4th order build continued (M5)

[lb187 9]

ok lets try this again because the designer still wanted to get in on this convo.

I may not be the all knowing when it comes to Car Audio but i am a man with 2 degrees. I don't understand that how after you said all those lovely things about the designer and builder of the 4th order in question. How can you still say it sounds bad after not hearing it.

lol, still oblivious to the fact that when people are wrong they cant admit it.

A person who is well respected amongst the community (also as well learned about this subject as the best over here) said and i have to sum it up with this....

"I understand them saying that it would be a fail (if thats what they thought) before it was finished, but now thats its done, and clearly is loud and sounds great, why are people still saying "my opinion is it wont sound good".

Its already done. Its built. It plays. It plays everything. Its loud. Whats the problem?"

This is what i didn't get even after saying it a million times, it doesn't make sense the opinion that M5 holds.

Don't see what you could have taught anyone by making a last retort and locking the thread lol.

Anyways have fun.

I didn't lock the thread. Wouldn't have posted in it again if it was locked.

As for my statement, I'll repeat it and stand by it.

Ouch, someone's math is confused. Very confused. That box will not sound good...I don't even need the Skar T/S to tell you that.

It is not an opinion that in particular that 4th order BP was not the best use of space, it is not an opinion that the output of that box does not have a smooth response in the frequency domain, the only opinion is the one of "sounding good". If you and your cronies think that is a good sounding box then all I can do is pity you. I stated multiple times in that thread that if the OP likes it good for him, but that sounding good is not its forte.

As for why the thread was locked, it is rather obvious. Troll central without any information to support any claims. If the box designer wants to discuss his design that is more than fine, but obviously from the posts on FLSPL that isn't the case either.

Even funnier considering the "designer" had to start out with the same exact assumptions that I do. His led him to thinking it would sound good and mine that it won't. That should really be the only discussion here. I said his math was confused, albeit potentially based on misdirection from Malibu and not due to his own understanding. So two choices. Either his math is confused or he was misled and made something that isn't optimal for the goals at hand. "Good enough" perhaps for the OP perhaps, but his understanding of anything audio is obviously very small.

Lastly, feel free to post in here as much as you like but keep the emotional bullshit out of the Ihop. This is for off topic posts. If you feel you need to discuss this, please feel free to make a thread but take time and re-read it to make sure that it isn't emotional banter and actually has a point and a reason for discussion otherwise it won't exist either. Trolling posts will not be tolerated but any and all logical discussions are encouraged. I'll give you a hint, basing something in science instead of subjectivity would help a ton.

Your still telling me that all these people involved with Car Audio who have heard the car are wrong and your right regardless. The designer went off his experience as a designer/builder. We know what SQ is were not oblivious to the fact. Showing a graph compared to actual results.

You tell me why the 4th was wrong i want to know in detail. Because some very established vets in this game has heard this car and are amazed.

As for the original statement you also said..

"If you like one note wonders. Unless those drivers model REALLY strange that is."

"Umm, not really. Look at the response above. It will be loud, but far from good. " based on a graph from Honda,

"No, they won't sound similar at all. Generically speaking, the ported box will be just as loud but have a much flatter frequency response. The BP you have was "designed" to be all peak and no response. You can do the same in the ported but you don't give up as much. For getting loud and low 4th order BP are rarely if ever the solution. "

Wow is this just wrong ever heard of Noisy Cricket??

Middleweight BB Champ Inac Champ and 49.9 World Champ and points champ getting nasty doing really close to 60's daily from the same people. 4th order.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xgb7A2-IqUQ&feature=player_embedded

"FL is the king state of idiotic installs....

Your definition of well and mine are different. WAY different."

You took a shot at Florida....

"Close. They knew enough to really screw it up, but not enough to fix it. Physics Theories are not idiotic and not defeat-able. As I said before, I hope it does what YOU want it to as that is all that matters."

Theories are defeat-able and don't apply to real world variables.

I study theories all day long in my diff electronics classes. they may be close but never the"uniform standard" by wich all things apply.

"Definitely the state that leads in that regard. All the idiots running as many bullet tweeters as mids, now that's LOL. Frequency response seems to be lost there in favor of one note wonders. 8 out of 10 people that come onto here with hair brained ideas are from Florida, pretty commonly known. Nothing in the water there, just a following of someone who knows not of what they do."

well no one i know uses super-tweets for "mids" and again you took a shot at people that live in FL that are on the CA scene. Florida must be doing something right for some of the bigger CA shows in the country to come here.

"Some of the loudest builds doesn't mean jack if the enclosure is based on rule of thumbs or in other words luck. There is a science behind building boxes and when it isn't used the results won't follow. I am not implying they didn't use any, they may have chosen to build a box that is the size of a standard ported, has a peak that is no higher, has a poor frequency response, but farts one note. From what I have seen in FL that may make sense as a desirable feature. I just don't get it. ?

what evidence do you have to support this? I know many people that have a wide range and not one note wonders. Its not how we roll.

"

Actually what isn't funny is how keyboard commando's who don't understand science at all think they know more than people who design speakers and drivers. If you don't believe me then why not argue exactly how it is different from a scientific perspective. Anyone who's personal experience you trust should EASILY be able to do this for a simple 4th order bandpass box. They are not difficult to design. Plenty of free software available on the internet that doesn't lie. Sounds like you've already brainwashed yourself into believing hype that doesn't work nor is it scientifically even reasonable. Obviously you are also the type that succumbs to promises made on weight loss programs, muscle building drinks, diet pills, and so on. Snake oil doesn't work for anything good in audio, you should stop subscribing to it. Really simple to stop, just ask why. If they can't answer and have some semblance of math behind their answer they don't know and are guessing or following rules of thumb. One thing I can promise you as well, there are NO rules of thumb that always work in audio. NONE."

By your own admittance no rule of thumb works i believe this time it was yours..

As for the bolded i have to lol at using programs over 15 years experience of building/designing enclosures. The software will never be as accurate as a person whose built/designed.

"How can you design a box and NOT know what it is going to do? If you did, then I would say that isn't a design. You really shouldn't defend what you don't understand yourself."

Again you did not design this box but you said it was wrong in every aspect and a one note wonder. Which its is very very far from..

"Except yours is the opinion and mine is fact. No way around that one. I won't stop as it will allow others who read the thread to be misinformed, so if you keep trying to state that your subjective opinion is science I will continue to call you out on it. "

The car is not a one note wonder as you so intensely repeated before. And your telling others that what you say is gold... You keep yelling Physics cant be beat... if thats true why doesn't everyone run sealed enclosures?? In theory they are the best hands down... But are hardly used.

My overall point is you sit and say without a doubt having not heard it or had one hand in its design or build tell people its gonna fail. It did not.

So im hoping this wont get emotional and the Builder/designer can have his say also in wich he already asked you questions you refused to answer and retort with more questions..

Im not here to hate anyone, i just take offense when people say this is how it is nothing else your all wrong... Robin is a good friend and a good guy who deserves his props for the ingenuity he has and the ability to do what he does without using graphs and programs. Just raw skill......

[TRP 42]

So just another thread with no real meaning behind it? Or did i miss something??!! Can we knock this crap off already? Not directed at the OP just everyone who has become involved in this internet cat fight!!

[///M5 2,833]

You didn't listen that was emotional, come up with some facts and if the builder wants to discuss fine. This is closed as it will go nowhere.

[///M5 2,833]

As I stated before, I've already explained why it is flawed. If you want to have a discussion otherwise bring your facts to the table and not emotions.

[///M5 2,833]

Actually I'll leave it open and give you the benefit of the doubt that you can actually post something useful for discussion. If this goes into an emotional multi-post rant it'll get closed. IE, trolling for the sake of exposing something isn't going to be tolerated but if you have something to say that is fruitful go ahead. I'd start by posting a response to the VERY simple questions I asked.

[subssonicimpalass 0]

Don't mind me, just another "idiot" living in Florida. Just waiting for the responses....

I will say that it was pretty f-ed up of "certain" people to bash the ENTIRE state of Florida. You have to admit that that was a "emotional" post.

Just sayin....

[ssh 924]

Don't mind me, just another "idiot" living in Florida. Just waiting for the responses....

I will say that it was pretty f-ed up of "certain" people to bash the ENTIRE state of Florida. You have to admit that that was a "emotional" post.

Just sayin....

Agreed. Florida does have a reputation, but it doesn't apply to everyone. Can't fall for stereotypes. Black people like fried chicken. Or that Jews are cheap. Muslims are terrorists. Mexicans are lazy. And america's biggest threat is a mexican gay muslim grizzly bear.

[lb187 9]

when are you gonna post an answer to a very simple question asked to you.

Perhaps Ryan (The customer) lacks the knowledge to defend the enclosure that he paid the designer to come up with.

"I'm not sure if that has crossed your mind, but ponder it for awhile. When youre finished, Please explain to me why the enclosure does not work. Please explain why everything is wrong with it. You say that it is your mission to "Make peoples things work better, but you have yet to provide any alternative. You claim to be the guy that is here to increase our knowledge and make us better at what we do. Then do it bro, all you have been doing is criticizing. The only alternative that you have said is that "You should work with someone else"

You dont know a single measurement of the vehicle. I just dont understand how that doesnt matter"

lock it all your gonna do is avoid any good points you said all those things. Now don't want to revisit it.

Just answer the above question by the designer so he can respond to you and can fully understand your argument and no the insults.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Team Under Pressure-BigBoi

[subssonicimpalass 0]

Don't mind me, just another "idiot" living in Florida. Just waiting for the responses....

I will say that it was pretty f-ed up of "certain" people to bash the ENTIRE state of Florida. You have to admit that that was a "emotional" post.

Just sayin....

Agreed. Florida does have a reputation, but it doesn't apply to everyone. Can't fall for stereotypes. Black people like fried chicken. Or that Jews are cheap. Muslims are terrorists. Mexicans are lazy. And america's biggest threat is a mexican gay muslim grizzly bear.

What rep do we have? That we WIN!!

But really, I have never heard of this "reputation".

[ssh 924]

Don't mind me, just another "idiot" living in Florida. Just waiting for the responses....

I will say that it was pretty f-ed up of "certain" people to bash the ENTIRE state of Florida. You have to admit that that was a "emotional" post.

Just sayin....

Agreed. Florida does have a reputation, but it doesn't apply to everyone. Can't fall for stereotypes. Black people like fried chicken. Or that Jews are cheap. Muslims are terrorists. Mexicans are lazy. And america's biggest threat is a mexican gay muslim grizzly bear.

What rep do we have? That we WIN!!

But really, I have never heard of this "reputation".

I'm not saying this, nor do I agree, but I've been on numerous forums, ca, c aco, termpro, floridaspl, etc, and from time to time you see similar stuffin regards to being loud as fuck, but not necessarily sql. For instance, a shit load of bullet super tweeters, yes very fucking loud, sound good? ehh.

Either way, you can't judge a book by it's cover, AND I don't.

[Dutchie. 10]

I'm just gonna say for the most part M5 knows his stuff. He knows it really really well, he just has a different way of saying things. The comment about Florida was pretty messed up, but as he said it was an emotional post. I think a thread like this serves no purpose other than an "I told you so." I vote to leave this issue alone and move along in our lives. People say things, but as long as you are happy with your setup, don't let it bother you. And at that, I am out.

[ssh 924]

I'm just gonna say for the most part M5 knows his stuff. He knows it really really well, he just has a different way of saying things. The comment about Florida was pretty messed up, but as he said it was an emotional post. I think a thread like this serves no purpose other than an "I told you so." I vote to leave this issue alone and move along in our lives. People say things, but as long as you are happy with your setup, don't let it bother you. And at that, I am out.

I see what there saying. And I want to see Sean's response, and their response to his questions.

I think it all comes down to:

How did the box builders come up with the measurements, volumes, and tuning. And why? And what did they change / do to make it work better for the specific vehicle. M5 wants to know what was their reasoning for their math on the enclosure.

And they want to know how he can say it will have a very non linear response when he hasn't heard it, or doesn't know the vehicles cabin characteristics. And M5 would want to know what they did with their knowledge of the cabin characteristics, and how they used it to make the enclosure.

I'm I right everyone? Sound fair?

[Dutchie. 10]

I'm just gonna say for the most part M5 knows his stuff. He knows it really really well, he just has a different way of saying things. The comment about Florida was pretty messed up, but as he said it was an emotional post. I think a thread like this serves no purpose other than an "I told you so." I vote to leave this issue alone and move along in our lives. People say things, but as long as you are happy with your setup, don't let it bother you. And at that, I am out.

I see what there saying. And I want to see Sean's response, and their response to his questions.

I think it all comes down to:

How did the box builders come up with the measurements, volumes, and tuning. And why? And what did they change / do to make it work better for the specific vehicle. M5 wants to know what was their reasoning for their math on the enclosure.

And they want to know how he can say it will have a very non linear response when he hasn't heard it, or doesn't know the vehicles cabin characteristics. And M5 would want to know what they did with their knowledge of the cabin characteristics, and how they used it to make the enclosure.

I'm I right everyone? Sound fair?

Sounds fair to me.

[TRP 42]

Sounds like something that doesnt need to be blasted all over, as we have seen from the last several posts people get heated and emotional and say things that are not needed, or even related to the post. But that is just my thought on it, and i guess i could be wrong, we need another cat fight on here!! It is what SSA is all about!!

[TechSys 3]

O.k. It was pretty much implied, by M5 that if a discussion of the design wants to continue, that is fine. Nothing against SSA or Florida with this, but the only people that should be involved in this topic would be the owner of the system, the designer and builder of the system, M5, and possibly Skar Audio owner. No one else, including me, should be doing anything but reading the topic. This should keep all the emotions out of it and hopefully something may come out of the discussion that everybody can use in the future. This should also eliminate e-sucker punches. I want to see an actual discussion/debate on the topic, not the crap that the other topic(s) ended up having.

Can that be done?

[ssh 924]

O.k. It was pretty much implied, by M5 that if a discussion of the design wants to continue, that is fine. Nothing against SSA or Florida with this, but the only people that should be involved in this topic would be the owner of the system, the designer and builder of the system, M5, and possibly Skar Audio owner. No one else, including me, should be doing anything but reading the topic. This should keep all the emotions out of it and hopefully something may come out of the discussion that everybody can use in the future. This should also eliminate e-sucker punches. I want to see an actual discussion/debate on the topic, not the crap that the other topic(s) ended up having.

Can that be done?

Owner of the system is banned for trying to sell skars products on ssa forum, undercutting ssa all together. Has nothing to do with the debate or his build log.

But I agree with you.

So box designers and M5, have the floor.

I'm out.

[///M5 2,833]

Simple 4th order ported in that configuration is peaky and steep, cabin gain will fill in some but not enough to make it anywhere near the performance you'd get out of a different alignment.

That I shouldn't have to state as the designer should know that exactly and I'd venture the guess that he does. The real question is why each volume in the enclosure was chosen, why that port size, and why that alignment for those subs in that car. The designer had no more information than I did when he started the design, he decided he liked the peaky plot and that it gave him some benefit (or again Malibu misled him). The real question is why. Again it should be rather obvious why I don't agree with it and not sure why I have to state it over and over.

As for the comment on Florida. If you read it in context you wouldn't have taken it as me saying everyone in Florida is an idiot. That I didn't say. What I said was that the great majority of people that are misled and have wrong misconceptions that come to this forum are from Florida. This doesn't apply to the whole state, everyone that visits here, or Florida in general but it does apply to the sampling of questions that I've seen on this forum. 8 out of 10 may be high, but it is a majority. Just as a reference, here is BigBoi's quote of mine:

"Definitely the state that leads in that regard. All the idiots running as many bullet tweeters as mids, now that's LOL. Frequency response seems to be lost there in favor of one note wonders. 8 out of 10 people that come onto here with hair brained ideas are from Florida, pretty commonly known. Nothing in the water there, just a following of someone who knows not of what they do."

If those of you from Florida took that personally, perhaps you should question why.

[///M5 2,833]

So box designers and M5, have the floor.

Exactly why I re-opened the thread. Doesn't just have to be the designer, but it shouldn't be some emotional subjective response of "I heard it and it sounds great" as that means jack and shit. Again to put this in context. I never said it wouldn't be loud, I never said that the OP won't like it, I never stated his goals were stupid or that I wanted him to do what I'd do, instead I stated that based on his goals I would have used a different design. The drivers chosen in the alignment chosen for the space and power aren't the best end to what he was looking for and an improvement in SQ without a loss and potentially even a decent gain in SPL could be had by changing alignments.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

I am going to start a new campaign;

Maryland, the quietest state in the union.

[Alan Palmer 3]

i believe i can comment with minimal emotion.. so here goes.

first off, an explaination of me. im not a bullet tweeter type of guy.. i have a front stage many sq guys would be jealous of. havent gotten into signal processing, time alignment, etc, because thats just not my calling.. i like it loud. but im also born and raised in florida. im as florida as you're going to get. yes, we have some people that ride around with a plethora of bullets, and... horns... but thats they're game. its cheap, loud, and gets attention. just like big tires on a truck, or a fancy paint job on a car. everyone has their own quirks, and to call out florida as a whole and try to put us down, that cant happen... notice im not turning this around on you, simply asking you to be respectful and retract your statement. call out individuals if you feel the need.

now then. i honestly do see your point m5. you followed physics, and got the output. you stated that cabin, etc will change it slightly, but not enough to even it all out. you're partially correct. its not even.. it doesnt play a 155 across the board. we agree there. however.. i believe that if you had the chance to actually experience the car, and pick some music to listen to, and listen to different frequency ranges, you would be impressed, and change your mind.

on the physics part. physics theories are defeatable. thats why they are theories and not laws. im not saying they have been defeated in this instance, simply that they can be, and are consistently. i personally believe that this build has proven its self, and utilizes the entire spectrum of variables extremely well in the design. not just the physics, and wave lengths, but also the pressure, angles, and acoustics of the vehicle.

just for arguments sake, by the books, 3 decibels is an audible difference. im pretty certain that from 30-50 it maintains about a 3 db difference... if not close. so you can not tell an audible difference across the board on the frequencies. audible difference is the only difference that matters in the end. at least with this car. its a musical ground pounder.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

I have for the most part, stayed out of this conversation, except for when I had no choice. Anyway, there are two sides to this disagreement, the designers and builders are stuck in the middle.

One side, that favors the build from experience ideal, keeps saying 'just listen to it' and 'that car audio defies the laws of physics'. Now my question is, what laws of physics is car audio defying?

[///M5 2,833]

i believe i can comment with minimal emotion.. so here goes.

Thanks, I think you did that.

first off, an explaination of me. im not a bullet tweeter type of guy.. i have a front stage many sq guys would be jealous of. havent gotten into signal processing, time alignment, etc, because thats just not my calling.. i like it loud. but im also born and raised in florida. im as florida as you're going to get. yes, we have some people that ride around with a plethora of bullets, and... horns... but thats they're game. its cheap, loud, and gets attention. just like big tires on a truck, or a fancy paint job on a car. everyone has their own quirks, and to call out florida as a whole and try to put us down, that cant happen... notice im not turning this around on you, simply asking you to be respectful and retract your statement. call out individuals if you feel the need.

I didn't call out Florida as a whole, just said that the majority of hair brained ideas I see on this forum come from those in FL. Actually said 8 out of 10, which I admitted might be high but it is a rather biased amount. In no way was this meant to say that everyone in FL was an idiot or any other put down on the whole state. I also definitely referenced there are some really stupid ideas happening in mass in car audio in Florida, but you just agreed with that statement above. I have no respect for anyone who wants to be loud to garner attention and never will. If your manlihood is so small you have to go around being a pest to people and blaring music they think is shit, then you need your head re-adjusted. Now that being said if you want it loud as balls for you, by all means do it and I'd even be glad to help. The manlihood comment should only be taken personally if you are one of those that drive around and try to disturb others, otherwise, don't take it personally it isn't about you. Sorry this wasn't more clear in my post, but even re-reading it I don't see how it could misinterpreted.

now then. i honestly do see your point m5. you followed physics, and got the output. you stated that cabin, etc will change it slightly, but not enough to even it all out. you're partially correct. its not even.. it doesnt play a 155 across the board. we agree there. however.. i believe that if you had the chance to actually experience the car, and pick some music to listen to, and listen to different frequency ranges, you would be impressed, and change your mind.

You misunderstand what would impress me. Doing more with a different design and no other changes is the task at hand. Maximizing what you can do impresses me.

on the physics part. physics theories are defeatable. thats why they are theories and not laws. im not saying they have been defeated in this instance, simply that they can be, and are consistently. i personally believe that this build has proven its self, and utilizes the entire spectrum of variables extremely well in the design. not just the physics, and wave lengths, but also the pressure, angles, and acoustics of the vehicle.

Most definitely can theories be defeatable, but this is done empirically and at that point the theory becomes invalid. A theorem on the other hand is proven and while of course everyday scientists are finding new and different infomation, unless you can prove it wrong empirically it holds true.

If you remove the theory from your argument and just look at the rest of your sentence, "i personally believe that this build has proven its self, and utilizes the entire spectrum of variables extremely well in the design. not just the physics, and wave lengths, but also the pressure, angles, and acoustics of the vehicle." you give a subjective response. You believe, fine, but that does not disprove any theory. Now you bring up something I already brought up in the acoustics of the vehicle (which surely encompasses pressure, angles, wavelengths), which is exactly why I asked the questions I did.

So far at this point the designer and I have the same information. We have some info on the drivers and power available and need to make a box. He designs one and assumes it will sound great, I see the design and show why this is different. The box has a narrow response and another alignment with those same drivers in that same space would have a wider response and can keep the same peak. Then we both get to add cabin gain and change the plots again. He made some judgement that said that the enclosure volume would work well and that it would meet Malibu's goals. This will become very clear and easy if he just states why what volumes, port size, and the alignment was chosen.

And again, I'll list the possible driving force here. It is very possible that Malibu forced him down a path that made no sense. If this is indeed the case, as I said before I apologize to the designer. I already commended the build quality, but considering all you guys dwell only on what I highlighted as negative I'd like to point this out again. The installation and build of the design is stellar, great job of executing that part of the plan.

I'll await and expect the response of why what was chosen.

[Duran 387]

I am going to start a new campaign;

Maryland, the quietest state in the union.

That is all.

[pimpedout97x 4]

I didn't call out Florida as a whole, just said that the majority of hair brained ideas I see on this forum come from those in FL.

psht, like i've ever posted threads here about PA speakers in a car.

[///M5 2,833]

I didn't call out Florida as a whole, just said that the majority of hair brained ideas I see on this forum come from those in FL.

psht, like i've ever posted threads here about PA speakers in a car.

And I've never said never to use PA speakers in anyone's car, on the other hand I have specifically called out certain PA drivers as absurd.