -8 rms, a -10 tones rms would be -13 and so on. Although, on music its usually way less, so a song with a peak of -2 could have an rms of -7 to -12, usually but not always true.

[b0r 1]

Would I be better off setting the gains at a comfortable listening volume and a 60Hz tone with a DMM? 40V is what the 1600W/1ohm breaks down to according to the calculators.

[ncc74656 2]

i ran a BL on 2500W for a year and had no issue with it, it got warm from time to time and once or twice it smelled. i bought a SP4 and had the gains up to high and it set fire to the cab of my truck. the dust cap did get very warm but i figured if a BL could take it why not a SP4? end of the day just keep an eye on it. you can always set your gains to 0 on your amp/deck and then its pretty much a guarantee you wont clip it but you also wont be maxing its potential either, or your amps for that matter. 

[ramteid 17]

Would I be better off setting the gains at a comfortable listening volume and a 60Hz tone with a DMM? 40V is what the 1600W/1ohm breaks down to according to the calculators.

If you are set on using tones to set your amp then get a cheap oscilliscope like a dso nano.

About the only way to have little to no clipping ever would be to set your amp with a tone somewhere from 0 to -4. You wont get the most out of your amp though. No matter what you do you have to still listen, hear, and smell and make sure your equipment is not under stress.

[sandt38 448]

Why would anyone really want to "max out the potential of their subs"? Are you competing, or just being that asshole riding down the street forcing me to listen to your shitty music?

 

Anyways, no a clip indicator is not going to work as well as a $5K scope, in the hands of someone who knows how to use it.

 

Next, if you are afraid that you are clipping your amp, buy a more powerful amp. Headroom is a good thing. Every single component in every single one of my systems has an amplifier that is rated at significantly more power then each component is rated at. Set the amps correctly, listen for stresses in the system, then dial it back. Why would you want to buy an amplifier that you have to push to it's limits just to achieve your desired goal? You are pushing linearity, risking clipping, and building heat. None of these are beneficial to your expensive components.

 

Would I buy a Smart car to make the run from LA to Vegas at 100MPH, or would it make more sense to buy a Corvette to make that same run? Pushing a Smart car to it's absolute limit is not beneficial to the vehicle, but the Vette will have a ton of headroom.

 

Set the system at 0db for daily driving use. There is no need to push it beyond that. I am also quite sure that your subs drown out your front stage... awesome. I would dial it back further to blend well with the front stage, but I doubt your ultimate goal is sound quality. All my systems subs are set at 0db with my ears (I am listening for stress, not clipping), and then all are dialed back via the remote to achieve a flat system, not an overboosted bass heavy rattle trap. That way if someone wants to hear what my subs can do, I can safely show them, but when I actually want to enjoy my system, I can easily dial it back to normal listening levels in just a few seconds.

[///M5 2,833]

The only thing shocking to me is how often this topic pops back up. If you at all spent even 30 seconds searching this site you'd have never bought the DD-1.

Proven over and over and over again. There is only ONE purpose the DD-1 serves. And that purpose is to put money in SMD's pocket.

[NDMstang65 403]

Regardless of any speaker..period..they are ALL going to get warm.

 

Any and all speakers from a mechanical energy standpoint are horridly inefficient. They basically work like a hair dryer. The coil in a hair dryer isn't that much diferent than a coil in a speaker, the fan motor in the back of the hair dryer blows air over top of the coil that is wound to induce heat. The coil in a speaker moves converting electrical energy into acoustical output that you hear with your ears. The only problem is that well over 95% of the energy that is put into the coil is not used and is lost in the transfer process and is burned off as nothing more than wasted heat energy.

 

The amplifier applies power to the coil..in which it heats up.

 

The whole point is to a) don't get a bullshit amp that cheaps out on parts that causes inductive heating and b) when you smell the coil glue turn it down.

 

I've done that for years..with no scope..no dd-1..not a damn thing and have yet to blow a speaker or burn anything up.

 

Of course, this was before the days of full retard "BASS BOOSTED" music when things were actually recorded..decently. Some of the shit music that is out there today is most definitely the problem behind people burning everything up.

 

It's not rocket surgery..it's brain science.

[handman84 60]

Just to be a broken record and repeat and reiterate what has already been said: After blowing my first sub I stumbled upon SMD on youtube and fell victim to the dd-1 scam. I bought one along with a new sub and thought I was home free. 6 weeks later I had fried another sub. How could this happen? I used the dd-1? Youtube told me it was fool proof and would solve all my problems! Then I stumbled on to SSA and after some tough love and good, (although sometimes harsh) advice, I have been enjoying my current setup for almost a year with zero issues. Listen to your ears and nose, they will tell you what you need to know, and they do it in real time too! 

[shizzzon 461]

well.. try not to listen to your nose, it may sound smelly.