4th order sp4

[ncc74656 2]

i went though a sweep to find the frequencies that i prefer. i will list a few songs that i believe fit into this range.

ill compile a list and post it up here in a bit.

lets start with this, kaskade - eyes; has a 3 part segmented bass rise in the beat of the song. when it hits its 3rd and final octave that is the frequency i like the most in songs.

Edited September 12, 2013 by ncc74656

[ncc74656 2]

here is a second song copied at the time index that starts the crescendo to the song, a long rolling bass line:

 

[ncc74656 2]

Kito & Reija Lee have many songs that have this higher bass octive.

i do not want my sysetm to be devoid of all low bass i just dont want this low bass to be so much louder than the higher bass. such as in

Tantrum Desire - Reach (Dubstep Mix). there are a few octaves of bass and the lower deep bass is easily twice as loud as the higher bass in this song on my sub and i do not want this to be the case.

SKRILLEX & THE DOORS - BREAKN' A SWEAT - has higher bass through out its beat but not quite as high of bass as some other songs.

so let me know what you think, if im correct in my frequencies or not and how to get a flatter response at the same volume up into the mid bass.

to me mid bass should start around 250hz no?

Edited September 12, 2013 by ncc74656

[nadcicle 77]

As a heads up the sp4 does not like bass in this range as its a heavy coil that needs movement for cooling. Those frequencies with tuning might sound good but I don't foresee the sub lasting long on high power since the sub physically doesn't move as much air at higher frequencies. . Hell, my mid bass is 80hz with 12db slope currently for reference.

[ricksi30 923]

I don't like my sub playing that high either, it makes it very easy to localize. 

[///M5 2,833]

to me mid bass should start around 250hz no?

That is closer to where midbass stops.

My last car I had my sub roll off above 40Hz. Plan is to do something similar in my next car with my midbass set to roll off around 300Hz.

[ncc74656 2]

my BL sounded great (in my experience anyway) at these higher frequencies. that sub was also a flat wind but is its coil "lighter"?

 

could i use another sub for mid range bass then? use these crescendos for now on mid range and then buy say a 1500W sub for the mid range bass?

 

also, did you guys listen to those songs, am i correct in they sit in the 60-125hz range or are you guys just saying that what ever frequency those songs are at you know it wont sound good on a SP4?

 

if the SP4 is not the best sub for this i have 2 options, keep it and guy more what ever to fill the gap or sell it and buy 2 of another sub to try and make up for loss in volume, right?

 

edit: i do like the crazy low bass this SP4 gives me but i dont want that at the expense of the higher range you hear in those songs. i want both...

Edited September 12, 2013 by ncc74656

[swift 501]

You just need to realize sub bass will end around 80hz. You need a good midbass setup if you want "it all" 

Even a good sealed setup wont sound ideal for what you want. 

[ncc74656 2]

ok, what is a good set of PA speakers that will shake the entire truck at 60-125hz? i will look at rebuilding my SP4 box to a 32hz down from a 36 and try to maximize its potential on the low end.

 

can i make a hair trick sub/box with a single SP4 or would i need more than that? just curious.

Edited September 12, 2013 by ncc74656

[swift 501]

ok, what is a good set of PA speakers that will shake the entire truck at 60-125hz? i will look at rebuilding my SP4 box to a 32hz down from a 36 and try to maximize its potential on the low end.

 

can i make a hair trick sub/box with a single SP4 or would i need more than that? just curious.

Nothing PA is going to shake anything in the 60-125hz range. You will need good dedicated midbasses for that, not PA midranges.

You will need a couple nice 8's in the kicks crossed from 60-200ish for this. You will be looking at doing a 4 way setup if trying this which isnt easy to achieve.  You want hair tricks, car shaking midbass and everything else. Its not that simple.

 

You seem like you would be better off with two 12's in a sealed setup and a good set of components and be done with it.  

[ncc74656 2]

i had that sealed box and components last year.  i wanted louder

 

so PA's are not there for mid bass... what is a mid bass speaker then?

[jcarter1885 995]

Ive seen door flex from 4-10" Eminence Deltas per door, but your not gonna shake a whole truck (be realistic).

[ncc74656 2]

my current 10" PWx's will vibrate the truck, door, mirrors enough to not be able to see out of them. ive had people ask what subs im running with just these 2 mid range but what i dont understand is my BL in my 40hz box played the frequencies that i wanted and it sounded great. i went to this SP4 because i had little to no low end on the BL and now i have no high end and the low end is disproportionately loud to the rest of the music. 

 

the hair trick was just an after thought perk. i had build my current SP4 box with that i mind so i had hte port facing forward and the sub facing forward directly between the front seats. did not move enough air tho

Edited September 12, 2013 by ncc74656

[///M5 2,833]

No low end on a BL was a box problem.

With a broad frequency response you will lose output plain and simple, no way around that.

Pro Audio midbasses could potentially do what you need, but so could a different set of subs optimized for the task at hand. No matter what you choose you are going to need some processing to pull it off.

Out of curiousity, you say you wanted more than when you had your BL and components. What was lacking then?

[ncc74656 2]

well i had a pair of kicker back when i had components. when i upgraded to the BL i was only able to use at 60% volume on the sub or it would totally drowned out the audio from the alpine X component system i had. my amp for the components was way over kill so i figured id turn the bass down on the mids and see how much volume i could get to over come the bass from the sub. they melted and smoked. after that i bought the 10" PWX with the tought of more power and larger cone means more audio and this worked perfectly at first. the vocals and music notes were clear and crisp, they were able to keep up with the BL and all was good. (also at this time i added a 3way active cross over). so then i wanted more bass, more vibration, more volume so i traded my 1500.1 for a 2500.1 on the BL and that added quite a bit of bass and i ran with that for about 5 months. (the BL was fully loaded so putting an extra 1KW into it didnt seem to be a problem). so now i had this huge amp and i needed a new alternator and more batteries, i started buying this and i heard a friends sub (eclipse 18) that destroyed my sub in the lows. i knew the box was to blame but i thought why not see if i can sell the BL and buy a SP4 so i can get louder? after months on craigs list a guy came to me who wanted to buy my sub/box for 420.00. well shit thats a good return on investment so i felt i had to take it, no telling when such a deal would come again. so i ordered the SP4 and started building a 1.5" MDF box tuned to 34/35/36/37hz (i changed the port length as i built it). settling on 36hz i felt was a good middle ground from the old kickers i had that i felt had zero high end bass and hte bl i had wich i felt had very little low end bass. my entire car audio experience has been getting one and loosing the other.

when the SP4 was hooked up the low down bass was so extreme that the mids were no longer able to keep pace so i swaped out amps and changed up settings. the PWX worked very well but with the increased power to the tweets they were starting to distort and i was loosing frequencies in teh mud so to speak. i intend to buy 2 more tweets to stick in my doors along with maybe 2 more 8" speakers to try and equal out the mid range volume to the sub.

now i have a home system (7.2 surround) where i have 2 10" 4 way 400W floor standing speakers in the front, 2 dual 8" 3 way speakers on the side 300W and 2 dual 6.5" 3 way speakers in the rear 200W and a dual 6.5" 2 way center speaker at 150W. a 15" 850W sub in the front and a quad 12" 1200W sub cabinet in the rear. ALL of these speakers are ported and i want my truck to sound like this system does in terms of quality. the receiver is a yamaha.

so the kickers were good low end but no high end, the bl was amazing high end with empty low end, the SP4 is ungodly low end with very faint high end.

edit: i feel that i need to invest in a eq and a second 2 way xover and maybe a couple more amps if i am to setup a 4 way system. what i do not know is how to get a frequency response up to 85hz and retain a volume the same loudness as a SP4 tuned to 32hz across the entire sweep. or at least semi close, plus or minus a few db is fine but right now i feel like i go from 100db to 20db in the blink of an eye when a songs bass sweeps through and i dont want that.

Edited September 12, 2013 by ncc74656

[///M5 2,833]

Difficulty is you need comparable cone area and enclosure where the roll off occurs. If you truly want ALL frequencies with no gap. Reality is you are going to have a gap, just have to choose where it is.

IMO you aren't ready for a 4 way, not even close.

[shizzzon 461]

Kito & Reija Lee have many songs that have this higher bass octive.

i do not want my sysetm to be devoid of all low bass i just dont want this low bass to be so much louder than the higher bass. such as in

Tantrum Desire - Reach (Dubstep Mix). there are a few octaves of bass and the lower deep bass is easily twice as loud as the higher bass in this song on my sub and i do not want this to be the case.

SKRILLEX & THE DOORS - BREAKN' A SWEAT - has higher bass through out its beat but not quite as high of bass as some other songs.

so let me know what you think, if im correct in my frequencies or not and how to get a flatter response at the same volume up into the mid bass.

to me mid bass should start around 250hz no?

 

Breakn Sweat-

Main line- 49hz.  Also, 64, 73, 82hz

 

Kito and Reija Lee- Run for Cover-

Main line- 44zhz.  Also 58 and 69hz

[ncc74656 2]

So with that in mind maybe it makes things easier. How do I make this sub respond from 30 to 50 Hertz as opposed to 125? a39 hertz tune would be very much in the middle, would there be a way to make this sub peak twice? Have one peak around 33 and another peek around 45 hurts? With a loll in between but not a drop off.

[///M5 2,833]

ncc74656, on 12 Sept 2013 - 16:42, said:

So with that in mind maybe it makes things easier. How do I make this sub respond from 30 to 50 Hertz as opposed to 125? a39 hertz tune would be very much in the middle, would there be a way to make this sub peak twice? Have one peak around 33 and another peek around 45 hurts? With a loll in between but not a drop off.

That isn't even a full octave, your box should already have a pretty reasonable response across that range.

[ncc74656 2]

hmmm. ok. what i feel i get in my present box is a very one sided sound. that is to say that i hear the bump of the bass and some rolling bass but i do not hear the subtle phases (maybe not the right word to use) as the bass sweeps across a spectrum in a song. as the bass gets up to the 45-50hz range (getting these numbers from what the previous guy said about those songs) the bass hollows out and i loose many magnitudes of volume. 

 

perhaps my box is an issue right now? i do not have my recone to test things out but im going to go outside right now and take measurements of my box and post them up here so you can tell me if its built how i think it is.  

 

is there anyone on here who would be willing to design a box to the specs they think i need so i can have an outside source to check my numbers against?

 

you say it isnt even a full octive, what is the definition of an octave in this context?

Edited September 13, 2013 by ncc74656

[ncc74656 2]

ok so i have a box that is 6.77 cubic and 35.4hz tune HOWEVER, the port is 3.5" tall but the small jog down of 3.5" is 4.25" from the back wall. i put the jog down on the face instead of the end of the top port so how does this effect the box?

 

i can fairly easily mod this box into a 32hz tune and 6.25 cubic as an experiment. think i should or should cut the port out of this box and build an external port and use this box for frequency testing before building a new one?

 

edit: if i cut this port out the box will be 8.53 cubic, is that to large?

Edited September 13, 2013 by ncc74656

[///M5 2,833]

Octave's never change in context, just differ based on the starting frequency. An octave is the same in music as it is on a piano, ie from middle C to the next C above it. If I gave you a full octave based on your starting frequency it would be 33-66Hz. Having a sub cover that range is not at all an issue. You don't want to target two peaks, but instead a mostly ripple free response between those frequencies.

[ncc74656 2]

ok so 33-66hz should be easily obtainable. that sounds to me like it would cover the range of frequencies that i want, no?

 

so a box tuned to what ever frequency will make that point the resonance and thus have a large peak there. if i tune a box to 33hz that will cause anything under 31hz ish to unload the sub and make little to no real noise and i could expect the top of the spl peak to be at 33 but how fast will it roll off after that? 

 

is it more in how the sub is built or in how a box is built that will allow me to fully utilize a single octave with a decently flat response curve? 

[muddybass 13]

you said your box for the sp4 was tuned to 36hz which is actually pretty high if you want a low end monster tune that thing to around 25 as far as your mids and highs problem I run a sp4 in my f250 and run 2 6.5 pwxs and 4 super tweets on a sax 100.4 and they keep up with the sub no problem at full tilt

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

the orders only pertain to the cross over slope tho right? so a box is a box and coupled with what ever xover is what determines its order. right?

Almost but no.  It has nothing to do with the crossover you apply electronically, but the mechanical crossover that occurs because of the box design.  The 4th order boxes will have a 24dB/oct slope with NO electronic crossover (of course outside of an SSF it is not so logical to put a HP).  This is irregardless of whether it is a normal bass reflex (ported) box or a bandpass.  The bandpass has an additional mechanical filter which is a Low Pass that will roll off the higher frequencies as well.  Personally I'd much rather apply this filter electronically instead of mechanically as it will allow you to change both the slope and F3 point of the filter.

Wouldn't that be an IRREDUNDANCY?