Going Active, Maybe.

[lithium 358]

what car is this going in again? i think i missed that somewhere.

2002 volvo v40.

The dash looks like this:

LMAO.

I'm not planning on adjusting the processing all the time

ROFL. You aren't planning on it, but you'll need to do it. At least for the first couple months.As for the question regarding deadening, constraining is better than just adding mass. Even better is to build them so they don't need extra constraints.

I've decided to do a 2 way, mid bass driver, and full range in vertical array (trying these: http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-3-fullrange/aurasound-ns3-193-8a-3-extended-range/ first since I happen to have some, then http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-3-fullrange/peerless-830986-3-full-range/ if the aura's don't play high enough.)

Way more headunits available for 2 way. Curious on your space. Having 3's stacked on top of each other gets to be a rather big "box" up in your pillar. Sure you have room for that?

Well the know the thing to going active is, you will always be adjusting it and adjusting it until it's just right. And "just right" won't ever actually happen lol. But I feel confident in using a laptop and several hours of detailed listening for months to come. :)So I just pulled out the 3" auras I had, tried placing them on the a-pillar as I thought would be rather easy and your right, they take up a fair amount of space.If I was to put a 4"-5" mid range in the dash (firing towards windshield) could this be something I could eq? Or as onebadmonte suggested, just put a coaxial (still in dash).In order for a vertical array to work properly, do they have to be directly on axis with each other? Or could one be on the a-pillar while the other is below and an inch off axis to the right?

on axis means shooting at yooo face, both side of course.

Yes but I wasn't sure it they had to be perfectly aligned.

pretty sure the mids have to be on the same plane. so both mids on the right would be the same distance from you, and same for the left side.

[ssh 924]

Okay multiple 3" driver just isn't going to fit.

So It looks like I'm stuck with a 4"-5" full range either firing almost up, towards glass, Or I can possibly angle it towards the driver if the depth isn't too much.

Uploading pictures now.

[ssh 924]

^that's the aurasound 3"

Figure if I used a 4"-5" driver and had a depth of under 3 1/2" then I could probably have it lower and aimed more on axis.

[ssh 924]

I've used the focal access 1 series in my fathers vehicles and been happy with the tweeter / mid range.

Perhaps I should just do this:

Focal 100 CA1

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_11729_Focal-100-CA1.html

It's small enough that I could probably angle it enough so that it'd point back at the driver seat.

[///M5 2,833]

How about your kicks?

[ssh 924]

How about your kicks?

If I had my entire front stage in the kicks, would it sound okay, since the mid range wouldn't be near ear level.

If that works out okay:

Or this might be the best:

Edit, didn't mean to resize the pictures that small, my bad.

[Impious 1,476]

IMO not a good plan to try to run tweeterless with the driver aimed at the windshield. Not a fan of reflecting off the windshield to begin with, but trying to do it with a driver running full range on the top end is going to be a bad idea. Also IMO not a good idea to try to run tweeterless with an array of midrange drivers. Due to the driver spacing you will run into some interference issues in the upper octaves which will mess up the response and you won't be able to EQ it out.

That said a 3-way with a midrange array I think is a good idea properly implemented. I wanted to try one this summer but ran out of time and money. I think an MTM in the kicks would work pretty well. But requiring a 3-way front stage will limit your processing options as you would need a "4-way" processor.

If you wanted to go with dash mounting about your only realistic option running tweeterless is to get the midrange drivers both on-axis with you.

[ssh 924]

IMO not a good plan to try to run tweeterless with the driver aimed at the windshield. Not a fan of reflecting off the windshield to begin with, but trying to do it with a driver running full range on the top end is going to be a bad idea. Also IMO not a good idea to try to run tweeterless with an array of midrange drivers. Due to the driver spacing you will run into some interference issues in the upper octaves which will mess up the response and you won't be able to EQ it out.

That said a 3-way with a midrange array I think is a good idea properly implemented. I wanted to try one this summer but ran out of time and money. I think an MTM in the kicks would work pretty well. But requiring a 3-way front stage will limit your processing options as you would need a "4-way" processor.

If you wanted to go with dash mounting about your only realistic option running tweeterless is to get the midrange drivers both on-axis with you.

I guess now I'm sorta against doing a three way since it'll require more processing and my budget won't allow for something like an ms-8, bit ten, and so forth.

If I could find a single driver say around 4" diameter with a depth less then 3" I could mount it in dash and have it on-axis with the driver seat (my dome, lol).

I may be able to fit a 4" diameter driver in the kicks along with the ex-anarchy, maybe maybe.

I'm pretty set on the mid bass drivers so I'll likely order those in a few days, once I get them then I can place them in the kicks and start making some mockups, see what space I have left for other drivers.

[Impious 1,476]

If I had my entire front stage in the kicks, would it sound okay, since the mid range wouldn't be near ear level.

My 3-way Bravox are all in my kicks. You can't tell, my stage is still ~6 inches above the dash.

If you are doing an array (even a small one) my opinion would be to stack the drivers vertically and not horizontally. Something similar to your 5th picture above. The reason I would say this is because the dispersion is reduced in the orientation of the array, which works to our advantage if you're trying to avoid reflections, and generally the off-axis FR is also worse in the orientation of the array. So if you stack vertically you are limiting dispersion towards the dash and floor which reduces reflections and you aren't sitting in the off-axis area, if you run the array horizontally you are going to have more reflections off the dash and you'll be sitting in more of the "off-axis field" from the opposite side speakers.....which isn't good.

Though again, I don't think tweeterless with an array is a great idea. If you have a 6" center-to-center spacing (with two 3" drivers) then the interference is potentially going to start around 2250hz and get worse as you increase in frequency.

[Impious 1,476]

IMO not a good plan to try to run tweeterless with the driver aimed at the windshield. Not a fan of reflecting off the windshield to begin with, but trying to do it with a driver running full range on the top end is going to be a bad idea. Also IMO not a good idea to try to run tweeterless with an array of midrange drivers. Due to the driver spacing you will run into some interference issues in the upper octaves which will mess up the response and you won't be able to EQ it out.

That said a 3-way with a midrange array I think is a good idea properly implemented. I wanted to try one this summer but ran out of time and money. I think an MTM in the kicks would work pretty well. But requiring a 3-way front stage will limit your processing options as you would need a "4-way" processor.

If you wanted to go with dash mounting about your only realistic option running tweeterless is to get the midrange drivers both on-axis with you.

I guess now I'm sorta against doing a three way since it'll require more processing and my budget won't allow for something like an ms-8, bit ten, and so forth.

If I could find a single driver say around 4" diameter with a depth less then 3" I could mount it in dash and have it on-axis with the driver seat (my dome, lol).

I may be able to fit a 4" diameter driver in the kicks along with the ex-anarchy, maybe maybe.

I'm pretty set on the mid bass drivers so I'll likely order those in a few days, once I get them then I can place them in the kicks and start making some mockups, see what space I have left for other drivers.

If you are buying an amplifier anyways.....you could always use the on-board xover in the amp to lowpass the midrange and highpass the tweeters. It'll limit your amp selection to something that will allow a high enough highpass/lowpass for the midrange and tweeter xover point, but then you could still get by with a "3-way" processor and run a 3-way active front stage with a tweeter.

[ssh 924]

IMO not a good plan to try to run tweeterless with the driver aimed at the windshield. Not a fan of reflecting off the windshield to begin with, but trying to do it with a driver running full range on the top end is going to be a bad idea. Also IMO not a good idea to try to run tweeterless with an array of midrange drivers. Due to the driver spacing you will run into some interference issues in the upper octaves which will mess up the response and you won't be able to EQ it out.

That said a 3-way with a midrange array I think is a good idea properly implemented. I wanted to try one this summer but ran out of time and money. I think an MTM in the kicks would work pretty well. But requiring a 3-way front stage will limit your processing options as you would need a "4-way" processor.

If you wanted to go with dash mounting about your only realistic option running tweeterless is to get the midrange drivers both on-axis with you.

I guess now I'm sorta against doing a three way since it'll require more processing and my budget won't allow for something like an ms-8, bit ten, and so forth.

If I could find a single driver say around 4" diameter with a depth less then 3" I could mount it in dash and have it on-axis with the driver seat (my dome, lol).

I may be able to fit a 4" diameter driver in the kicks along with the ex-anarchy, maybe maybe.

I'm pretty set on the mid bass drivers so I'll likely order those in a few days, once I get them then I can place them in the kicks and start making some mockups, see what space I have left for other drivers.

If you are buying an amplifier anyways.....you could always use the on-board xover in the amp to lowpass the midrange and highpass the tweeters. It'll limit your amp selection to something that will allow a high enough highpass/lowpass for the midrange and tweeter xover point, but then you could still get by with a "3-way" processor and run a 3-way active front stage with a tweeter.

Never crossed my mind.

So basically these are my options:

Option one

~4" diameter driver with less then 3" depth that can play above the exodus ex-anarchy to the point of a tweeter (or at least where I would need it). It could possibly fit in the kick panels along with the ex-anarchy, if there isn't enough space, then it would go in dash but facing the person in the seat.

So is there any full range drivers that you can think of that would fit those limitations, so much stuff on pe and madisound it makes hard to choose well.

Option two

I just resort to a nice small coaxial either in the dash on axis facing the listener, or mounted down in the kick.

Option three

use two 3" full range's in a vertical array in kick panel, along with tweeter.

Option four, This is what I'm currently leaning towards.

Use a 4" mid range in kicker along with a tweeter.

If I were to do option three or four. I could use the rockford 3sixty.2

http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/products/product_details.asp?item_id=106187

The outputs are: 6-channel RCA level (FR/FL/RR/RL/Center/Sub)

So it's technically a 3way but in my case I'd only be able to take advantage of the front channels and rear channels, so "2way" in my case. I could use fronts for mid bass, rears for mid range but leave the top open, then split that signal to another signal for tweeters. Then I could use the onboard amp filters to lpf the mid range, and high pass the tweeters.

The IA 6.4 has lpf and hpf up to 5000hz. Is this something that could work? Using a ~4" midrange driver lpf'd at 5000hz and a tweeter hpf'd at 5000hz.

Or I could try the 3" aurasounds I already have, http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-3-fullrange/aurasound-ns3-193-8a-3-extended-range/

Not saying I have to use them, but looking at the graph it looks like they should handle 5000hz fine. Just unsure if 5000hz is too low for tweeters or not.

If so, I can use a clarion crossover in between: http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_13514_Clarion-MCD360.html then I could hpf the tweeters at 8000hz.

So would some tweeters like the Seas Prestige textile dome, http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/auto-tweeters/seas-prestige-27tffnc/g-h1396-1-textile-dome-tweeter/ play 5000hz,8000hz and up?

The IA 6.4 is a 4channel amp but I already have a 2channel that I could dedicate for the mid bass drivers. Or the sax100.4 could be used in placement of the ia 6.4, it has the same crossover abilities. (I've heard a few things about sundown amps being noisy or having static sounds, not sure how true this is...)

I have great admiration for anyone who reads all this. Especially those helping.

[onebadmonte 235]

Don't be afraid to run that anarchy-ex, what ever the hell they call it, up to 3k. I heard them in a mazda 3 once. The mids were in the doors and the tweeters in the sail panel, uh the little corner of the door by the mirror. Anyways, the set sounded great, and got plenty loud. The owner of the car was toggling the crossover point from 1.5k up to 3k and it sounded real good. Granted he was running Morel Piccolo tweeters, but if your willing to pay for the focal 4" co-ax, the Piccolos might be viable. the midrange and mid-bass were great. He was running a Pioneer PRS880, or something like that, but an Alpine 9887 will do the job.

By the way good job on finding matching plaid shorts and slip on shoes.

[ssh 924]

Perhaps now I have it somewhat figured out, in response to Imp.

[lithium 358]

what im running in my car is midbass in the doors, 4" mid in the kicks, tweeter in the A pillar, and sub. however, im only using a 2way + sub capable hu, so my mid and midbass share a channel and xover'd at the amps while still allowing me to use TA on all channels. (the hu does the hfp for the midbass and the lpf for the mid, while the amp handles the lpf for the midbass and the hpf for the mid)

i've never used them, but would a dome midrange fit the bill? reason i ask is because these types of drivers have a closed back, so it would make installing them in the kicks easier. and the xover situation would be similar to what i outlined above.

edit for links:

problem is, i have no idea if these can loud enough for you, i have absolutely no experience with these..

Dayton Audio RS52AN-8 2" Dome Midrange

Hi-Vi DMB-A 2" Fabric Dome Midrange

[ssh 924]

what im running in my car is midbass in the doors, 4" mid in the kicks, tweeter in the A pillar, and sub. however, im only using a 2way + sub capable hu, so my mid and midbass share a channel and xover'd at the amps while still allowing me to use TA on all channels. (the hu does the hfp for the midbass and the lpf for the mid, while the amp handles the lpf for the midbass and the hpf for the mid)

i've never used them, but would a dome midrange fit the bill? reason i ask is because these types of drivers have a closed back, so it would make installing them in the kicks easier. and the xover situation would be similar to what i outlined above.

edit for links:

problem is, i have no idea if these can loud enough for you, i have absolutely no experience with these..

Dayton Audio RS52AN-8 2" Dome Midrange

Hi-Vi DMB-A 2" Fabric Dome Midrange

Heh, another way to do all processing. Unfortunately my head unit is basic and has none of that, but if I can already buy a dsp(3sixty.2), and use onboard amp settings / possibly add on clarion cross over, then it's gravy.

Depending on if I could get away with hpfing the tweeter at 5000hz then I could get an IA 6.1 and wouldn't have to get the clarion crossover ($80) But if I did need the clarion so I could hpf the tweets at 8000hz, then I'd probably just buy a cheaper amp (that can still lpf the mid range).

After getting mid bass drivers, processor, and some wire, I'll have around $400 left for the amp, mid range, and tweeters. Which isn't a whole lot.

I've been considering these for tweeters: SEAS Prestige 27TFFNC/G (H1396) 1" Textile Dome Tweeter http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/auto-tweeters/seas-prestige-27tffnc/g-h1396-1-textile-dome-tweeter/

I'm going to look for some 4" midranges, that way it's not lacking in output.

Perhaps this Seas Prestige 4.5" http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-4-midrange/seas-prestige-mca12rc-h1304-4.5-coated-paper-midrange/ would suit well with the tweeter. Why does madisound only list specs on half the drivers ughh!

And I would have to make sure I can fit the 4.5" along with the mid bass drivers.

Or I still have the possibility of using the aurasounds I have, in a vertical array in kicks, with tweeters.

[ssh 924]

I'm starting to feel the limited crossover ability in the higher range is really going to pull away from the entire concept of going active.

5000hz too low for a tweeter? With clarion crossover I can get it up to 8000hz.

The ex-anarchies can play up to around 2500-3000hz, so a mid range playing 2500-3000hz to 5000hz-8000hz (does that sound adequate at all?), then tweeter from 5khz,8khz and up.

My brain is mush from looking at speakers, dsps, and crossovers since yesterday morning. I'm gonna hop on the mountain bike for a few hours.

[///M5 2,833]

If you are doing a 2 way with anarchy, I'd just use a tweeter with it. No reason to use a full range driver to mix with something that can play that high. The reason for the confusion is that you started out asking for midbass and a driver that truly excels at midbass will usually fall on its face above 300Hz. The anarchy isn't that way, but it also isnt' a beast of a midbass. As good as pretty much the other 7's, but cone area is huge in particular when running IB. An 8 will be a big improvement but cause you the need to have something on the top end that will play lower.

If you are truly set on that as a midbass/midrange, then I'd just add a large format tweeter up top call it a 2 way and be done.

Impious is right on the array in a lot of regards, but its just another compromise. I've heard a very successful array of 2" full rangers and thought about it myself for a particular application that was tough to get to, but in your case that won't help so much with output. Of course the array HAS to be vertical AND on axis for it to work at all. Moving to 2" help a bit moving the frequency concern region a 1khz higher.

IMO, I really like the full range idea; however, I don't think its for you. Benefits of it are, voicing from a near point source for the great majority of the music, superb sweet spot for ONE person, ease of installation and crossover setup, less drivers to have anomalies to deal with, and it still lets you use a monster midbass that doesn't play high. You will suffer overall output levels as it is the classic tradeoff between bandwidth and output, you really can't have both. Initially in your thread it sounded to me like focusing on the midbass was ideal and the only way around this without 3way+ is to do a full range.

As for the kicks question, I'll take it one step further as well. IMO if you run passive and 3 way the ONLY way to do it successfully is in the kicks. In general for passives it is a much better idea, but there are exceptions just not with 3 ways. So definitely the only detriment in your install if you go that route is it takes a bit more clever work in aiming and processing to get your stage height up. Even if you didn't do this work you may still find some features of an install in the kicks beneficial as stage height is a secondary factor in sounding good to many people, myself included. Sure I'd prefer it high, but not at the expense of frequency response etc.

[ssh 924]

Sounds like I should just get large format tweeters and do all the processing with the 3sixty and get a 4channel amp.

Mount everything in the kicks.

That will fit my budget better.

Thanks for clearing up all my confusion.

[///M5 2,833]

So you are willing to compromise on your first need?

Okay I'm seriously considering going active for a few reasons: I want midbass with authority

Hate to be the devil's advocate, but when you ask for authority that means cone area. If you are completely sure that nothing larger will fit then the compromise was made for you. Just want to make sure this is clear. You mid will be effective, but needs more cone area and less bandwidth if authority is truly needed.

[ssh 924]

Yeah im compromising, not willing to give up anymore leg room.

Glad you bring it up though.

[onebadmonte 235]

Yay, another satisfied customer.

[ssh 924]

Yay, another satisfied customer.

I would be very lost without all the help from everyone on ssa, probably taken me a few weeks to figure out what we did in a day or two.

[///M5 2,833]

Don't get me wrong, it isn't a bad compromise. Going to sound tits. Have you looked at tweets yet?

[ssh 924]

Don't get me wrong, it isn't a bad compromise. Going to sound tits. Have you looked at tweets yet?

Just starting to look, these morels caught my eye, for no particular reason http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/soft-dome-tweeters/morel-mdt12-1-textile-dome-tweeter/

So im completely open for tweets.

Looking for something with a warm natural sound, nothing harsh. Since im not getting midrange my budget for tweets went up.

Budget is about $120 for the pair of tweeters.

Considering the JBL GTO1004 http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_12244_JBL-GTO1004.html for an amplifier.

[///M5 2,833]

Iirc, lithium has some hds tweets for sale