The McGurk Effect

[edouble101 314]

My current front stage has visible speakers in the a-pillars and kick panels. Imaging is great, sound stage is deep/wide and often outside the vehicle. I have wondered what it would sound like if the speakers were hidden. Would the sound stage be wider, deeper and even more transparent because I would not be able to visibly localize the speakers?

 

I stumbled across The McGurk Effect.

 

 

 

Just to give you an idea of how visible my front stage is. Hmmm..... time to start re-making a-pillars for a hidden install? And carpet over kicks?

 

 

Edited April 13, 2013 by edouble101

[Shogen 325]

you could use "dash mat" over the mids in the kicks??? 

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

About 10 years or so I believe it was Biggs and someone else build a SQ car (maybe a civic) with a dash made completely from grille cloth.

[edouble101 314]

you could use "dash mat" over the mids in the kicks??? 

 

I have enough carpet to re-carpet the car without cutting midbass cut-outs.

 

 

About 10 years or so I believe it was Biggs and someone else build a SQ car (maybe a civic) with a dash made completely from grille cloth.

 

Did it make a difference to have hidden speakers?

[lithium 358]

unless you're staring at your feet while driving i don't see a reason to cover the midbass up.

 

perhaps the simplest test would be close your eyes while listening to music. does it widen the stage? I'm guessing it will not.  

 

actually, when i tune my car i typically make sure the head in pointing straight (as if i were driving) and close my eyes. i'm not sure why i started closing my eyes while tuning, perhaps just to concentrate more.. 

Edited April 13, 2013 by lithium

[lithium 358]

the mcgurk thing is just lip reading... and speaker don't have lips 

[Adrian_D 520]

Easy to try, take a listen when it's completely dark. 

 

I had tweeters in the A-pillar, disconnected, and people always complimented me on how well they sound. All that time the fullranges in the kicks were playing from 250 Hz up. 

[///M5 2,833]

close your eyes, take a sugar pill, it's all the same

[Tirefryr 1,742]

Personally, I think vision plays the largest role.  The judges see your drivers and the brain perceives the sound is coming from them.  Hide the pillar drivers, and make a fake pod to sit on the hood to draw their eyes out and in the middle and I think you'll score even better.

[Impious 1,476]

My stereo has always sounded better at night.  I've always assigned it to the fact that the view of the drivers and other interior cues/dimensions are diminished, but I don't know for certain.  I also usually work on speaker aiming and tuning with my eyes closed, I can concentrate better that way but the stage does seem to improve slightly (very slightly) when I'm not focused on the speakers themselves.

 

One competitor, Mic Wallace I think, started covering his rear windows with egg crate foam for competition.  Originally he tried it to see if it made a difference in response due to reflections off the windows.  The difference in actual response was minimal but he seemed to score better on stage width afterwards because the front of the car seemed physically "wider" having the rear darkened by the foam over the windows.  Other competitors used to put dots on the windshield for competition so that the judges eyes would draw the staging cues to the location of the dots.  Others would put unpowered tweeters in the pillars to perceptually raise the sound stage.  Not sure how effectively any of it worked, I don't know any before/after scores.  But people have been messing with visual cues for decades.

 

I would agree with Tire.  It's purely a placebo effect, but there can potentially be slight differences in perception based on visual cues.  In my install this summer I intended to have all of the drivers installed in such a manor that you can't physically see them, just to see if it made any difference and with my install plan it shouldn't be too difficult to accomplish (which was the main factor).  As suggested, before rebuilding spend some time listening with your eyes open and closed and see if you think you can perceive any difference.

[Adrian_D 520]

My stereo has always sounded better at night.  I've always assigned it to the fact that the view of the drivers and other interior cues/dimensions are diminished, but I don't know for certain.  I also usually work on speaker aiming and tuning with my eyes closed, I can concentrate better that way but the stage does seem to improve slightly (very slightly) when I'm not focused on the speakers themselves.

 

One competitor, Mic Wallace I think, started covering his rear windows with egg crate foam for competition.  Originally he tried it to see if it made a difference in response due to reflections off the windows.  The difference in actual response was minimal but he seemed to score better on stage width afterwards because the front of the car seemed physically "wider" having the rear darkened by the foam over the windows.  Other competitors used to put dots on the windshield for competition so that the judges eyes would draw the staging cues to the location of the dots.  Others would put unpowered tweeters in the pillars to perceptually raise the sound stage.  Not sure how effectively any of it worked, I don't know any before/after scores.  But people have been messing with visual cues for decades.

 

I would agree with Tire.  It's purely a placebo effect, but there can potentially be slight differences in perception based on visual cues.  In my install this summer I intended to have all of the drivers installed in such a manor that you can't physically see them, just to see if it made any difference and with my install plan it shouldn't be too difficult to accomplish (which was the main factor).  As suggested, before rebuilding spend some time listening with your eyes open and closed and see if you think you can perceive any difference.

 

 

It definitely sounds better to me too, at least imaging is better at night because of the lack of visual cues. "Oh shit, the stage is so high". Just think how much we rely on vision every day. Psychoacoustics / placebo, call it what you want, it's easy to take advantage of it. 

 

It's similar to having the seat vibrate slightly and distract your attention, the bass suddenly seems to originate from the back of the car. Or feeling vibration on the floor, there goes your stage height. Or resting your knee on the door and having the door vibrate. I've had experiences with both and actually did experiments with others to see how much they are affected. It's easy to get bored waiting for your car to be judged

 

One time I only had the right tweeter installed and my extra gauges on the left side. An "audiophile" actually looked behind the gauges for the tweeter. I was laughing my ass off at that point but it proved to me that visual cues are a big thing. 

If I ever decide to go to an SQ competition again, I WILL reinstall my A-pillar tweeters, I have a set of cheap tweeters for that purpose. 

[edouble101 314]

Visual cues do affect the sound imo. If I can not see a speaker then it is harder to locate by sound only. This is why hlcd's are so effective in producing a sound stage imo.

[edouble101 314]

I may not change my current install though. Kinda tired of working on it and it is quit good as is. I think that a hidden a-pillar install would make it slightly better though. Probably better enough to warrant it  beneficial.

[///M5 2,833]

Visual cues do affect the sound imo.

Absolutely not. Seriously impossible. Nothing your eyes do can affect the sound waves.

Your perception perhaps, but that is a choice.

[jcarter1885 995]

I may not change my current install though. Kinda tired of working on it and it is quit good as is. I think that a hidden a-pillar install would make it slightly better though. Probably better enough to warrant it  beneficial.

Are you gonna completely redo your a-pillars or just try and cover the speakers with grill cloth to see if it makes a difference. Or will seeing the shapes in the a-pillars still make you believe speakers are there?

[edouble101 314]

Visual cues do affect the sound imo.

Absolutely not. Seriously impossible. Nothing your eyes do can affect the sound waves.

Your perception perhaps, but that is a choice.

 

Agreed. Bad wording on my part. 

[edouble101 314]

I may not change my current install though. Kinda tired of working on it and it is quit good as is. I think that a hidden a-pillar install would make it slightly better though. Probably better enough to warrant it  beneficial.

Are you gonna completely redo your a-pillars or just try and cover the speakers with grill cloth to see if it makes a difference. Or will seeing the shapes in the a-pillars still make you believe speakers are there?

 

I would reshape the a-pillars while using the same speaker placement. I would also cover then entire pillar so the speakers are covered. I may do this idk yet.

[edouble101 314]

...... Hide the pillar drivers, and make a fake pod to sit on the hood to draw their eyes out and in the middle and I think you'll score even better.

 

 

Setting a pair of bookshelf speakers in front of the car would be fun test to see if a visual cue like that would draw your ears outside the car!!

[lithium 358]

 

I may not change my current install though. Kinda tired of working on it and it is quit good as is. I think that a hidden a-pillar install would make it slightly better though. Probably better enough to warrant it  beneficial.

Are you gonna completely redo your a-pillars or just try and cover the speakers with grill cloth to see if it makes a difference. Or will seeing the shapes in the a-pillars still make you believe speakers are there?

 

I would reshape the a-pillars while using the same speaker placement. I would also cover then entire pillar so the speakers are covered. I may do this idk yet.

 

but if it looks any less than stock you'll know the speakers are there. i don't see the point. 

[edouble101 314]

 

 

I may not change my current install though. Kinda tired of working on it and it is quit good as is. I think that a hidden a-pillar install would make it slightly better though. Probably better enough to warrant it  beneficial.

Are you gonna completely redo your a-pillars or just try and cover the speakers with grill cloth to see if it makes a difference. Or will seeing the shapes in the a-pillars still make you believe speakers are there?

 

I would reshape the a-pillars while using the same speaker placement. I would also cover then entire pillar so the speakers are covered. I may do this idk yet.

 

but if it looks any less than stock you'll know the speakers are there. i don't see the point. 

 

 

True. You would still know where they are

[Sencheezy 689]

Great idea, I've never seen this theory before. But I have seen many of these pratices used at local events. Many competitors completely darken their vehicles, either with some kind of carpet or mat, soemthing, that would lay over the windows so that it is compeltely dark inside. But I don't know, because I've seen both sides, hidden drivers and visible. Some of the best sounding install were invisible though, or transparent. I.E. factory location placing. I my personal expeirence, with the tweeters mounted on the dash, I would always "look" at them for sound. But now with the mini horns being used, I never "look" for where the sound is coming from, it is always just there. Really hard to explain, but I do get this theory, and I believe it is something you should try. How much of a differenc will it make, I have no idea

[SacredTanakh 67]

It looks so nice as it is, I wouldn't want to hide those beauties.