RC's Amp Challenge

[Impious 1,476]

Discuss.

[Nikuk 1]

I fully agree that a watt is a watt and his test is a great example of how to prove it. I'm not saying that it's a good test of equipment.

His test is designed, in every aspect, to prove his statement.

I do agree with his statement on the basic level that a hydrogen atom is a hydrogen atom... it's a matter of what you do with it.

However, I fully feel that an amplifier (common retail amp with all of it's features) will affect sound. There are so many things built into amps now (digital & ab) that the mere existence of the circuitry has to effect the flow of the signal / electricity.

RC's test basically guts ALL of those circuits.

I'm too drunk to type more. cohearently.

[Impious 1,476]

I fully agree that a watt is a watt and his test is a great example of how to prove it. I'm not saying that it's a good test of equipment.

His test is designed, in every aspect, to prove his statement.

I do agree with his statement on the basic level that a hydrogen atom is a hydrogen atom... it's a matter of what you do with it.

However, I fully feel that an amplifier (common retail amp with all of it's features) will affect sound. There are so many things built into amps now (digital & ab) that the mere existence of the circuitry has to effect the flow of the signal / electricity.

RC's test basically guts ALL of those circuits.

Okay..well, let me ask you this (you can wait to answer till you're sober ):

Two amps. Ones a class A. Ones a Class D (full range). Both measure to have a frequency response of +/-1db from 20-20khz, THD of below .1%, power output is identical, set for the same gain structure, damping factor is sufficient (>50) on both amps, and both have inaudible noise levels. Slew rates are likewise both in above the sufficient level.

Will those two amps still sound different? If so, why?

For this, we'll presume that no internal processing is in use (crossover, equalization/bass boost, etc).

I'm too drunk to type more. cohearently.

Nick must be drunk...he misspelled a word

[Nikuk 1]

two words (for now) ( those are not the 2 words): Ripple Voltage

[JimJ 11]

Two amps. Ones a class A. Ones a Class D (full range). Both measure to have a frequency response of +/-1db from 20-20khz, THD of below .1%, power output is identical, set for the same gain structure, damping factor is sufficient (>50) on both amps, and both have inaudible noise levels. Slew rates are likewise both in above the sufficient level.

Will those two amps still sound different? If so, why?

The Class A will have no crossover distortion as the waveform cycles back and forth - no switching topology is ever truly free from this. And although it doesn't directly the sound, I'd prefer the simplicity of the design.

And who says that anything above a DF of 50 is "sufficient"? I beg to differ...hehe.

[dave_Edwards 1]

I also agree 1 watt = 1 watt no matter who makes it (Kicker/PPI/PG/whoever) now saying that----when you buy most amps now a days you are paying for filters and eqs and crossovers(stuff I really don't like in an amp by the way) so the power goes by the wayside and you get an over EQed sound(un-natural) but to some people it sounds good---Jim has a good point with Class A amps----not many people run them because-----1=they are too much $$$ and 2= not enough power for "the kids" that are coming into car audio.

I will say this in closing-----give me a Class AB amp that can do good power and leave all the EQs and stuff off---please---the SQ in all of us would come out.

like I always say----just my 2 cents---take it for what it is worth.

[Supa_c 1]

Im just lazy and use the H/U's "processing" to do all of that stuff.

Its way eaiser to change it too

[psycho72 1]

Economically it can't be true. If it were one of the big guys would already be making a line that covered the no processing crowd.

But if it does turn out to be true then let me know so I can create an amp with an isolated, regulated and seperate psu (that will come in several sizes and power every amp in your system-modular bro modular), no eq, no crossover, no sub control, nada and come out of the gate claiming "Home Audio for the Automobile".

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

two words (for now) ( those are not the 2 words): Ripple Voltage

can you teach me what the effects are and how to control it?

[brad 0]

Economically it can't be true. If it were one of the big guys would already be making a line that covered the no processing crowd.

But if it does turn out to be true then let me know so I can create an amp with an isolated, regulated and seperate psu (that will come in several sizes and power every amp in your system-modular bro modular), no eq, no crossover, no sub control, nada and come out of the gate claiming "Home Audio for the Automobile".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IIRC... the US Amps tube line have no internal processing(crossovers).

Plus they are pretty reasonably priced for a hybrid tube amp, and put out a decent amount of power.

[Impious 1,476]

http://forum.elitecaraudio.com/showthread....threadid=123226

Excellent read on the topic.

If you ever have some free time on your hands, another good read: http://forum.elitecaraudio.com/showthread....threadid=123205 as werewolf does a good job of tackling the "anti-RC" crowd's typical complaints

[95stroked1500 0]

i read part of it.

sure a watt is a watt, if it is accurately measured and stated. but all amps do not sound the same. take a helix who brags about using 1% tolerance components. it's signal is going to be far more precise and accurate than a sony who's components are at least 5% or more. i've heard sonic difference between amps many, many times over.

i've tried the xtant full range class D, many brands of class AB, class T, X, DE, etc..

[Impious 1,476]

i read part of it.

sure a watt is a watt, if it is accurately measured and stated. but all amps do not sound the same. take a helix who brags about using 1% tolerance components. it's signal is going to be far more precise and accurate than a sony who's components are at least 5% or more. i've heard sonic difference between amps many, many times over.

i've tried the xtant full range class D, many brands of class AB, class T, X, DE, etc..

"far more precise" how? It's late, so my initial logic here on the figures may not be totally accurate....but if the amp, with 1% components played 20-20khz at +/-1db, then you add a 5% error in that level you are now at 20-20khz @

+/- 1.05db. A difference in frequency response of .05db is NOT going to be audible (the MINIMUM for a trained ear is .25db..untrained ~1db).. Distortion differences of .05% are NOT going to be audible.

But, on that note.....the premise of the amp challenge is NOT to prove that "all amps sound the same"

[95stroked1500 0]

i read part of it.

sure a watt is a watt, if it is accurately measured and stated. but all amps do not sound the same. take a helix who brags about using 1% tolerance components. it's signal is going to be far more precise and accurate than a sony who's components are at least 5% or more. i've heard sonic difference between amps many, many times over.

i've tried the xtant full range class D, many brands of class AB, class T, X, DE, etc..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"far more precise" how? It's late, so my initial logic here on the figures may not be totally accurate....but if the amp, with 1% components played 20-20khz at +/-1db, then you add a 5% error in that level you are now at 20-20khz @

+/- 1.05db. A difference in frequency response of .05db is NOT going to be audible (the MINIMUM for a trained ear is .25db..untrained ~1db).. Distortion differences of .05% are NOT going to be audible.

But, on that note.....the premise of the amp challenge is NOT to prove that "all amps sound the same"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

if you're running sine sweep from 20-20k, could sound the same. but if music is involved, it will not. as the tones, accuracies, and dynamics get deviated further away from how they're supposed to be. it's not neccessarily the db's going up or down. like the finer details getting muddied and less seperated. a "C" note going into the amp a a good note, but by the time it comes out, it sounds foul. let's say it goes through 10, +/- 5% components and all are -4% off. that makes it 40% away from where it should be. that's what i was referring to.

i only read a little bit. so i need to go back and see what all was discussed.