Power for the 3500D

[BigBodyLexus 3]

Okay since I'm so close to putting my new system together for the 2011 MWSPL season I have this question. My electrical will consist of a 180 amp DC Power Alternator, a CarQuest NGT Extreme 100 Ah AGM battery under the hood and a Deka 9A31 in the trunk, will this be enough to power a SAZ-3500D? I've heard yes and no. Of course I know to watch my voltage but I've had a few people tell me to get at least 2 batts for the trunk (if I had the space) it's going in the back of a 01 Camry.

[CrazyKenKid 64]

well 3500 watts on 12volts = nearly 300amp to power that amp at full tilt!

your alt is 180amps and your two batteries have a combined ah of 200ah?

I think you will be fine! just roll with it!

remember rule of thumb if there is 200amps of fusing on the amp you need at least 100AH!

[BigBodyLexus 3]

I heard Kyle from DC Power was running a SAZ-3500D with a 180 amp alternator

[CrazyKenKid 64]

I don't know who kyle is but just because someone else can doesn't mean everyone can!

kyle might has more batteries kyle might have bigger batteries kyle might be running 2 alts!

remember kyle is kyel and you are you! just because i am running 5krms to a single 15inch NS v1 doesn't mean everyone else can! lol

[jcarter1885 995]

Honestly that is going to depend on your goals and considering your gonna be competing your gonna wait more power than a daily system would. I think that would be fine for daily but competing I dont think so but that is all install dependent and what your trying to achieve.

The best way to tell is to install it and see if you need more power when your going all in or not.

[BigBodyLexus 3]

I don't know who kyle is but just because someone else can doesn't mean everyone can!

kyle might has more batteries kyle might have bigger batteries kyle might be running 2 alts!

remember kyle is kyel and you are you! just because i am running 5krms to a single 15inch NS v1 doesn't mean everyone else can! lol

He's a rep for DC Power, he was in a 97-01 Camry (same body style as mine, dual alts aren't an option) I think maybe he was running 1 battery, I realize the differences within this realm, The reality is honestly I could run a 4500D off of my stock alternator and no extra batteries, would I get optimum performance from the amp? absolutely not. Let me simplify my question: if I use the above mentioned equipment in my electrical what kind of power can I expect from the 3500D? The class I'll be running in clamps at 2K, I just want to make sure that I am not severely underpowering this amp

[slim2fattycake 85]

Honestly that is going to depend on your goals and considering your gonna be competing your gonna wait more power than a daily system would. I think that would be fine for daily but competing I dont think so but that is all install dependent and what your trying to achieve.

The best way to tell is to install it and see if you need more power when your going all in or not.

I don't know why people freak out and buy a shit load of batteries before they even see if there is a problem.

[CrazyKenKid 64]

I think it will be enough remember that is 3500rms at 1ohm

for a burp have you factored in an impedance rise?

for example when i burped my single 15inch sub on 5krms the impedance was riseing to about 5ohms so my sub was only actually seeing about 2600rms when i was burping at 40hz now if i wired my sub lower the impedance would have went down and when i burped at 40hz the ppower getting to the sub would also increase and most likey raise my db score! or murder the sub! lol

so first why don't you install the above equipment get a clamp meter and then do a few burps and find out what your impedance rise/fall is then decide from there if you need more batteries or bigger alt or...or whatever

like people say install it all and see if it works well or not but my opinion is what you got wil work out and I think you will be happy with it!

but jsut give it a try and report back! remember this is a burp maybe 10sec just enough to get a good reading! and get a few friends to help you with this or a meter that will HOLD the highest number!

[alt29040 1]

I have my 3500 @.5 daily with no issues, dimming or hardly any voltage drop. 200a alt xs d3400 under hood and 1 d3100 in back. on 4 15's it is giving me plenty of power. I am quite impressed honestly. just a 1/4 gain, no boost and it is pretty violent at higher levels. try it and see. I thought i would've had to at least have another 3100 in back but now i don't see where i need it.

[Kanaworm$ 292]

Test it and monitor your voltage. If you see major voltage drops then add another batt. But what you have should be enough.

[ford302redneck 15]

I've never understood, when people say when your seeing voltage drop add a battery.

Let's start by saying, voltage drop is when your alternator is at say 14.5volts and drops to say 12.5 volts, that's because all the current it is producing is used.

Now adding a battery isn't going to help your alternator produce anymore current, so therefore still going to drop to 12.5 volts.

Only way to stop voltage drop is produce more current, and the alternator will still have current to charge.

A battery stores energy, it doesn't produce it. Why doesn't people understand this.

To the OP, install the amp, then decided if you need anything else. As long as your not draining your batteries with everything your running. Your fine.

[ibanender 2]

I've never understood, when people say when your seeing voltage drop add a battery.

Let's start by saying, voltage drop is when your alternator is at say 14.5volts and drops to say 12.5 volts, that's because all the current it is producing is used.

Now adding a battery isn't going to help your alternator produce anymore current, so therefore still going to drop to 12.5 volts.

Only way to stop voltage drop is produce more current, and the alternator will still have current to charge.

A battery stores energy, it doesn't produce it. Why doesn't people understand this.

To the OP, install the amp, then decided if you need anything else. As long as your not draining your batteries with everything your running. Your fine.

You get partial credit. While your drop may have been 12.5 before, adding a battery may only drop to 13.0. Likely it won't be higher than float voltage on the batteries, whatever that number may be. However, where adding batteries DOES help is if you're dropping much lower. Say you were dropping to 11v, adding a battery may make your drop 12.6v. If you're doing something like Bass Race or Bass Boxing, you need storage to help maintain voltage. In my case, better batteries offer a more consistent testing session for burps. I dont have to charge as frequently and I can test burp after burp with little change.

[ford302redneck 15]

Right, I didn't go into 100% detail on the whole topic. Figured it wasn't needed until somebody had something smart to say.

But you explained the rest.

[DC Power Rob 4]

I've never understood, when people say when your seeing voltage drop add a battery.

Let's start by saying, voltage drop is when your alternator is at say 14.5volts and drops to say 12.5 volts, that's because all the current it is producing is used.

Now adding a battery isn't going to help your alternator produce anymore current, so therefore still going to drop to 12.5 volts.

Only way to stop voltage drop is produce more current, and the alternator will still have current to charge.

A battery stores energy, it doesn't produce it. Why doesn't people understand this.

To the OP, install the amp, then decided if you need anything else. As long as your not draining your batteries with everything your running. Your fine.

VERY well put!!

Now, for this particular question we have done a lot of testing so we have a good bit of experience.. That said, a 180 amp alternator in this car is going to give him about 120 "usable" amps over what he normally has, and with a couple of "good" batteries he should have plenty of adequate power under normal circumstances. The main thing to consider with a big amp like the 3500, is how is it going to be used. Is it in a daily driver that just bumps alot driving around, or is a comp vehicle. Kyles 3500 never pulled more than about ~100 amps at .5 on music at say 3/4 volume. On tones at .5 at high volumes, it may touch 180 BRIEFLY. In hours of testing, we NEVER saw over 200 AFTER we put a 270XP with a 15.1v regulator in it no matter how hard we pounded on it.

Remember, music is dynamic and even though you may have a 3500W "RMS" amp, your dynamic load of the amp will almost NEVER exceed 70% of its rated power. If you calculate it to the letter for power consumption, 3500/15 15= 233 amps. 233/.8 (effiency) = 290 amp max power input required to make an actual 3500w of output power. Now, take 290*.6 (dynamic avg MAX current requirement on music) 174 Amps, which is the absolute MAX necessary for 3500 actual produced watts, which you will only see MAYBE 25% of the time.

Will a bigger alt power it better, absolutely, no question about it. Will a 180 amp alt power it ok 90% of the time, no question...

[ibanender 2]

I've never understood, when people say when your seeing voltage drop add a battery.

Let's start by saying, voltage drop is when your alternator is at say 14.5volts and drops to say 12.5 volts, that's because all the current it is producing is used.

Now adding a battery isn't going to help your alternator produce anymore current, so therefore still going to drop to 12.5 volts.

Only way to stop voltage drop is produce more current, and the alternator will still have current to charge.

A battery stores energy, it doesn't produce it. Why doesn't people understand this.

To the OP, install the amp, then decided if you need anything else. As long as your not draining your batteries with everything your running. Your fine.

VERY well put!!

Now, for this particular question we have done a lot of testing so we have a good bit of experience.. That said, a 180 amp alternator in this car is going to give him about 120 "usable" amps over what he normally has, and with a couple of "good" batteries he should have plenty of adequate power under normal circumstances. The main thing to consider with a big amp like the 3500, is how is it going to be used. Is it in a daily driver that just bumps alot driving around, or is a comp vehicle. Kyles 3500 never pulled more than about ~100 amps at .5 on music at say 3/4 volume. On tones at .5 at high volumes, it may touch 180 BRIEFLY. In hours of testing, we NEVER saw over 200 AFTER we put a 270XP with a 15.1v regulator in it no matter how hard we pounded on it.

Remember, music is dynamic and even though you may have a 3500W "RMS" amp, your dynamic load of the amp will almost NEVER exceed 70% of its rated power. If you calculate it to the letter for power consumption, 3500/15 15= 233 amps. 233/.8 (effiency) = 290 amp max power input required to make an actual 3500w of output power. Now, take 290*.6 (dynamic avg MAX current requirement on music) 174 Amps, which is the absolute MAX necessary for 3500 actual produced watts, which you will only see MAYBE 25% of the time.

Will a bigger alt power it better, absolutely, no question about it. Will a 180 amp alt power it ok 90% of the time, no question...

I sorta agree with this, but not completely. Here's why: An SAZ-3500d is rated for 3500 watts. Does that mean it does 3500 watts? No. In actuality, you can get as much as 5400 clamped watts out of one under some conditions. There are conditions in a daily situation you can even get over 4000, and that DOES change your current draw by quite a bit. The same can go the other way. In the case of a Brutus 1600 watt RMS rated amp, the most we could actually get out of it was 954 watts. Above all that, you have to consider individual amp efficiency. Even if you're clamping 4000 watts between 3 different amps, current draw can vary quite a bit.

Moral of the story, you're back to put equipment in and deal with it as needed.

[DC Power Rob 4]

I sorta agree with this, but not completely. Here's why: An SAZ-3500d is rated for 3500 watts. Does that mean it does 3500 watts? No. In actuality, you can get as much as 5400 clamped watts out of one under some conditions. There are conditions in a daily situation you can even get over 4000, and that DOES change your current draw by quite a bit. The same can go the other way. In the case of a Brutus 1600 watt RMS rated amp, the most we could actually get out of it was 954 watts. Above all that, you have to consider individual amp efficiency. Even if you're clamping 4000 watts between 3 different amps, current draw can vary quite a bit.

Moral of the story, you're back to put equipment in and deal with it as needed.

You are also correct, under some circumstances any amp is capable of making more than it's rated power, especially these amps. I was just trying to draw a comparison about relative power requirements. IF you can keep a 3500 supplied with enough current at say 15v at .5 ohm, your input power requirements are most definitely going to be higher.. The formula that I gave as an example still holds true though, you just have to change the calculations to reflect the higher output power of the amp.

[BigBodyLexus 3]

Well what is this 270XP they speak of?

[tyoung515 7]

Well what is this 270XP they speak of?

Chris russ runs one and loves it, hair pin stator design. Pretty much BA alt. Great thread btw! Very informative.

[Sencheezy 689]

Well what is this 270XP they speak of?

Chris russ runs one and loves it, hair pin stator design. Pretty much BA alt. Great thread btw! Very informative.

x's 2!!

[tijae 0]

i would add another batt to be on safe side

[holley2346 6]

I've never understood, when people say when your seeing voltage drop add a battery.

Let's start by saying, voltage drop is when your alternator is at say 14.5volts and drops to say 12.5 volts, that's because all the current it is producing is used.

Now adding a battery isn't going to help your alternator produce anymore current, so therefore still going to drop to 12.5 volts.

Only way to stop voltage drop is produce more current, and the alternator will still have current to charge.

A battery stores energy, it doesn't produce it. Why doesn't people understand this.

To the OP, install the amp, then decided if you need anything else. As long as your not draining your batteries with everything your running. Your fine.

VERY well put!!

Now, for this particular question we have done a lot of testing so we have a good bit of experience.. That said, a 180 amp alternator in this car is going to give him about 120 "usable" amps over what he normally has, and with a couple of "good" batteries he should have plenty of adequate power under normal circumstances. The main thing to consider with a big amp like the 3500, is how is it going to be used. Is it in a daily driver that just bumps alot driving around, or is a comp vehicle. Kyles 3500 never pulled more than about ~100 amps at .5 on music at say 3/4 volume. On tones at .5 at high volumes, it may touch 180 BRIEFLY. In hours of testing, we NEVER saw over 200 AFTER we put a 270XP with a 15.1v regulator in it no matter how hard we pounded on it.

Remember, music is dynamic and even though you may have a 3500W "RMS" amp, your dynamic load of the amp will almost NEVER exceed 70% of its rated power. If you calculate it to the letter for power consumption, 3500/15 15= 233 amps. 233/.8 (effiency) = 290 amp max power input required to make an actual 3500w of output power. Now, take 290*.6 (dynamic avg MAX current requirement on music) 174 Amps, which is the absolute MAX necessary for 3500 actual produced watts, which you will only see MAYBE 25% of the time.

Will a bigger alt power it better, absolutely, no question about it. Will a 180 amp alt power it ok 90% of the time, no question...

I'm trying to make sense of these numbers... I blew a 350 amp fuse with a 3000D at .5, at full tilt with 4 yellow tops the power wire from my alt was clamped putting out 170 amps of current and I still had voltage drop into the 11's on the amp inputs.... not doubting, just seeking information

[DC Power Rob 4]

Well what is this 270XP they speak of?

270XP's are the brutes that we build, built specifically for max output at idle. They are the smallest, lightest, and pound for pound the highest output alternator you can get.. In simple terms, for your car, you just cant get better. What every high output alternator should be..

I'm trying to make sense of these numbers... I blew a 350 amp fuse with a 3000D at .5, at full tilt with 4 yellow tops the power wire from my alt was clamped putting out 170 amps of current and I still had voltage drop into the 11's on the amp inputs.... not doubting, just seeking information..

Ok.. Using round numbers, X wattage consumption, at Y voltage = Z current draw. If wattage is constant, the higher the voltage, the lower current required, the lower the voltage the higher current required. Pure physics, Ohm's law, just not something you can get around..

I don't know exact top end numbers for the 3500, but assume it's 4500 watts.. At it's MAX output power of 4500w, at 14v, you need ~320 amps at 100% efficiency, at 80% efficiency (class D amp mean efficiency), you need right at 400 amps of input power to make 4500w (4.5kW) But, iirc with these amps, they wont make anywhere near 4500w at 11v (correct me if I'm wrong) But, lets just say that it does for this example.. At 4500 w and 11v input voltage, you now need about 525 amps to make 4500w. And thats assuming everything else is perfect.. My experience with big amps like a 3500, in REAL world use/daily driving systems is that on average, at average listening volumes, the amp is only running at 75%, and due to the dynamic nature of music, of that, you only average 60% duty cycle of that 75%. So, if you take your 4500w, at 14v, on music, on average, the most current draw you will see will be around 180 amps, PEAK. You may hit higher depending on music, but its only for split seconds here and there. You also have to remember that different frequencies of music make amps do TOTALLY different things power consumption wise. (I used to go through this with snow plow people all the time, they just couldn't understand why they SMOKE their lift motors at 8v) But, that's why people SMOKE AMPS. Lower voltage=higherCurrent=MORE HEAT, I cant remember the exact physics equation and at what square heat increases with current consumption, but, below a certain voltage point it is absolutely ridiculous how much hotter things run at low voltage.

I could make really, really good video of exactly what I'm talking about it if I had a truck local with a 3500 that I could throw a dual kit and a 390XP on and isolate the alternator to a battery in the back. Take something off bass mechanic, get 4 fluke meters and measure the output voltage and current of the alternator, and the output voltage and current of the amp and watch what happens. What you would see would be exactly what I am talking about, 60% of the time you'd be at 75% of the amps capacity, with the other 40% split over or under that 75% mark. What else you will see, is the alternator will be going from 20-350 amps and back to 20, and all the while it will be running 80º cooler than the stock alternator making 100 amps continuous. On some music, sure, you may get the amp to it's peak, but it's for 1/10 of a second every 4 seconds, it's NOT 80% of the time.

TL:DR The whole point in this is that most people never run their amps hard enough to get them anywhere near their peaks for very long, therefore they dont need as big a charging system as they think.

[lee 2]

I've never understood, when people say when your seeing voltage drop add a battery.

Let's start by saying, voltage drop is when your alternator is at say 14.5volts and drops to say 12.5 volts, that's because all the current it is producing is used.

Now adding a battery isn't going to help your alternator produce anymore current, so therefore still going to drop to 12.5 volts.

Only way to stop voltage drop is produce more current, and the alternator will still have current to charge.

A battery stores energy, it doesn't produce it. Why doesn't people understand this.

To the OP, install the amp, then decided if you need anything else. As long as your not draining your batteries with everything your running. Your fine.

VERY well put!!

Now, for this particular question we have done a lot of testing so we have a good bit of experience.. That said, a 180 amp alternator in this car is going to give him about 120 "usable" amps over what he normally has, and with a couple of "good" batteries he should have plenty of adequate power under normal circumstances. The main thing to consider with a big amp like the 3500, is how is it going to be used. Is it in a daily driver that just bumps alot driving around, or is a comp vehicle. Kyles 3500 never pulled more than about ~100 amps at .5 on music at say 3/4 volume. On tones at .5 at high volumes, it may touch 180 BRIEFLY. In hours of testing, we NEVER saw over 200 AFTER we put a 270XP with a 15.1v regulator in it no matter how hard we pounded on it.

Remember, music is dynamic and even though you may have a 3500W "RMS" amp, your dynamic load of the amp will almost NEVER exceed 70% of its rated power. If you calculate it to the letter for power consumption, 3500/15 15= 233 amps. 233/.8 (effiency) = 290 amp max power input required to make an actual 3500w of output power. Now, take 290*.6 (dynamic avg MAX current requirement on music) 174 Amps, which is the absolute MAX necessary for 3500 actual produced watts, which you will only see MAYBE 25% of the time.

Will a bigger alt power it better, absolutely, no question about it. Will a 180 amp alt power it ok 90% of the time, no question...

I'm trying to make sense of these numbers... I blew a 350 amp fuse with a 3000D at .5, at full tilt with 4 yellow tops the power wire from my alt was clamped putting out 170 amps of current and I still had voltage drop into the 11's on the amp inputs.... not doubting, just seeking information

crazy...i ran a 200amp fuse with the same amp and nominal load AND voltage, and never blew the fuse{never have}. that was on a 75 amp stock alt and one 100ah batt awhile back. i now have an h/o alt and 2 of the batts and dont go lower then 12s now, still on that same fuse haha

[RAM_Designs 25]

If your class only allows 2kw clamped, then you should be fine.

[tyoung515 7]

3500 "can" do 43-4500 @ 10.5-11v. You just have to wire at .25, i've done this a few times with good results but don't expect a warranty if you pop an amp lol. There are also a few modded 3500s around that at .5 will do 4400ish @ 12v which if ken got arik's amp it is ******* but rob is right about dynamic power 100% these are burp numbers and you cannot clamp an amp playing music. I ran 2 3500s on my 300 amp and only dropped to 13.5ish at full tilt, but i have 2 3100s and 2 6500s in back also, 2 2500s does not drop below 14.

Edited January 24, 2011 by tyoung515