I want to widen my soundstage

[edouble101 314]

HU: Pioneer P99RS

Amp for front stage: Arc Audio KS900.6

Tweets: LGP 25NFA

Mids: JL Audio 4"

Midbass: JL Audio 8"

Amp for sub: Sundown SAZ-1500D v.3

Sub: (2) Fi Audio IB315

 

I think I have my front stage dialed in pretty good. My tuning includes, gain level setting, t/a, phase adjustment, rta (not relied on heavily), eq balance adjustments and crossover setting. Not in that order but those are some adjustments I made. I also meet with a MECA multi champion who was very helpful in the tuning process. The two biggest issues my setup has right now is slight smearing to the right side and I would really like the soundstage to be wider. The smearing of the center image is very sight but is noticeable if you listen to my system long enough and know what to listen for. I believe this is due to the off-axis driver's side midrange and on-axis passenger side midrange. Not anything tuning can fix. But the smearing is so very slight that only a judge or a trained ear would notice it. What is more important to me to fix is the width of the soundstage. Height and depth are very good. Height is just under the rear view mirror and depth is just outside the windshield. The stage width on the right is at the passenger side mirror and stage width on the left stops dead at the pillar. 

 

I am considering redoing my a-pillars. If I would I want to change the midrange to a Morel Hybrid Ovaiton 4W (I have these). I will make sealed pods for the 4W that will enable me to high pass these driver low. In the current configuration I am high passing the JL 4" at 250hz. I would be able to high pass the 4W's lower. I would like to change my tweeter to one that I can high pass lower as well. I would like to keep as much midrange duty in that driver. If I could find a tweet that I could cross under 1khz that would be great. I am thinking about using a Bohlender Graebener Neo-8 PDR.

 

Mounting for the Neo-8 PDR would be in the a-pillar, eye level. Mounting for the 4W would be as wide as possible. I am considering on-axis sail panel mounting the 4W's. That would be as wide as I could get them.

 

Here is a pic of the left side from the driver's seat.

 

Right side from driver's seat.

 

4W held in the sail panel.

 

 

 

What do you guys think of my thoughts on widening my soundstage?

[audio-neon 34]

I remember when I built my sq car, the tweeters were both aimed off axis in the a-pillars to help with the smearing issue. (basically they were pointed at each other).  I don't remember all of the details of the build, It was nearly a decade ago.  But I do remember sitting in my car, using a sticky tack (dum dum glue? iirc) and moving the tweeters around to determine the placement.

[Impious 1,476]

What are your crossover points/slopes?

[edouble101 314]

That its how my tweets are now. The top end slightly suffers from their off-axis performance.

[audio-neon 34]

I missed the part of the midrange being on/off axis. My apologies.  What about putting the tweeters on the bottom?  Or was that option already explored.

[edouble101 314]

Tweets high pass 4k@18db

Mids high pass 250@24db, low pass 4k@18db

Midbass high pass 80hz@12db, low pass 250@24db

Subs high pass 40hz@18db (very bloated bottom end a high pass at this freq to help flatten the response under 40hz) low pass 80@24db

[edouble101 314]

I missed the part of the midrange being on/off axis. My apologies.  What about putting the tweeters on the bottom?  Or was that option already explored.

 

I am not having issues +4khz. It is the lower midrange that is smearing (which again isnt THAT bad).

 

I do like tweets up high to help in stage height ques.

[edouble101 314]

Again, smearing is an issue but widening the soundstage is more important to me at this point. Although in a rebuild I do not want to have smearing

[edouble101 314]

What are your crossover points/slopes?

 

Quoted you this time

 

Tweets high pass 4k@18db 

Mids high pass 250@24db, low pass 4k@18db

Midbass high pass 80hz@12db, low pass 250@24db

Subs high pass 40hz@18db (very bloated bottom end a high pass at this freq to help flatten the response under 40hz) low pass 80@24db

[audio-neon 34]

Not a problem, the only reason why I offered that response was because I was under the impression that it was a 2 way system until I saw the x-over slopes.  I had just figured prior to that, that you were bridging to the mids for more output.

 

Once again my apologies.

[edouble101 314]

Not a problem, the only reason why I offered that response was because I was under the impression that it was a 2 way system until I saw the x-over slopes.  I had just figured prior to that, that you were bridging to the mids for more output.

 

Once again my apologies.

 

Hey man thanks for offering help 

[audio-neon 34]

Anytime, I just haven't been in the sq world for quite some time, heck in the audio world either, So I don't want to steer you in the wrong direction. I know that there are plenty of people here that are more knowledgeable, especially with 3-way systems and active systems.

 

I'm more of the "let's move stuff around until it sounds best, than visit my Iasca champion friend for the tuning" lol.

[ssh 924]

Looks pretty hard pressed to get more stage depth from widening the mids, specifically the left. Have you tried adding some delay to the left channel? It would be a very very small amount, or you'd start to notice the stage shifting off center.

[edouble101 314]

Looks pretty hard pressed to get more stage depth from widening the mids, specifically the left. Have you tried adding some delay to the left channel? It would be a very very small amount, or you'd start to notice the stage shifting off center.

 

I have numerous t/a arrangements. The end result is a shift in the center image which is either far left, center, far right. T/A has helped depth or creates a tunnel affect. If T/A is way off nasty phase issues arise.

[edouble101 314]

BTW I am currently reading this thread which i should have read first!!

[///M5 2,833]

What do you mean by width? Why do you want it?

How did you set your t/a, I see you have multiple which makes no sense to me. Understanding what you did would help?

What is center to you and why do you want it there?

How did you aim your mids and why?

Are you willing to sacrifice FR for width?

What do you hope to gain with a driver change?

How did you set your crossover? Seems a bit strange that EVERYTHING lines up. I've never been in a car where underlap or overlap didn't need to happen.

Lots of ways to optimize what you have. Most likely it'll involve aiming and fixing your t/a, but curious as to your goals before recommending action.

Beware diyma threads. Loaded with bs lately. Not even going to click on that one...

[Impious 1,476]

With lowpassing around 4khz on the mid I wouldn't expect it to be beaming terribly bad in that range, meaning on- or off-axis response should be pretty similar (radiating from the driver, excluding reflections).  I would more expect your smearing problem to be other FR issues or phase related.

 

IMO your speaker location isn't going to help your stage width.  You're probably getting some early reflections from the windshield due to the mounting of the midrange in the a-pillars that is pulling your stage in.  Reflections could be causing the issues with the smearing as well.   

 

But answering M5's questions would help a lot as well.  That said I'm not a huge fan of pillar mounted speakers due to the problems with reflections, so I'm probably going to be biased

 

Tossing the system back on the RTA would probably be helpful here.

[edouble101 314]

What do you mean by width? Why do you want it?

 

 

Sound stage width. Width referring to the "width" of the perceived soundstage. Why wouldnt I (or anybody that has SQ as a goal) want a wide soundstage?

 

How did you set your t/a, I see you have multiple which makes no sense to me. Understanding what you did would help?

 

 

As of now it is set by ear. I have tried using strictly distance measurements. This resulted in a center image above the steering wheel, left image crushed next to the center (due to having no width) and a large gap between center and right image. Tuning by ear resulted in a good center under the rear view mirror, left image

and right image equal distance from center. I have reason to believe that PC measurement may help in dialing this in and widen the stage somewhat. I have not adjusted T/A by PC but will be soon.   

 

What is center to you and why do you want it there?

 

 

Center, for now is the center of the car. If I could expand the left image outside the car by increasing stage width then center would be at the steering wheel. It is there for now because that is where it sounds best.

 

How did you aim your mids and why?

 

 

Currently my mids were (1) positioned for fitment in the pillar. (2) They are each aimed at the opposite apillar top corner to. This way neither midrange is either 100% on or off-axis. Not the best method by any means,

probably more-so haphazard than anything else. 

 

Are you willing to sacrifice FR for width?

 

 

I will need an explanation before I can answer. 

 

What do you hope to gain with a driver change?

 

 

I think that using a 4" midrange crossed lower than 250hz mounted high and wide would help stage width and dynamics. I also think that if I find a full range or tweeter to mount beside the 4" midrange to high pass 800-1khz that tonally and imaging would be best.

The 8" midbass that are in the kicks would be mostly used to help blend the subbass into the front stage playing a narrow band of frequencies. 

 

How did you set your crossover? Seems a bit strange that EVERYTHING lines up. I've never been in a car where underlap or overlap didn't need to happen.

 

 

Ah hah. No measurements were taken, well not yet. On my bucket list of things to do is to PC measure the response of the individual drivers FR and choose xover points at the 6db down point. Current xover points

are chosen based on manufacturer specs and tuning. Tuning-> adjust xover->listen and repeat many many times until the soundstage imaged best. I had overlapping xover points at one point.

 

Lots of ways to optimize what you have. Most likely it'll involve aiming and fixing your t/a, but curious as to your goals before recommending action.

 

I think I made my goal clear, to increase stage width. Which ultimately concludes to a better sounding soundstage. 

 

Beware diyma threads. Loaded with bs lately. Not even going to click on that one...

 

Good read from some very knowledgeable folks involved in the industry. This particular thread is a couple years old. Every forum has bs intertwined within useful information. Depends on the reader to decipher the truth.

[edouble101 314]

With lowpassing around 4khz on the mid I wouldn't expect it to be beaming terribly bad in that range, meaning on- or off-axis response should be pretty similar (radiating from the driver, excluding reflections).  I would more expect your smearing problem to be other FR issues or phase related.

 

IMO your speaker location isn't going to help your stage width.  You're probably getting some early reflections from the windshield due to the mounting of the midrange in the a-pillars that is pulling your stage in.  Reflections could be causing the issues with the smearing as well.   

 

But answering M5's questions would help a lot as well.  That said I'm not a huge fan of pillar mounted speakers due to the problems with reflections, so I'm probably going to be biased

 

Tossing the system back on the RTA would probably be helpful here.

 

After reading the DIYMA thread I referenced the cross-talk and glass reflections are drastically reducing my stage width. 

 

I am against kick panel mounting mids and tweets I think I will always have midbass mounted in the kicks. Just makes sense. I plan on attempting under dash midbass at some point though but not in this vehicle. And I do not like the "rainbow" soundstage with kick mounted M/T.

[///M5 2,833]

Setting t/a by ear can deceive you.  Pretty much the only thing I always use measurement gear for.  That is the first thing I'd fix.

 

My question on frequency response was loaded on purpose.  Adjusting eq for width has ramifications on the FR.  Also why I am not "clear" on your goals.  Aiming and minimizing reflections I'd try first.  Are you willing to forego the "fitment" to the pillar?

 

Curious on your comment "I think that using a 4" midrange crossed lower than 250hz mounted high and wide would help stage width and dynamics." have you actually played with what you have doing just that at lower levels?  Obviously doing what you want with eq to make it work.  Really understanding what you are lacking is always the first step in fixing it.  

[edouble101 314]

Setting t/a by ear can deceive you.  Pretty much the only thing I always use measurement gear for.  That is the first thing I'd fix.

 

I am planning on using the PC to set T/A this Holiday weekend.

 

My question on frequency response was loaded on purpose.  Adjusting eq for width has ramifications on the FR.  Also why I am not "clear" on your goals.  Aiming and minimizing reflections I'd try first.  Are you willing to forego the "fitment" to the pillar?

 

I am willing to redo the pillars. What do you suggest?

 

Curious on your comment "I think that using a 4" midrange crossed lower than 250hz mounted high and wide would help stage width and dynamics." have you actually played with what you have doing just that at lower levels?  Obviously doing what you want with eq to make it work.  Really understanding what you are lacking is always the first step in fixing it.  

 

I have not eq'd up under 300hz with only the 4" playing. I never considered that since that isnt how I would permanently use them. I will give it a try.

[ricksi30 923]

Awesome info in this thread!

[ricksi30 923]

How much of a difference have you noticed between a 2 way and 3 way active front stage? Is it worth it in a car? Assuming you have tried both a 2 way and 3 way setup....

[edouble101 314]

How much of a difference have you noticed between a 2 way and 3 way active front stage? Is it worth it in a car? Assuming you have tried both a 2 way and 3 way setup....

 

The difference is installation. 

[///M5 2,833]

I am planning on using the PC to set T/A this Holiday weekend.

Good. That should change everything. Make sure to not t/a to the reflection.

I am willing to redo the pillars. What do you suggest?

 

I have not eq'd up under 300hz with only the 4" playing. I never considered that since that isnt how I would permanently use them. I will give it a try.

These two are pretty related. Until you t/a right and play around it is hard for us to really know what you will like and/or need. Personally I'd always compromise on the staging for the frequency response, but I'd of course prefer not to compromise.