New "SQL" system for a metalhead - Right direction?

[pascalc 0]

Well thought out... Don usually is pretty quick, I'd just forward the email again and just mentioned you weren't sure if he received that email. You could also create a thread in the Sound Deadening section.

Ok thanks! I just forwarded the email back to Don as suggested, If I don't hear back from him by the weekend then I'll open up a thread in that section.

if your worried about size the Zed audio amps might be a better choice (or similar class D amps).

precision power p900.4 looks like a good option if you dont want to spend so much on amps. i see its out of stock on a few sites so perhaps a pair of the 2 channel p600.2's. then what ever sub amp you like.

a certain forum member is selling some very nice black jl amps in the f/s section as well.

Don is pretty busy guy, perhaps he missed your email or he is very behind. i would resend it. i've made a few purchases with him, excellent service!

edit:

parts express has a return option that will allow you to send back the drivers you dont like if they show no signs of mounting, etc. So it may be best, once you have a few options selected, to test them out.

Thanks for the amp suggestions! I will look into those as well!

As for PE, that's good to know, thanks. I never ordered from PE so I wasn't aware that they had such a good return policy!

[///M5 2,833]

The main reason to buy the Scan is if you need the small format. Flat on axis response isn't really your concern as in the doors they will be rather off axis. If you aren't sure on material I'd go listen to some mid to high end speakers at a real stereo store and determine which tweeter style you like the best. If it were me and I were you, I wouldn't spend the dough on the scans and would put that money elsewhere. Don't get me wrong they are one of my favorite tweeters and I have a pair, but again if I am not restricted to small format I wouldn't ever spend that much money on tweeters.

Do you have a headunit you are using? *you might have said already, and if so sorry I forgot* My personal preference is to have full control of the processing at the headunit. The easiest way of course is to buy a headunit with it built in.

[pascalc 0]

The main reason to buy the Scan is if you need the small format. Flat on axis response isn't really your concern as in the doors they will be rather off axis. If you aren't sure on material I'd go listen to some mid to high end speakers at a real stereo store and determine which tweeter style you like the best. If it were me and I were you, I wouldn't spend the dough on the scans and would put that money elsewhere. Don't get me wrong they are one of my favorite tweeters and I have a pair, but again if I am not restricted to small format I wouldn't ever spend that much money on tweeters.

Do you have a headunit you are using? *you might have said already, and if so sorry I forgot* My personal preference is to have full control of the processing at the headunit. The easiest way of course is to buy a headunit with it built in.

Ok good point, thanks! I looked over some of my notes I had taken when I was researching the tweeters and I am now leaning on either the Dayton RS28F-4 (60$) as my first choice or the Seas Prestige 27TDC06 (50$) as my second choice. I will have to find a stereo shop around my area that will let me listen to their speakers to be able to do a fair comparison of different cone materials with my own ears but in all honesty, I get used to something real quick (even sub par sounding speakers), I'm not picky and I'm easy to please (sounds bad, yeah I know ). So whichever tweeter/woofer that we can find, regardless of cone material, I'm sure I will be more than pleased with them. When its all said and done, installed in my car, THEN at that point id be more in a position to start "experimenting" out different tweeters, drivers, etc... in my own "controlled environment" as a learning experience. Since I'm starting to get deeper in car audio with this build then I ever thought I was going to get, I figure that as long as I setup something that's closer to my needs then my current system, I'll have a good baseline to work on and will keep learning more about the hobby as time goes on (upgrading, trying out new driver's, etc...).

So If my choice in tweeter is good for now, then I should start looking at some 8" woofers that cover ~80Hz-1kHz? Would you have some suggestions for me to get me started?

As for a headunit, I currently run a Pioneer AVH-4300DVD which I bought new last year. After searching through a bunch of HU's I ended up with the Pioneer for a few reasons (these are the main reasons why I picked this HU):

- Double DIN unit with an LCD (I don't like flip outs) to play DVD's/videos/etc...

- Three 4V pre-outs

- iPod/iPhone app mode to watch Netflix, etc...

- 8 band parametric EQ

If an HU exists out there that can almost match the above and has signal processing built in then you might be able to sway me in changing my HU I'm not willing to give up my LCD for DVD's, app mode to watch netflix, etc.. to have a built in DSP, well not yet anyways since I use those features extensively...

Thanks!

[lithium 358]

here's an idea to keep a double din. not sure if it keeps all of your features but it still has video and stuff..

alpine ixa-w404 with pxa-h100 imprint as the dsp.

i dont think you would lose much money between selling your current hu and buying these.

i dont think pioneer has a similar combination available that would allow you to keep your current hu.

my understanding is that the h100 is controlled from the hu, which sean pointed out to be important.

the h100 has some auto tune thing like the ms8 but i wouldn't bother with it.

here are the dsp specs.

Equalizer: 10 typical equalizer settings are preset at the factory for a variety of musical source material. You can select from - Flat, Pops, Rock, News, Jazz & Blues, Electrical Dance, Hip Hop & Rap, Easy Listening, Country, and Classical. The head unit will also save six custom EQ curves you create by adjusting the units built-in EQ. Choose the parametric or graphic EQ:

• 5- Band Parametric EQ: The built-in Parametric EQ allows you to adjust the following 5 frequency bands in 1/3 octave steps from -6 to +6 dB at a bandwidth Q factor of 1, 1.5, or 3
  
  • Band 1: 20 Hz to 80 Hz
    
  • Band 2: 50 Hz to 200 Hz
    
  • Band 3: 125 Hz to 3.2 kHz
    
  • Band 4: 315 Hz to 8 kHz
    
  • Band 5: 800 Hz to 20 kHz
    

  [*]7-Band Graphic EQ: The built-in Graphic EQ allows you to adjust the following 7 frequencies from -6 to +6 dB

  • Band 1: 63 Hz
    
  • Band 2: 150 Hz
    
  • Band 3: 400 Hz
    
  • Band 4: 1 kHz
    
  • Band 5: 2.5 kHz
    
  • Band 6: 6.3 kHz
    
  • Band 7: 17.5 kHz
    

Crossover: The active crossover can be used as a 2.2 channel (3-way; low-pass subwoofer, band-pass midrange, high-pass tweeter) or a 4.2 channel (2-way; high-pass front and rear, low-pass subwoofer). A crossover limits the frequencies delivered to a given speaker, so you send only the frequencies for which the speaker is well suited. The crossover adjusts the high pass filter or low pass filter of each band along with the slope and output level. You can adjust the following crossover settings:

• 4.2 Channel:
  
  • High Pass Filter: the front and rear outputs are individually adjustable; crossover from 20 to 200 Hz in 1/3 octave steps with a slope of Flat, 6, 12, 18 or 24 dB/oct, additionally you can adjust the output level from -12 to 0 dB
    
  • Low Pass Filter: the subwoofer output can be stereo or mono; crossover from 20 to 200 Hz in 1/3 octave steps with a slope of Flat, 6, 12, 18 or 24 dB/oct, additionally you can adjust the output level from -12 to 0 dB
    

  [*]2.2 Channel:

  • Tweeter/High Pass Filter: crossover from 1 kHz to 20 kHz in 1/3 octave steps with a slope of 6, 12, 18, or 24 dB/oct, additionally you can adjust the output level from -12 to 0 dB
    
  • Midrange/Band Pass Filter: a band pass has both high pass and low pass filters; HPF 20 to 200 Hz in 1/3 octave steps with a slope of Flat, 6, 12, 18 or 24 dB/oct; LPF from 20 Hz to 20 kHz in 1/3 octave steps with a slope of Flat, 6, 12, 18 or 24 dB/oct, additionally you can adjust the output level from -12 to 0 dB
    
  • Subwoofer/Low Pass Filter: the subwoofer output can be stereo or mono; crossover from 20 to 200 Hz in 1/3 octave steps with a slope of Flat, 6, 12, 18 or 24 dB/oct, additionally you can adjust the output level from -12 to 0 dB
    

Time Correction: The time correction feature delays the audio signal to the speakers closer to the listener. This effectively creates a perception of increased distance for those speakers. Time Correction allows the listener to be placed at an equal distance from all speakers for optimum staging. You can adjust the distance of each speaker and subwoofer (6-channel) to the listener from 0 to 132.7 inches.

Edited April 20, 2012 by lithium

[hondakilla98 29]

The iXA-w404 only has a 4" screen. He would want the 7"screen iXA-w407 which is what I have in my Lincoln, along with the PXA-h100. It's a great combo for a 2 way active front stage plus sub. But it doesn't have a CD/DVD drive in it. So unless he's willing to put his movies on an iPod and play them on the deck. He would want the iva-w505. Which is also compatible with the h100, has a 7" touchscreen and a built in DVD player. But it's quite a bit more money. If you go alpine and need an h100, pm me as I have second one I'm going to sell soon. I also have an extra ktx-h100 tuning setup.

Here is the 407 installed in my Lincoln.

Edited April 20, 2012 by hondakilla98

[///M5 2,833]

I am a Seas nut, but not sure that is the right driver for you. The Dayton maybe however. They did have some problems with them all meeting spec a while back though which limited how low they can play. That was in the first run and years ago so I'd "guess" they solved it by now. There are other options though. I'd pick dome material before going nuts.

As for mids, with your needs I'd be looking at one of these:

B&C 8ndl51

B&C 8sp21

Eighteen Sound 8nmb420

Beyma 8BR

Faital Pro W8N8-200

Faital Pro 8FE200

JBL 2118h (if you aren't opposed to used)

As I said before, not my normal recommendations but I think for your music tastes power compression woes are more dangerous than running out of midbass. Don't get me wrong, you will be compromising the lower midbass response and have to run your sub higher to use some of these, but you will gain a ton in the guitar and drum reproduction in particular in the tactile sense.

[Sir-Lancelot 216]

I ran the B&C8ndl51 and thought it was an excellent mid and can say it sounded sexy on metal.

Midbass was not terrible considering the bad Rep PA speakers get and I personally thought it had very good midbass with some EQ.

Vocals and guitars you can feel in your chest!!!!

Loved the B&C drivers.

Curious where M5 is going to go with the tweeter to match.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Sir-Lancelot

[///M5 2,833]

Tweeter isn't as hard. Pick a material, pick your mounting location and off axis requirements, pick a similar sensitivity (power normalized) and go. While a set of ID horns would also be stellar in this case, the amount of eq work required may be beyond the install at hand. Would definitely help a ton in the output realm, but then you'd need to start looking at an enclosure for the mids and perhaps even a port to help fill out the bottom end.

There is a trade-off here. These are not monster midbasses, but monster mids. Pretty much roll off in application below 100Hz, but his subs can play higher only sacrificing localization and the lack of power compression woes will really help in particular with his music tastes.

Getting any of those drivers into a bit more than 1/2 a cube tuned to the high-60Hz range will really bring out the bottom end too. That isn't necessary for the tactile chest feel he is after though and will be easier to attain in an 8" driver with a pro mid.

[liljestrand 244]

I'd just like to add about contacting don. When i was dealing with him we ran into a problem where my emails got sent to a junk folder so the first couple of ones he didn't see. If you send him a message on here or make a thread in the deadening section he is usually pretty good about finding your email after that.

[pascalc 0]

Been busy lately (snapped the forward band in my transmission, got it repaired; been tinkering with a new chinese ATV I bought for my daughter; being lazy and spending more time with my family, I can't always spend most of my time on my projects ) so I haven't had time to do much progress on my audio upgrade project but I've got some updates.

Don got back to me, as he requested I supplied him with measurements of my doors/trunk and he sent me a response with his recommendations for my vehicle. When I last spoke with him he was out of 1/8" CCF foam which he recommended over the 1/4" CCF but he was supposed to get his order in sometime last week week so im looking to place my order this week to start on the deadening (providing he did receive his shipment of CCF of course).

I did some reading on some various DSP's (Alpine PXA-H100 & PXA-H800, JBL MS-8, Audison Bitone). As it stands I'm leaning towards the Alpine units, particularly the PXA-H800. With the PXA-H800 (~700$ and the RUX controller, ~250$), I can do all tuning upfront and it will work with any aftermarket HU. And since it's a standalone unit, this unit should serve me for years to come (an investment really), if I decide to upgrade then this DSP can be moved to my girls car regardless of the HU she will have at the time. Alpine currently has the INA-W910 which is feature loaded and I could feed optical from the HU to the DSP but I don't need navigation which is one reason why I never considered that HU last year. But I'm looking ahead and later this summer Alpine is coming out with two new HU, the IVE-W530 and IVE-W535HD (iPhone App Mode support stated for August) but I couldn't find out much details about them yet but I read somewhere that they most likely won't have optical out (not a big deal since the analog input signal is supposed to be real clean on the PXA-H800 from the reviews I read). My second choice would be to get an IXA-W407 (~750$) with a PXA-H100 (~150$) but then I lose out on some of the iPhone App Mode functionality but I would be spending about the same amount of money for a DSP solution, and because I'm thinking long term then the PXA-H800 seems like a better choice for me.

As for tweeters/drivers, I'm still interested in the Dayton tweeters, I was reading reviews on both the RS28F or RS28A. The RS28F is supposed to be brighter up top which some say will help with off axis dispersion (which is a good thing since they will be mounted off axis) but the aluminum dome is supposed to have less distortion (which could be good since I plan to cross low). Now I'm not sure if this is correct or not but I did some reading on choosing a driver based on the TS parameters and from what I could gather, since I'm more concerned with lower frequencies I should ensure the driver has high efficiency and good xmax, then I can EQ in the lower frequencies (if needed of course) since I would have the headroom to do so.

I've narrowed my choice down to a few drivers, the B&C 8NDL51 or 8PS21 (the 8PS21 has better response in the low end around 100Hz but the 8NLD51 has a lower FS and better xmax), the 18 Sound 8NMB420 (the best response curve, I think...and the lowest FS, but xmax was lower then the B&C's) and finally the Faital Pro W8N8-200 (good response in the low end but not as good around 1-1.5K compared to other drivers, I think it had the best xmax of all but a FS of 74). Again if my statement above regarding high efficiency and good xmax is false (or not totally correct), then I'll possibly have to re-evaluate my choices.

I was hoping to start building my new subwoofer box/boxes soon but that might have to wait another week or two since I'm going for minor surgery this week and according to the doctor I should not do any lifting,sports,etc... for at least one week afterwards, and then slowly ease in to my regular activities. So we'll see...

[Impious 1,476]

The measurements I've seen of the B&C drivers show the company rated "Xmax" to truly be a 2-way measurement rather than a 1-way measurement. IIRC the 8NDL51 has a "rated" Xmax by B&C of 8mm, when measurements show it's true Xmax (one-way measurement) is actually 4mm. Overall very good drivers though.

18sound makes good drivers overall as well. The one's I've seen measured all did extremely well in distortion measurements with good usable response.

Faital I don't really know much about.

[///M5 2,833]

Brad outlined the concern with the pro audio mids rather well. You WILL run out of excursion to be a beastly midbass; however, that isn't what you are searching for. If you want the drums you are needing upper midbass which they all will be great at. The gain in efficiency comes at a loss of frequency extension, but IMO it's a compromise that suits your goals rather well. I've heard all the above and am impressed. I am also about to start a build where I think I'll be using the Faitals. Mine however is not in a car, nor is it something that should cause you to say then the Faitals are the right choice. I need an outdoor acceptable driver and have a need to fit similar constraints as yours albeit for completely different reasons. While it would be best to listen to each of them to decide, if you can't I'd play with them in WinISD in the space that you have available and pick based on the most appropriate response that includes the processing that you will have to protect and tailor the response of the drivers.

[pascalc 0]

The measurements I've seen of the B&C drivers show the company rated "Xmax" to truly be a 2-way measurement rather than a 1-way measurement. IIRC the 8NDL51 has a "rated" Xmax by B&C of 8mm, when measurements show it's true Xmax (one-way measurement) is actually 4mm. Overall very good drivers though.

18sound makes good drivers overall as well. The one's I've seen measured all did extremely well in distortion measurements with good usable response.

Faital I don't really know much about.

That's good to know! Thanks for the added information.

Brad outlined the concern with the pro audio mids rather well. You WILL run out of excursion to be a beastly midbass; however, that isn't what you are searching for. If you want the drums you are needing upper midbass which they all will be great at. The gain in efficiency comes at a loss of frequency extension, but IMO it's a compromise that suits your goals rather well. I've heard all the above and am impressed. I am also about to start a build where I think I'll be using the Faitals. Mine however is not in a car, nor is it something that should cause you to say then the Faitals are the right choice. I need an outdoor acceptable driver and have a need to fit similar constraints as yours albeit for completely different reasons. While it would be best to listen to each of them to decide, if you can't I'd play with them in WinISD in the space that you have available and pick based on the most appropriate response that includes the processing that you will have to protect and tailor the response of the drivers.

Awesome, that's good to hear, thanks! I will have to take some time and play with them in WinISD as you suggested and then go from there. Are you building some outdoor or marine speakers with those Faitals?

Every week I have been checking the Alpine press releases for updates and pacific stereo to see if the new Alpine's are in stock but no luck thus far. I don't want to rush things, I want to do things right so I have slowed down my pace on this project (plus summer is here and the activities are ramping up so time is even more limited). On the upside, my surgery went well and I'm back to normal so I can't wait to start building my box as well (which will be my next step after my deadening is completed).

And speaking of deadening, finally here is another update on my project. I received my full order from Don at SDS last week, (great service from Don, thanks Don!). I had ordered enough material to cover all four doors and the trunk to start with. I got some CLD tiles, Butyl rope, 1/8" CCF, MLV, 3M Thinsulate Acoustic, velcro strips and a maple roller. Unfortunately Don couldn't ship the HH-66 vinyl cement through the mail so I found a local source for it this weekend and picked up an 8oz can. Since I now have all my materials to complete the job, I'm looking to start my deadening this weekend since I don't have any big plans thus far (and hopefully complete, time and weather permitting of course). I took the entire day off on Friday for a medical appointment so I should be able to start on the deadening Friday afternoon. I really can't wait to hear the difference this will make!

[lithium 358]

you should be very happy with the results after deadening is done. take your time with it.

maybe start a build log? i'd love to see it!

Edited May 28, 2012 by lithium

[pascalc 0]

maybe start a build log? i'd love to see it!

lol, do you want a picture of the materials ok here is one hehe...yeah sure no problem, I will start a build log thread soon! I will link this thread to it and vice versa, and when I'm done deadening the car I will post up pictures of the work done so far

[lithium 358]

build tread would be great. good luck with the deadening