Where to put subs? What would u do?

[cruzer23 1]

k ill read that 100 times if u read this once.

http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2440

[Gatorfooseball08 2]

If you are dead set on multiple 8" drivers or multiple drivers in general you are going to have to modify the truck in some way. So your really only limited by your fab skills, imagination, and how big your sack is.... Some ideas for you are cutting up the rear seat for a custom center console, doing custom boxes in the doors, moving the rear seats forward to give you some more space for a box behind the rear seats, my favorite would be a blow-through... but no matter what you choose, Godsmack is right SQ and Output is going to have more to do with your install then whatever driver you choose but good luck with your build this should be interesting.

[swift 501]

More output at a lower distortion would mean more cone area at a lower volume I would think.

Are you going to compete with this or not? If not this all seems way over thought

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Do any of u know what a SI MAG is, or the SHIVA-X, or an AE AV is? they are all 1000 watt rms subs that will sound better than an icon, or fi q. they will have lower distortion than either of those subs.

so if u wanna call it, i want loud with the lowest distortion possible, fine.

here is what i came up with to fit behind the center console, but the problem is, its only 8.5" from the back of the console, to the front of the back seat. now u take away 1.5" for 3/4 wood, how, oh how can i fit a 10" sub?

TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Distortion is not your problem, it's the person that is controling the volume knob that is the problem. If you take any driver on the market and keep it below xmax you will be below 10% distortion and you will not be able to tell what name brand driver it is, to a certain extent. Yes of course some will be cleaner at louder levels because they have a higher rated xmax, which by definition is 10% THD. You first need to decide how loud you want to get. Then choose what setup will fit that goal while under xmax ratings. Another thing you need to consider is your install skills. Anything is possible. Are you willing to modifiy the truck for bass?

Quoting as this applies to pretty much everyone.

[cruzer23 1]

should read the link i posted, here is part of it

"I hear all the time that it's all about putting the woofer in the right box. If it's put in the right box any woofer can sound good. While it is important to put the woofer in the right box, there are things that won't change no matter what box you have. You will always have non-linearities in the woofer that make it sound different at higher levels. As you put in power you get thermal distortion issues and the large distortion issues due to flux modulation. As the driver moves to high excursions you get variances in inductance and you get decreasing motor strength. If the woofer has not addressed these issues in the design stages, no enclosure is going to correct them. Attention should be paid to pulling heat from the coil quickly, lowering and linearizing inductance, providing a symmetrical BL curve, and lowering flux modulation. While the woofer needs to be in the right enclosure, a woofer that addresses all these issues and is put in the right enclosure will always be able to more accurately reproduce the signal input to it than a poorly designed woofer in the "right" enclosure. "

why is there too much thought into this? i didnt put much thought into sitting the subs on the back seat, and they fly around everywhere, hitting the seat, hitting the doors, thats not putting enough thought into it...

i wanted to do at least a single 10 ported, but i just cant figure it out. the box design i posted was going to net me around 1.1 cubic foot for a single 12 sealed, but no where does it open up enough to fit a 12" sub, only an 8.

@denim, send me a 10" icon and ill buy a 10" ae av from diyma and we will find out

whats the deal with keeping a sub under xmax? if u port a sub, ur supposed to use a SSF, its common knowledge. if u go sealed, 90% of the time u wont need a SSF, but its still safe to use one.

Who uses their subs over xmax? spl guys? those guys dont care about sq.

i emailed jacob about his sa-8s he said the only thing they got going for them sq wise is the hefty xmax. otherwise i would be better off waiting on his x-8. he didnt say the sa-8 would sound bad, nor do i think it would, but its not made for sq plain and simple

Edited February 15, 2011 by cruzer23

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

should read the link i posted, here is part of it

"I hear all the time that it's all about putting the woofer in the right box. If it's put in the right box any woofer can sound good. While it is important to put the woofer in the right box, there are things that won't change no matter what box you have. You will always have non-linearities in the woofer that make it sound different at higher levels. As you put in power you get thermal distortion issues and the large distortion issues due to flux modulation. As the driver moves to high excursions you get variances in inductance and you get decreasing motor strength. If the woofer has not addressed these issues in the design stages, no enclosure is going to correct them. Attention should be paid to pulling heat from the coil quickly, lowering and linearizing inductance, providing a symmetrical BL curve, and lowering flux modulation. While the woofer needs to be in the right enclosure, a woofer that addresses all these issues and is put in the right enclosure will always be able to more accurately reproduce the signal input to it than a poorly designed woofer in the "right" enclosure. "

why is there too much thought into this? i didnt put much thought into sitting the subs on the back seat, and they fly around everywhere, hitting the seat, hitting the doors, thats not putting enough thought into it...

i wanted to do at least a single 10 ported, but i just cant figure it out. the box design i posted was going to net me around 1.1 cubic foot for a single 12 sealed, but no where does it open up enough to fit a 12" sub, only an 8.

@denim, send me a 10" icon and ill buy a 10" ae av from diyma and we will find out

I would, but your POV is already filtered and it would clearly not be a 3rd party objective review. Not to mention the Icon's are out of stock. Exactly like I said to you in the multiple PM exchange on CA.com, where you were asking me to prove what we were doing special with the design of the Icon in terms of SQ, as stated above since so many modern drivers are linear low-distortion these days, so much of this is subjective, install dependent and environment effected. What is going to sound good in my install to my ears will be different to what sounds good in your install to your ears. And in the end, it is what the customers ears like, not a marketing strategy or different motor topology.

I can RTA the bejesus out of my car, but I know I don't like an RTA adjusted set up in my vehicle. I prefer a little more dynamic peaks and valleys in certain points of the freq range, because it is more pleasing to my ears.

[cruzer23 1]

lol im not scared to admit im wrong, i very well may be, but i have to have proof. i dont know a whole lot about car audio, i still have tons and tons to learn. i just read what i have and it makes sense to me in my opinion.

guess ill just do the 8s console, try some sundown 8s then if i dont like them go for something more sq oriented, or vise versa

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

I am not trying to prove you wrong, just trying to state there are so many factors that go into it. To be honest, I have grown quite weary of people and the "Lowest inductance is King in SQ" or the "XBL2 >* " mantras that continue to keep getting pushed. Both are great aspects/features to a driver, but this mindset of if a driver does not have one or the other, it sucks in terms of sound quality, is just silly at this point in my POV. It is the almost arrogant scoff of people who think they are ELEET SQ, who usually are like that. Cruzer, I am not saying that is you at all, just clarifying my statement. I am not an expert, but I have been around long enough and heard enough drivers in plenty of installs. I wish Quentin luck with his new line of speakers.

[Ohjay 116]

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=299-094 I think this is perfect for ya

[Impious 1,476]

You can not school me on xbl^2 technology. Look at my forum, I am working with ADI at the moment building several lines. If you can expand my knowledge of xbl technology more than the man who invented it, the same person I have been working with over the past two years, be my guest.

The point I was making is if you keep whatever sub you buy BELOW XMAX which is defined by 10 percent total harmonic distortion you will not have distortion. Does this mean sub A will be as loud as sub B. NO. But they will have the same amount of distortion or lack there of because that is what XMAX means.

Keep in mind there is more to it than THD. A shift in Bl and/or Cms will also affect the parameters of the driver, which will in turn affect the response of the driver. Some people consider a linear design that decreases the parameter shift more important in subwoofers than the distortion lowering mechanisms involved as we are less sensitive to distortion in this bandwidth. A properly handled inductance is likewise important for reasons other than distortion, as an improperly treated inductance can likewise affect or limit response within the intended/necessary bandwidth.

I'm sure you already know all of this, and probably more than myself in regards to driver design. There's much more to the discussion but that really isn't pertinent. My simple point is that I think it's wrong to focus the discussion solely in terms of THD.

That said it doesn't necessarily take an "exotic" motor design to achieve these goals. For example, companies such as Peerless and Scanspeak have consistently built high performance drivers without much in the way of "exotic" motor designs. A well executed standard motor topology can be designed to be more than sufficient at supporting a high performance loudspeaker.

[cruzer23 1]

You can not school me on xbl^2 technology. Look at my forum, I am working with ADI at the moment building several lines. If you can expand my knowledge of xbl technology more than the man who invented it, the same person I have been working with over the past two years, be my guest.

The point I was making is if you keep whatever sub you buy BELOW XMAX which is defined by 10 percent total harmonic distortion you will not have distortion. Does this mean sub A will be as loud as sub B. NO. But they will have the same amount of distortion or lack there of because that is what XMAX means.

Keep in mind there is more to it than THD. A shift in Bl and/or Cms will also affect the parameters of the driver, which will in turn affect the response of the driver. Some people consider a linear design that decreases the parameter shift more important in subwoofers than the distortion lowering mechanisms involved as we are less sensitive to distortion in this bandwidth. A properly handled inductance is likewise important for reasons other than distortion, as an improperly treated inductance can likewise affect or limit response within the intended/necessary bandwidth.

I'm sure you already know all of this, and probably more than myself in regards to driver design. There's much more to the discussion but that really isn't pertinent. My simple point is that I think it's wrong to focus the discussion solely in terms of THD.

That said it doesn't necessarily take an "exotic" motor design to achieve these goals. For example, companies such as Peerless and Scanspeak have consistently built high performance drivers without much in the way of "exotic" motor designs. A well executed standard motor topology can be designed to be more than sufficient at supporting a high performance loudspeaker.

And while peerless makes great subs and all, its still proven that they are not as well designed as a sub featuring a flat bl curve. However, they do use shorting rings, and pole extenders to lower and linearize inductance. Where are these designs in subs that claim to be SQ like the FI Q? They are non existent. Yet 90% of any car audio forum will sit there and defend it and say its a GREAT SQ sub. While it does sound solid, it lacks anything special enough to be considered a SQ sub imho.

i took more measurements and if im going to fit two 8" subs its going to have to be mounted at the back, just in front of the rear seat as thats 9" wide. between the driver and passenger seat where the actual console is, its only 8", minus 1.5" for wood, and it just wont happen. ill upload pics in a minute

Edited February 16, 2011 by cruzer23

[ssh 924]

You can not school me on xbl^2 technology. Look at my forum, I am working with ADI at the moment building several lines. If you can expand my knowledge of xbl technology more than the man who invented it, the same person I have been working with over the past two years, be my guest.

The point I was making is if you keep whatever sub you buy BELOW XMAX which is defined by 10 percent total harmonic distortion you will not have distortion. Does this mean sub A will be as loud as sub B. NO. But they will have the same amount of distortion or lack there of because that is what XMAX means.

Keep in mind there is more to it than THD. A shift in Bl and/or Cms will also affect the parameters of the driver, which will in turn affect the response of the driver. Some people consider a linear design that decreases the parameter shift more important in subwoofers than the distortion lowering mechanisms involved as we are less sensitive to distortion in this bandwidth. A properly handled inductance is likewise important for reasons other than distortion, as an improperly treated inductance can likewise affect or limit response within the intended/necessary bandwidth.

I'm sure you already know all of this, and probably more than myself in regards to driver design. There's much more to the discussion but that really isn't pertinent. My simple point is that I think it's wrong to focus the discussion solely in terms of THD.

That said it doesn't necessarily take an "exotic" motor design to achieve these goals. For example, companies such as Peerless and Scanspeak have consistently built high performance drivers without much in the way of "exotic" motor designs. A well executed standard motor topology can be designed to be more than sufficient at supporting a high performance loudspeaker.

And while peerless makes great subs and all, its still proven that they are not as well designed as a sub featuring a flat bl curve. However, they do use shorting rings, and pole extenders to lower and linearize inductance. Where are these designs in subs that claim to be SQ like the FI Q? They are non existent. Yet 90% of any car audio forum will sit there and defend it and say its a GREAT SQ sub. While it does sound solid, it lacks anything special enough to be considered a SQ sub imho.

Each to their own, honestly it sounds like you know everything already and don't need our opinions for your sub choice.

[bassahaulic 155]

Each to their own, honestly it sounds like you know everything already and don't need our opinions for your sub choice.

Kaboom.

[Duran 387]

You can not school me on xbl^2 technology. Look at my forum, I am working with ADI at the moment building several lines. If you can expand my knowledge of xbl technology more than the man who invented it, the same person I have been working with over the past two years, be my guest.

The point I was making is if you keep whatever sub you buy BELOW XMAX which is defined by 10 percent total harmonic distortion you will not have distortion. Does this mean sub A will be as loud as sub B. NO. But they will have the same amount of distortion or lack there of because that is what XMAX means.

Keep in mind there is more to it than THD. A shift in Bl and/or Cms will also affect the parameters of the driver, which will in turn affect the response of the driver. Some people consider a linear design that decreases the parameter shift more important in subwoofers than the distortion lowering mechanisms involved as we are less sensitive to distortion in this bandwidth. A properly handled inductance is likewise important for reasons other than distortion, as an improperly treated inductance can likewise affect or limit response within the intended/necessary bandwidth.

I'm sure you already know all of this, and probably more than myself in regards to driver design. There's much more to the discussion but that really isn't pertinent. My simple point is that I think it's wrong to focus the discussion solely in terms of THD.

That said it doesn't necessarily take an "exotic" motor design to achieve these goals. For example, companies such as Peerless and Scanspeak have consistently built high performance drivers without much in the way of "exotic" motor designs. A well executed standard motor topology can be designed to be more than sufficient at supporting a high performance loudspeaker.

And while peerless makes great subs and all, its still proven that they are not as well designed as a sub featuring a flat bl curve. However, they do use shorting rings, and pole extenders to lower and linearize inductance. Where are these designs in subs that claim to be SQ like the FI Q? They are non existent. Yet 90% of any car audio forum will sit there and defend it and say its a GREAT SQ sub. While it does sound solid, it lacks anything special enough to be considered a SQ sub imho.

i took more measurements and if im going to fit two 8" subs its going to have to be mounted at the back, just in front of the rear seat as thats 9" wide. between the driver and passenger seat where the actual console is, its only 8", minus 1.5" for wood, and it just wont happen. ill upload pics in a minute

You can get an inductance ring on the Q, FYI.

The logical thing to do is either use .5" MDF, or to fiberglass.

[cruzer23 1]

stupid truck

[Impious 1,476]

And while peerless makes great subs and all, its still proven that they are not as well designed as a sub featuring a flat bl curve.

What? Proven how? Where? Let's look......

Here's the BL curve of a Peerless 12" XXLS. Well centered with a smooth, relatively symmetric and flat roll off at both ends:

Peerless XXLS

BL curve of the Peerless SLS 8" driver. Again, well centered with a smooth and symmetrical roll off at both ends:

Peerless SLS8

Here's the BL curve of a CSS Trio8 with XBL^2. Coil appears offset about 3mm forward rather than being properly centered (one of the problems with these "exotic" motor designs is manufacturing consistency) and not as symmetric:

Trio8 BL Curve

BL curve of Adire Extremis with XBL^2. Ripple in the curve, not as symmetric, and again would appear off centered:

Adire Extremis

Adire's DUMAX of the 12" Brahma. Same results as above:

Adire Brahma Dumax

Please, explain to me the deficiencies of the two Peerless motor design in comparison to any of the three XBL^2 motors. Where are they? Because I'm not seeing them. And, for reference, there is nothing particularly special about the Lamda motor you were referencing earlier as far as "exotic" linear BL motor designs go. It's nothing more than a well executed standard motor topology AFAIK.

And for reference, I run a Shiva-X as my subwoofer in my vehicle and have a pair of Trio8's waiting to be installed this spring/summer as my midbass. I also have six Exodus Anarchy's with XBL motors I plan to use in my HT, and when the 8" Anarchy's hit the market I'd like to grab a pair or three of those. I'm definitely not against XBL^2. But there is certainly more than one way to skin a cat, and more than one way to design a driver with a linear, well executed motor.

Lastly, keep in mind when you listen to a subwoofer you are listening to more than just the subwoofer. You are listening to the subwoofer in particular enclosure in a particular vehicle with specific system settings. You might have listened to a subwoofer in a friends (or strangers) car. You might not have liked the sound of the subbass. But was it actually the driver you were listening to? No, it's not. You were listening to the entire system, which includes the affect of the enclosure on the response of the driver, the affects of the environment, as well as the affects any particular system setting(s). You can't properly evaluate the subwoofer itself under such conditions, as you are listening to far more than the subwoofer itself.

I'm not telling you that a Fi Q is a great sounding driver....I've never listened to one. I'm not telling you that a Fi Q (or similar) is the driver for you....it very well may not be. But you don't seem to fully comprehend the entire picture, either from a driver design perspective or from a system response perspective.

[cruzer23 1]

it was in 2008, the thread that i read. not sure with the xxls came out, but they were comparing the xbl2, lambada, and xls motors. xls was good, but wasnt excellent like the other two and featured over double the inductance, features less xmax, less power handling, etc. etc.

no one is saying its bad, but its not that good compared to others. ill take the peerless xls or xxls just because it has a flat bl curve which gets rid of 70% of distortion alone, more than say the FI Q does...