Arc Audio 4050XXK and 2050XXK

[valladon 4]

Just finished some power testing on the Arc Audio amps that I did a review of, there posting on my site n2caraudio.com. If anyone is interested.

[kirill007 52]

Maybe a link would be handy.

[///M5 2,833]

Just finished some power testing on the Arc Audio amps that I did a review of, there posting on my site n2caraudio.com. If anyone is interested.

Interested in what you used for a consistent load as well as how you measured the current and distortion.

[///M5 2,833]

These amps put out more than rated power.

Your tests are bogus. Great amps, but that statement is not backed up by ANY science.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Very nice amps for sure. Where is the SSAudio.com in the picture?

[valladon 4]

Very nice amps for sure. Where is the SSAudio.com in the picture?

I must have got this pics mixed up. I will fix it later today.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Very nice amps for sure. Where is the SSAudio.com in the picture?

I must have got this pics mixed up. I will fix it later today.

It's ok, just messing with you. GLWS.

[valladon 4]

These amps put out more than rated power.

Your tests are bogus. Great amps, but that statement is not backed up by ANY science.

wattage = voltage squared divided by resistance.

where is the error there? Its ohms law, not mine.

[valladon 4]

Very nice amps for sure. Where is the SSAudio.com in the picture?

I must have got this pics mixed up. I will fix it later today.

It's ok, just messing with you. GLWS.

thanks denim

[///M5 2,833]

These amps put out more than rated power.

Your tests are bogus. Great amps, but that statement is not backed up by ANY science.

wattage = voltage squared divided by resistance.

where is the error there? Its ohms law, not mine.

Science requires more than an equation but a methodology that is repeatable, reproducible, and accurate. From all I can tell you didn't use a calibrated load, you didn't measure distortion (so therefore the value you measured is arbitrary), and you probably don't even have an accurate way of measuring either voltage or current. For sure, it isn't accurate enough to report the digits you reported. So indeed, there is absolutely no science behind your statement.

Not knocking the amps, nor did this have to happen in your for sale thread but you failed to respond in your review thread so I have no choice. Sure looks like your review was just a mechanism to sell your amps by inflating their worth by misrepresenting their power. Really not necessary since they are great amps.

[valladon 4]

These amps put out more than rated power.

Your tests are bogus. Great amps, but that statement is not backed up by ANY science.

wattage = voltage squared divided by resistance.

where is the error there? Its ohms law, not mine.

Science requires more than an equation but a methodology that is repeatable, reproducible, and accurate. From all I can tell you didn't use a calibrated load, you didn't measure distortion (so therefore the value you measured is arbitrary), and you probably don't even have an accurate way of measuring either voltage or current. For sure, it isn't accurate enough to report the digits you reported. So indeed, there is absolutely no science behind your statement.

Not knocking the amps, nor did this have to happen in your for sale thread but you failed to respond in your review thread so I have no choice. Sure looks like your review was just a mechanism to sell your amps by inflating their worth by misrepresenting their power. Really not necessary since they are great amps.

I do appreciate the criticism, but I did list the parameters in which I took the measurements. I decided not to use a dummy load, because I wanted to see what real world power was coming out of these amps so I used a reactive load (subwoofer) with a electricial DC of 3.5 ohms at rest. Its true I didnt use a distortion analyzer (I mentioned this in the review) I took measurement by driving the speaker to distortion and backing it off till their was no audible distortion. (also what I believe to be "real world" testing)

I do like your idea of driving up the value of the amps though. And if I werent selling them cheaper here then I could get for them on ebay, I would say that thats true. But my real motivation in all this is to buy and sell equipment quickly so I can do more reivews. And hopefully drive more people to my website.

I would have responded to you in the review thead, but I forgot to subscribe to it and didnt see you reply till you mentioned it. But I have no problem with you bringing it up here in the sale thread.

[///M5 2,833]

No "audible" distortion is WAY over what the power specifications of the amplifier are set at which is exactly why they may or may not be under rated. You do see how big a flaw that is right? You cite 0.07% above for distortion and then its rated power. Obviously if you cranked that up to 5% the power numbers will scream upwards as well so then it becomes what is audible to you...

If your goal is to do testing and promote your site you really should do it in a way that is at least is scientific and something you can defend. I also think that the argument for using a speaker as a load is a crock. Sure it is real world for the setup that YOU have, but not for anyone else. It will also bias the test results once you start to mix it up with other amplifiers. And please stop citing numbers a digits that are WAY beyond the uncertainty in your measurement devices. There is a reason that in rudimentary Physics one of the first things they teach you is about significant digits.

[valladon 4]

Maybe a link would be handy.

Just finished some power testing on the Arc Audio amps that I did a review of, there posting on my site n2caraudio.com. If anyone is interested.

LOL

[valladon 4]

Just finished some power testing on the Arc Audio amps that I did a review of, there posting on my site n2caraudio.com. If anyone is interested.

Interested in what you used for a consistent load as well as how you measured the current and distortion.

I wonder if I should repost our discussion from the for sale thread?

[valladon 4]

No "audible" distortion is WAY over what the power specifications of the amplifier are set at which is exactly why they may or may not be under rated. You do see how big a flaw that is right? You cite 0.07% above for distortion and then its rated power. Obviously if you cranked that up to 5% the power numbers will scream upwards as well so then it becomes what is audible to you...

If your goal is to do testing and promote your site you really should do it in a way that is at least is scientific and something you can defend. I also think that the argument for using a speaker as a load is a crock. Sure it is real world for the setup that YOU have, but not for anyone else. It will also bias the test results once you start to mix it up with other amplifiers. And please stop citing numbers a digits that are WAY beyond the uncertainty in your measurement devices. There is a reason that in rudimentary Physics one of the first things they teach you is about significant digits.

That was the point of my testing, a .07 thd means very little to the human ear. I wanted to see what the amplifier was putting out in true usable power. I do agree with you on two point though. One I need to take the turn "putting out more that rated power" cause that implies that the numbers are at the same distortion % and s/n ratio as what the manufacturer stated. Two, the power numbers are not accurate enough to add a decimal place. LOL.

[Impious 1,476]

Just finished some power testing on the Arc Audio amps that I did a review of, there posting on my site n2caraudio.com. If anyone is interested.

Interested in what you used for a consistent load as well as how you measured the current and distortion.

I wonder if I should repost our discussion from the for sale thread?

Sean is exactly correct with his comments in that thread.

"Power testing" is useless if not conducted in the proper manor with the proper tools. Same reason I loathe people performing or discussing "clamp tests". Sure, you got some #'s to put in your review and on your site, but what is their usefulness or reliability? Pretty much zero.

And FYI, there isn't much of anything "real world" about that test. Please don't use that as a defense. A properly conducted set of scientific measurements represent the "real world" far better and much more accurately than any random and improperly conducted test, and the information gained from the scientific testing is much more useful and relevant than in the latter. People have this ignorance based confusion that there is some large disconnect between "scientific" and "real world", and then try to use the "But I'm testing it in the real world" defense. That's utter nonsense.

[///M5 2,833]

Just finished some power testing on the Arc Audio amps that I did a review of, there posting on my site n2caraudio.com. If anyone is interested.

Interested in what you used for a consistent load as well as how you measured the current and distortion.

I wonder if I should repost our discussion from the for sale thread?

Could move it or merge the threads if you like. I posted this here a day before responding in your for sale thread.

Edited October 15, 2010 by ///M5
Merged & Moved

[valladon 4]

Just finished some power testing on the Arc Audio amps that I did a review of, there posting on my site n2caraudio.com. If anyone is interested.

Interested in what you used for a consistent load as well as how you measured the current and distortion.

I wonder if I should repost our discussion from the for sale thread?

Could move it or merge the threads if you like. I posted this here a day before responding in your for sale thread.

Yea, lets merge them. This is a good discussion, and I think others would benefit from it.

[///M5 2,833]

That was the point of my testing, a .07 thd means very little to the human ear. I wanted to see what the amplifier was putting out in true usable power.

Well beyond the decimal place, your tens place is also inaccurate and by a crapton. Your "point" of testing is no more accurate than having two amps and listening to them an hour a part and picking a power level for each. For all I know your idea of "usable" is 30% distortion, hell if it is on a sub I would suspect that there are more people with their subs near 30% than near 0.07% in this world. By a landslide. As an aside, you also left frequency out of the equation.

Do yourself a favor, grab anyone you don't know off a forum that lives near you and have them do the exact test you did. If it is truly a blind test the results won't even be within 25% of your numbers.

Subjective or scientific. You can't have both and you chose subjective. Just don't put a number by it as it tells the internet nothing. If you want to do scientific then by all means I would love to go out of my way to support your site. The internet could use a site like that, but beware as we are just barely touching the surface of what is truly required to make it repeatable AND real.

[valladon 4]

Sean is exactly correct with his comments in that thread.

"Power testing" is useless if not conducted in the proper manor with the proper tools. Same reason I loathe people performing or discussing "clamp tests". Sure, you got some #'s to put in your review and on your site, but what is their usefulness or reliability? Pretty much zero.

And FYI, there isn't much of anything "real world" about that test. Please don't use that as a defense. A properly conducted set of scientific measurements represent the "real world" far better and much more accurately than any random and improperly conducted test, and the information gained from the scientific testing is much more useful and relevant than in the latter. People have this ignorance based confusion that there is some large disconnect between "scientific" and "real world", and then try to use the "But I'm testing it in the real world" defense. That's utter nonsense.

Just finished some power testing on the Arc Audio amps that I did a review of, there posting on my site n2caraudio.com. If anyone is interested.

Interested in what you used for a consistent load as well as how you measured the current and distortion.

I wonder if I should repost our discussion from the for sale thread?

Sean is exactly correct with his comments in that thread.

"Power testing" is useless if not conducted in the proper manor with the proper tools. Same reason I loathe people performing or discussing "clamp tests". Sure, you got some #'s to put in your review and on your site, but what is their usefulness or reliability? Pretty much zero.

And FYI, there isn't much of anything "real world" about that test. Please don't use that as a defense. A properly conducted set of scientific measurements represent the "real world" far better and much more accurately than any random and improperly conducted test, and the information gained from the scientific testing is much more useful and relevant than in the latter. People have this ignorance based confusion that there is some large disconnect between "scientific" and "real world", and then try to use the "But I'm testing it in the real world" defense. That's utter nonsense.

So what if I did the tests both with a distortion analyzer in to a 4 ohm dummy load and then showed those results vs what I call "real world" would that make more sense?

[///M5 2,833]

So what if I did the tests both with a distortion analyzer in to a 4 ohm dummy load and then showed those results vs what I call "real world" would that make more sense?

Without it surely makes none.

[valladon 4]

That was the point of my testing, a .07 thd means very little to the human ear. I wanted to see what the amplifier was putting out in true usable power.

Well beyond the decimal place, your tens place is also inaccurate and by a crapton. Your "point" of testing is no more accurate than having two amps and listening to them an hour a part and picking a power level for each. For all I know your idea of "usable" is 30% distortion, hell if it is on a sub I would suspect that there are more people with their subs near 30% than near 0.07% in this world. By a landslide. As an aside, you also left frequency out of the equation.

Do yourself a favor, grab anyone you don't know off a forum that lives near you and have them do the exact test you did. If it is truly a blind test the results won't even be within 25% of your numbers.

Subjective or scientific. You can't have both and you chose subjective. Just don't put a number by it as it tells the internet nothing. If you want to do scientific then by all means I would love to go out of my way to support your site. The internet could use a site like that, but beware as we are just barely touching the surface of what is truly required to make it repeatable AND real.

frequency was a 50hz test tone. I thought I put that in there.

[///M5 2,833]

frequency was a 50hz test tone. I thought I put that in there.

Then the numbers are off even further. Real world subjective distortion value chosen where your ear is the least sensitive to distortion isn't a particularly good idea. You'd be surprised how crappy your ears are there compared to in other frequencies.

[///M5 2,833]

BTW, just read your power testing numbers on the JL 500/1. 714w is FAR from reality. You really need to stop claiming you are testing power, it is a shame. Now perhaps you understand why Walmart amplifiers have such high ratings.

[valladon 4]

BTW, just read your power testing numbers on the JL 500/1. 714w is FAR from reality. You really need to stop claiming you are testing power, it is a shame. Now perhaps you understand why Walmart amplifiers have such high ratings.

Probably should tell that to car audio and electronic cause they came up with 733 driven to a reactive load