Aiming Kick Pods

[ssh 924]

Over the course of a few years, I've seen many different positioning ways for kick pods. Is there one way that's the best for imaging but due to the different dashboards on vehicles, you see some positioned differently?

I'm assuming it also depends what speakers are mounted in the kicks.

I'm using exodus ex-anarchys for midbass + midrange. http://www.diycable.com/main/product_info.php?products_id=538

I'm using peerless hds tweets for the highs. http://www.europe-audio.com/Product.asp?Product_ID=5233

Due to the size of my kick panel area and the relatively large mid driver, one of the drivers is going to be slightly tucked under the dash. I'm assuming it's better to "tuck" the mid driver, where as the tweeter might "go crazy" with something in the way.

As you can see, it won't be tucked in much...

Now onto firing angles. Green: fire across to the opposite seat. Purple: fire to the same side. Blue: fire directly into the "center hump" in dash.

So would the green be the best way for imaging? Or is it something that I should test out?

[cobra93 47]

Sorry to say it ,but I think you already know the answer to this.

I've picked up 4 of the anarchy woofers for a future build, new car.

Post your thoughts on the when you start messing with them, there's not allot of info. to be found in a search.

I was surprised to see how much smaller the surround is compared to my 6-1/2" sls, considering the anarchy has more linear excursion.

I've modeled them both, they graph the same, as far as strictly a midbass.

Time to do work!

[Randal Johnson 544]

I wish I could help you Sir ... But the SSA tech team does not like my advice ...

I would tell you everything the judges and mentors have told me over the years ...

If you would like to chat about this, I will be glad to help. Just send me a PM ...

Thanks ...

[steveo50 3]

cableguy you are use less! any input you have is ignorant!..jp man

[Randal Johnson 544]

That's what I've been told my brother ... Lol ...

Its all good though ...

I just don't see those large drivers getting enough air space in the kicks to perform correctly ...

And thinking the stage height (before tweeter contribution) too low and width too narrow unless you put a ton of processing on it ... If I was going to put anything into the kicks, it would be midrange drivers, not midbass drivers ... But then again, what do I know ...

[cobra93 47]

That's what I've been told my brother ... Lol ...

Its all good though ...

I just don't see those large drivers getting enough air space in the kicks to perform correctly ...

And thinking the stage height (before tweeter contribution) too low and width too narrow unless you put a ton of processing on it ... If I was going to put anything into the kicks, it would be midrange drivers, not midbass drivers ... But then again, what do I know ...

I've asked Mark about the airspace required to run down to 45 hertz, his answer was the smallest enclosure I could build would be fine for this goal as a midbass.

As far as above 250 -300 hz. testing will be absolutely necessary.

Edited September 17, 2011 by cobra93

[Randal Johnson 544]

Most SQ machines I've listen to had midrange drivers in the kicks and midbass drivers in the doors ... Me pulling my midbass drivers out of the kicks and going into the doors was the best thing I could have done for my application as a 2 way passive, and my crossover roll off is 32 htz ... And The drivers seem to enjoy it ... Also made my stage width A LOT wider ...

[Impious 1,476]

IMO the best starting position to work from is to aim the drivers basically at the back of the headunit. This puts them being aimed almost straight across the vehicle, angled "up" slightly. Reason this seems to work well is because it puts both seats at approximately the same listening axis to both sets of speakers. One of the keys to proper imaging is to have the frequency response coming from each channel (left and right) to be equal to each other at the listening position, and with both speakers being at approximately the same listening axis this alleviates some of the FR issues related to the speakers themselves on each channel (although this obviously doesn't solve issues related to the acoustics of the vehicle creating differences in the FR between the left and right speakers). And by having the speakers at approximately the same listening axis for both seats, this creates a better environment for the stereo to sound "good" from both front seats.

Sounding good to passengers isn't a requirement though. It's up to you. It's impossible to optimize a car stereo to sound good from two different listening positions. So by attempting to make it sound "good" from the passenger seat you're inherently going to have to give up something from the driver's seat. Ideally if you concerned yourself only with the driver's seat you would get better results than trying to also make it sound good from the passenger seat.

Yes, I would have the mid up higher and the tweeter down lower for the reason you mentioned.....it keeps the tweeter further away from the underside of the dash.

As for airspace......my kicks are vented into my fenders, so airspace isn't a problem Something to think about. Some people ascribe to the small is good theory......personally IMO that's not a great solution. Remember than an enclosure is a 2nd order highpass filter, and it affects the Q which affects the decay portion of the transient response. You can model the approximate response in any enclosure program, and you can mock up an enclosure for testing purposes larger than necessary then use wood blocks to raise and lower the enclosure volume so you can see what you think about how the volume affects the midbass response.

[Impious 1,476]

And thinking the stage height (before tweeter contribution) too low and width too narrow unless you put a ton of processing on it ... If I was going to put anything into the kicks, it would be midrange drivers, not midbass drivers ... But then again, what do I know ...

Stage height for the most part isn't going to come from your mids, it comes from the upper midrange and tweeters, which in a 2-way the tweeters will for the most part cover. In the midbass and lower midrange generally speaking your ears can't even determine "height", just left-right ques. The significant portion of the height ques are going to come from the tweeter in a 2-way. And following that the height has more to do with proper FR, proper time arrival and reflections, etc, and not necessarily the physical location of the drivers. If you sat in my car with your eyes closed I don't believe you'd be able to tell the speakers were next to your feet.

As for width, you're only losing a couple inches in going from doors to kicks. Not enough to make a huge difference in width, although the ability to aim the drivers and get them away from the reflections/diffractions from being behind the door panel (as most people mount their mids) can often make a larger difference.

In my car I get better overall imaging from the kicks without giving up really anything in width, and with venting to the fender airspace isn't an issue. But the main problem in my car with midbass in the kicks is I have a huge nasty peak that's generated. One of the things I should have done this summer was figure out if under-dash pads or something could have helped solved that issue but I haven't (forgot, dammit).....so for now I just let the MS-8 get rid of it for me.

[ssh 924]

IMO the best starting position to work from is to aim the drivers basically at the back of the headunit. This puts them being aimed almost straight across the vehicle, angled "up" slightly. Reason this seems to work well is because it puts both seats at approximately the same listening axis to both sets of speakers. One of the keys to proper imaging is to have the frequency response coming from each channel (left and right) to be equal to each other at the listening position, and with both speakers being at approximately the same listening axis this alleviates some of the FR issues related to the speakers themselves on each channel (although this obviously doesn't solve issues related to the acoustics of the vehicle creating differences in the FR between the left and right speakers). And by having the speakers at approximately the same listening axis for both seats, this creates a better environment for the stereo to sound "good" from both front seats.

Sounding good to passengers isn't a requirement though. It's up to you. It's impossible to optimize a car stereo to sound good from two different listening positions. So by attempting to make it sound "good" from the passenger seat you're inherently going to have to give up something from the driver's seat. Ideally if you concerned yourself only with the driver's seat you would get better results than trying to also make it sound good from the passenger seat.

Yes, I would have the mid up higher and the tweeter down lower for the reason you mentioned.....it keeps the tweeter further away from the underside of the dash.

As for airspace......my kicks are vented into my fenders, so airspace isn't a problem Something to think about. Some people ascribe to the small is good theory......personally IMO that's not a great solution. Remember than an enclosure is a 2nd order highpass filter, and it affects the Q which affects the decay portion of the transient response. You can model the approximate response in any enclosure program, and you can mock up an enclosure for testing purposes larger than necessary then use wood blocks to raise and lower the enclosure volume so you can see what you think about how the volume affects the midbass response.

I forgot about mentioning best imaging for soley the driver or both seats, I'm just planning on both seats. I'll try aiming for the center dash / headunit, tweeter on bottom. What about an aperiodic membrane on the back side?

[jonbearsmt 919]

i aimed everything at me!!

my left tweeter to my left ear, right speaker to my right ear

[Impious 1,476]

I forgot about mentioning best imaging for soley the driver or both seats, I'm just planning on both seats. I'll try aiming for the center dash / headunit, tweeter on bottom. What about an aperiodic membrane on the back side?

I wouldn't worry about AP. They can be a bitch to properly tune (getting the right density/restrictiveness of AP material to optimally affect the response) and IMO with a high quality driver and proper consideration to installation and tuning equivalent results can be obtained.

One thing a lot of people do which I've done in the past is almost a pseudo-AP enclosure by venting the kick directly into the carpet (if you're not willing to vent outside the vehicle). This gives the driver a little more breathing room and can also reduce some of the internal reflections within the enclosure.

[ssh 924]

I forgot about mentioning best imaging for soley the driver or both seats, I'm just planning on both seats. I'll try aiming for the center dash / headunit, tweeter on bottom. What about an aperiodic membrane on the back side?

I wouldn't worry about AP. They can be a bitch to properly tune (getting the right density/restrictiveness of AP material to optimally affect the response) and IMO with a high quality driver and proper consideration to installation and tuning equivalent results can be obtained.

One thing a lot of people do which I've done in the past is almost a pseudo-AP enclosure by venting the kick directly into the carpet (if you're not willing to vent outside the vehicle). This gives the driver a little more breathing room and can also reduce some of the internal reflections within the enclosure.

Hypothetically say I vented outside the cabin, how large of a hole would be required, could tubing be used or would it be too restrictive.

Otherwise I'll leave ~2" diameter hole in the bottom of the kick pod into the carpet.

[///M5 2,833]

I wish I could help you Sir ... But the SSA tech team does not like my advice ...

I would tell you everything the judges and mentors have told me over the years ...

And you'd misquote and show that you didn't understand them. Its amazing how confused you are.

I just don't see those large drivers getting enough air space in the kicks to perform correctly ...

And thinking the stage height (before tweeter contribution) too low and width too narrow unless you put a ton of processing on it ... If I was going to put anything into the kicks, it would be midrange drivers, not midbass drivers ... But then again, what do I know ...

More air space in your kicks once vented than your doors and no mechanical garbage to deal with either.

Me pulling my midbass drivers out of the kicks and going into the doors was the best thing I could have done for my application as a 2 way passive, and my crossover roll off is 32 htz ... And The drivers seem to enjoy it ... Also made my stage width A LOT wider ...

Midbass and doors is a mess when it comes to deadening and getting rid of the rattles. Of course with the antique drivers you are using that isn't so hard to deal with.

IMO the best starting position to work from is to aim the drivers basically at the back of the headunit. This puts them being aimed almost straight across the vehicle, angled "up" slightly. Reason this seems to work well is because it puts both seats at approximately the same listening axis to both sets of speakers. One of the keys to proper imaging is to have the frequency response coming from each channel (left and right) to be equal to each other at the listening position, and with both speakers being at approximately the same listening axis this alleviates some of the FR issues related to the speakers themselves on each channel (although this obviously doesn't solve issues related to the acoustics of the vehicle creating differences in the FR between the left and right speakers). And by having the speakers at approximately the same listening axis for both seats, this creates a better environment for the stereo to sound "good" from both front seats.

To clarify further a single seat installation it usually works out when both drivers have similar off axis aimings to your listening position. Generically the goal is to provide the same eq to both sides from a frequency response perspective so that you aren't moving the stage around during tuning to clean up either side. I too would say eff the passenger

And thinking the stage height (before tweeter contribution) too low and width too narrow unless you put a ton of processing on it ... If I was going to put anything into the kicks, it would be midrange drivers, not midbass drivers ... But then again, what do I know ...

Stage height for the most part isn't going to come from your mids, it comes from the upper midrange and tweeters, which in a 2-way the tweeters will for the most part cover. In the midbass and lower midrange generally speaking your ears can't even determine "height", just left-right ques. The significant portion of the height ques are going to come from the tweeter in a 2-way. And following that the height has more to do with proper FR, proper time arrival and reflections, etc, and not necessarily the physical location of the drivers. If you sat in my car with your eyes closed I don't believe you'd be able to tell the speakers were next to your feet.

Brad, you know that will be lost on the guy who thinks you need a center channel to raise and fix your stage. Ewwwwwwwww!

Hypothetically say I vented outside the cabin, how large of a hole would be required, could tubing be used or would it be too restrictive.

As big as possible, but if you consider a port tuned to the lowest frequency of your driver and an enclosure you just want to keep the mach down somewhat like in a ported enclosure. It isn't port sound you are trying to minimize but instead trying to adequately allow the driver to breath.

[ssh 924]

I wish I could help you Sir ... But the SSA tech team does not like my advice ...

I would tell you everything the judges and mentors have told me over the years ...

And you'd misquote and show that you didn't understand them. Its amazing how confused you are.

I just don't see those large drivers getting enough air space in the kicks to perform correctly ...

And thinking the stage height (before tweeter contribution) too low and width too narrow unless you put a ton of processing on it ... If I was going to put anything into the kicks, it would be midrange drivers, not midbass drivers ... But then again, what do I know ...

More air space in your kicks once vented than your doors and no mechanical garbage to deal with either.

Me pulling my midbass drivers out of the kicks and going into the doors was the best thing I could have done for my application as a 2 way passive, and my crossover roll off is 32 htz ... And The drivers seem to enjoy it ... Also made my stage width A LOT wider ...

Midbass and doors is a mess when it comes to deadening and getting rid of the rattles. Of course with the antique drivers you are using that isn't so hard to deal with.

IMO the best starting position to work from is to aim the drivers basically at the back of the headunit. This puts them being aimed almost straight across the vehicle, angled "up" slightly. Reason this seems to work well is because it puts both seats at approximately the same listening axis to both sets of speakers. One of the keys to proper imaging is to have the frequency response coming from each channel (left and right) to be equal to each other at the listening position, and with both speakers being at approximately the same listening axis this alleviates some of the FR issues related to the speakers themselves on each channel (although this obviously doesn't solve issues related to the acoustics of the vehicle creating differences in the FR between the left and right speakers). And by having the speakers at approximately the same listening axis for both seats, this creates a better environment for the stereo to sound "good" from both front seats.

To clarify further a single seat installation it usually works out when both drivers have similar off axis aimings to your listening position. Generically the goal is to provide the same eq to both sides from a frequency response perspective so that you aren't moving the stage around during tuning to clean up either side. I too would say eff the passenger

And thinking the stage height (before tweeter contribution) too low and width too narrow unless you put a ton of processing on it ... If I was going to put anything into the kicks, it would be midrange drivers, not midbass drivers ... But then again, what do I know ...

Stage height for the most part isn't going to come from your mids, it comes from the upper midrange and tweeters, which in a 2-way the tweeters will for the most part cover. In the midbass and lower midrange generally speaking your ears can't even determine "height", just left-right ques. The significant portion of the height ques are going to come from the tweeter in a 2-way. And following that the height has more to do with proper FR, proper time arrival and reflections, etc, and not necessarily the physical location of the drivers. If you sat in my car with your eyes closed I don't believe you'd be able to tell the speakers were next to your feet.

Brad, you know that will be lost on the guy who thinks you need a center channel to raise and fix your stage. Ewwwwwwwww!

Hypothetically say I vented outside the cabin, how large of a hole would be required, could tubing be used or would it be too restrictive.

As big as possible, but if you consider a port tuned to the lowest frequency of your driver and an enclosure you just want to keep the mach down somewhat like in a ported enclosure. It isn't port sound you are trying to minimize but instead trying to adequately allow the driver to breath.

So for an overall stage for both seats, try aiming towards the headunit.

For just the driver seat, aim both pods with same degree of angle on y-axis directly to the head rest?

The backside of the kick pod will be tucked under the dash and I may be able to run a 4" pvc pipe out and into the dash. Just have to measure the volume first and find tuning around 50hz.

[///M5 2,833]

So for an overall stage for both seats, try aiming towards the headunit.

Two comments.

- all rules of thumb fail

- "try" was the right word, but also implies that it isn't the only position you listen to them before settling on one

[Impious 1,476]

So for an overall stage for both seats, try aiming towards the headunit.

Two comments.

- all rules of thumb fail

- "try" was the right word, but also implies that it isn't the only position you listen to them before settling on one

Personally for any listening position (either both seats or strictly driver seat) I almost always start with them aimed basically towards the back of the HU. The key word is "start", that isn't always exactly how they end up. But off axis usually ends up working out best for me in the end. When doing kicks you should end up spending hours trying out different aimings, different positions, different arrangements, etc. You might find in your vehicle a different aiming scheme works better.

[ssh 924]

So for an overall stage for both seats, try aiming towards the headunit.

Two comments.

- all rules of thumb fail

- "try" was the right word, but also implies that it isn't the only position you listen to them before settling on one

Personally for any listening position (either both seats or strictly driver seat) I almost always start with them aimed basically towards the back of the HU. The key word is "start", that isn't always exactly how they end up. But off axis usually ends up working out best for me in the end. When doing kicks you should end up spending hours trying out different aimings, different positions, different arrangements, etc. You might find in your vehicle a different aiming scheme works better.

When testing for aiming positions, Does the driver need to be enclosed or can I simply hot glue some dowels to the baffle and mount the drivers (like a skeleton frame)?

[Impious 1,476]

No it doesn't have to be in an enclosure. Most people wrap the backside of the driver in towels to absorb some of the midrange and create some frontwave/backwave separation. It's not perfect but it works.

[ssh 924]

I can do that.

I got the ms8 today, ran the wires for the lcd display and mounted it on the lower dash for now. Exciting stuff ha.

[///M5 2,833]

And the real fun begins NOW

[ssh 924]

Not completed, but I'm starting to think about mounting it elsewhere (not a whole lot of room on the dash area for a clean look). I'll see what I can come up with tomorrow.

Pretty impressive cuts eh!

[ssh 924]

And of course, sex in the dining room,

I should start a new build log.

[Kanaworm$ 292]

Good luck on the build man! Some great advice given here. When I did my kicks I cheated and went with Q-Logic Q-Forms and they have served me well for my tastes.

[ssh 924]

Good luck on the build man! Some great advice given here. When I did my kicks I cheated and went with Q-Logic Q-Forms and they have served me well for my tastes.

Thanks, if Qlogic made something for my car I probably would have opted for that, or at least using them as a base, but I guess making my own will be better *crosses fingers*.