Help choosing a 10 inch midbass driver.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I am DEFINETLY in love with the technical side of things as much as I am the music. I really want to do a 3-way as stated but I want to know what I am doing first in respect to tuning and different alignments. Believe me you guys will be the first to know when I start designing my three way.

You are correct Seth, the 3'er's have some limitations up high. I may add a passive tweeter for the time being until I get more processing capabilitys. that is the other factor holding me back.

I love how sweet/head cracking a good home stereo sounds, SO if I had to decribe what it is I am trying to accomplish in this setup it would be to have that super crisp, clean, head cracking sound. I realize right away that to create that sound in a car is going to take some serious time and effort. I know I am creating an illusion.

I am open to different recipes, and am someone that will follow you Old Bulls advice. So lets start talking processing for a 3-way+sub, I think that would be a good next step.

[///M5 2,833]

I don't think that is the case at all. He may be output limited by the 3", but it will blend nicely with that 10". The Aura is an amazing sub in many ways, but the one that makes it great in this application is its upper response. A 4" mid and a tweet could give him more output, but personally I'd rather lose a little and have everything on axis like he does in particular considering this is a first attempt at running active.

I am just not a fan of expecting such a small speaker to provide such a dynamic range. I guess it is more a personal preference, but I would never do it. Sure, tuning will be much easier, but the reality of the situation is that a 3 way will work better. As the small driver is pulling such a high workload from the lower register, reaching a fairly high excursion and realizing a rise in Qts where Bl is becoming markedly more parabolic, you are demanding the driver to perform such delicacies as the harmonics or decay from a cymbal crash... it is just not a recipe for good sound quality. I personally feel with all the work J is putting into it, he will be able to get it tuned right. It isn't like so many other active installs I see where people just toss drivers in and set their crossovers and call it active... he is working on manipulating the speakers through enclosure design and placement. I think he can get it done.

This is a car and being so as you know many rules go out the window. It is sort of like using a full ranger at home. The trade-off's are the same, but there is a benefit from a point source as you and I have discussed when it comes to driver spacing. In this case the spacing is zero. He also isn't having the 3 playing that low, at least not in a normal full range mode which lightens the load. Some tweeter to add sparkle at the top would indeed help, but I find that a lot less necessary in a vehicle than in a normal listening environment. I have heard a couple unbelievable installs that relied on a 3" to pull all the way to the top.

From the advent of a first attempt at running active it is always the install that baffles the users. Allowing a small driver to be placed on axis and up high REALLY help the stage. Add to that the lack of knowledge of crossovers and what needs to be done and having only two drivers to cross between is a HUGE advantage. In a perfect world he could fit a 4" and a tweet up in his dash, but again I am not sure without some hours of playing that the result would be better. Tuning is not currently the OP's strength and learning with the setup he has is a stellar idea.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

And learning I am.

[sandt38 448]

Depends on what processing options or set up you want.

I plan on a Pioneer DEX-P99RS (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/In-Dash/CD-Players/DEX-P99RS). But my cheap ass nature is preventing me from dropping those duckets on a receiver. The DEH-P880PRS (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/In-Dash/CD-Players/DEH-P880PRS?tab=B) is also an option. While it is discontinued, it can still be found.

Then you have stand alone processors. Audiocontrol makes some of the best. Look into the DQXS. I like the dash mounted control for those as well.

I am thinking about running my Milles and the Anarchys in a 3 way. I figure the Milles in a kick pod and the anarchys sealed up in a door box. I am still on the fence about which route I will be following, albeit the AC or the p99. I really like the P99, but I might opt to go with the AC instead... Who knows though, I may do like I already said I would do and leave my system alone. I am very pleased right now, and I just don't know that I have the want to anymore.

[Impious 1,476]

The driver is more than fine for an IB'ish install and sealing anything in a car is far from trivial in particular for a first timer.

I suggested sealed because I presumed part of the cause behind thermally overpowering the driver was that the low Q resulted in a "thin" type of midbass sound, which he attempted to compensate for by applying more power. In which case, sealing the driver and getting better response might help solve some of the problem, and he seemed to enjoy the sound of the Aura's in the sealed enclosure.

IMO, that sounds like a pretty reasonable option for him considering he already has the pods built that he essentially just needs to close off the backside of to create a sealed enclosure for the drivers.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Thanks again for the help guys.

I know there is no magic anwser, but rather several things working in concert to achieve my goals.

At the present time I am pleased with the very accurate sound stage from the 3"er's, with is my number one goal. So I will do as M5 sugested and continue to learn with the current set-up. I am getting a more tuned ear already and I am currently dealing with the anomalies in this set-up before I start changing equipment.

In respects to the midbass, I think Impious hit the nail on the head. I think I am only lacking in the 80hz region. The sealed box (higher Qtc) gave me the reliziam that I am craving in that band range. I couldn't really hear a difference sitting in my driveway with the door open between the IB and sealed box, but driving down the road it was night and day. I attribute this to cabin gain, but am not sure? I try reproducing this sound with the EQ in the IB set-up but the sealed box seems to have more cone control.

The other thing I think is working against me is road noise. Fucking Honda's.

SO my current goals are:

1)build sealed inserts for my pods

2)kill more road noise

3)keep learning the EQ

[cobra93 47]

Once again, it's time to do work.

Good luck j, keep us updated.

[///M5 2,833]

I'd spend some time listening with the sub off as well. Try and re-create the problem that took them out without getting to that level. I think you'll be surprised at what you hear without the sub.

I don't disagree at all with Brad's suggestion, but I'd always first play with what I have and REALLY determine what is missing before making any change. On top of that if you are thermally wasting those drivers then your idea and mine of reference levels are a bit apart

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I'd spend some time listening with the sub off as well. Try and re-create the problem that took them out without getting to that level. I think you'll be surprised at what you hear without the sub.

I don't disagree at all with Brad's suggestion, but I'd always first play with what I have and REALLY determine what is missing before making any change. On top of that if you are thermally wasting those drivers then your idea and mine of reference levels are a bit apart

I have been listening with the sub off (like you told me the first time) for almost two weeks now. I think the sub is covering more than I originally thought, but blends so well I couldn't tell. I listened last week with the Aura in a .25 cuft test box and have been listening this week with the Aura in the door. I will do as suggested and coutinue to test back and forth until I can determine what is really neccessary.

So far I think I was just asking them to play to low, which was fine until I really wanged on them. They blended great crossed from 50 to 400 @12db, But I should have a steeper slope or move the xover point for wanging on them. (once again like you told me the first time)

I will admit that I was being a jackass when I cooked the one driver, I was showing off to a drummer friend and got carried away with the volume. Lesson learned.

I really think that the Aura is the best driver for my application, I just need to take more time tuning. I will do a ton of A B comparisions between the two alignments once the second driver shows up in the mail.

On a lighter note I want a better EQ.

[///M5 2,833]

H701 will solve your woes, although with the 9886 you'll really need the controller too.

[Impious 1,476]

Or the JBL MS8

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

After a few weeks of testing I finaly found the problem. My door pod resonates like crazy at and below 125hz at high volumes. I am sure it is resonating at all frequencys and lower volumes, thats just what it took to amplify the effect enough to notice.

So I give myself a big fat fail. My whole door is a fail.

I am back at the drawing board as we speak. I plan on losing the pod I have now and starting over. I plan on mounting a sheet of 3/4" MDF to the whole inside metal door panel, and building a pod up out of layers of 3/4" MDF and so on.

Also I plan on crossing the midbass higher and with a steeper slope to clean up the signal.(i liked the sound better also)

I ordered the 10" replacement and Solen accidentally sent me a 12". My delima today is I want to switch to the 12" Aura's now since I am already going to rebuild the WHOLE door. SO MY BIG QUESTION TODAY IS what will I gain from switching to the 12"?

1)More cone area

2)higher Qtc (.620)

3)more output

4)lower fs/fc

IS there anything I am missing?????

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

OH, did I forget the pictures of this 12" sexy beast......

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

WOW, I jizzed myself on the way to work today. I did some temp bracing against the door, and WOW I found what I have missing!!!

I will be buying a sheet of 1/2" and 3/4" MDF tomarrow and start building the NEW doors.

Why the hell did Solen send me the wrong speaker and fucking tempt me??????? I am still debating on the 10"s or the 12"s and am hoping Sean and Brad will chime in and help the young bull.

[Kanaworm$ 292]

Thing I am doing on my midbass testing is putting my 6.5" Peerless in and mounting to the original inside baffle and letting them play full range to find all my irritating rattles, resonances and then applying dampening as I find issues.

Just like on an enclosure, rigidity is the key and the stouter the panel/pod the more midbass a person will have.

[///M5 2,833]

That 12 can play more than high enough to blend, but will beam easier. What frequencies do you need it to play to?

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

That 12 can play more than high enough to blend, but will beam easier. What frequencies do you need it to play to?

I plan on crossing them @ 400hz with a 12db slope or steeper on top and 63 or 80hz down low with a 12db slope or steeper.

[Impious 1,476]

Sean seems far more familiar with those drivers than myself. 400hz has a wavelength of 33.75", so beaming shouldn't be an issue over that bandwidth. If I haven't posted it already, you can figure out the inductive lowpass effects with the formula;

f = Re/(2*Pi*Le)

*Le in Henries (it's listed in T/S as millhenries, so you'll have to convert it before working the formula)

Ideally this would be 1 octave above your intended crossover frequency.

The other thing I would look at is a frequency response and impedance graph. A large peak in the response and a ripple in the impedance curve can indicate cone break-up at that frequency, which would want to be avoided.

Other than that......as long as it plays high enough for your needs, it should play lower than your needs since low frequency performance will be improved over a 10", so you should be good to go. And really, the increased cone area will reduce the required excursion for a given output level, so distortion at various listening levels should be lower with the 12" than a 10"

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Thanks again for the equation (you posted it in on page one), I have used it a many time already. The Aura's don't give an inductance value (Le), but I assume from the posted FR gragh being reasonable flat up to around 2khz (big spike around 2.2khz) that they should be good to my where I am asking them to play.

I tryed understanding the beaming concept when we discussed it in the "Audio Terminology" thread, but as you and Sean already explained, it's not that straight forward. I guess if you want to give me the equation I will try to understand it. Otherwise I am waiting for Sean's FINAL word on if I should run the 12".

My other obvious option is to mount the 10 in one door and the 12 in the other and test that way, which I am also planning on doing anyways if I keep going the 12 route. ( I have one of each at this point)

I am currently cutting and test fitting a sheet of 1/2" for the starter layer in the new door panels. I will build up layers of 3/4" to my final depth and so on..... I am now planning on using Birch ply for the door construction, unless there is any objections?

I will start posting pics of the new door build soon.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I have One more question I should bring up while we are disussing the Aura's reach.

IF I switch the 3" full ranger out for a tweeter in the future,( say something like the Scan Speak 6020-10) for more output. What is the highest I can get the 10 and 12 to play???

[///M5 2,833]

The 12 has been used in home audio speakers playing up to 1kHz. Personally that doesn't mean it will blend well with a tweeter in a car. I'd stick with the 3 or go to a 4 & a tweet, but I would first nail down what you have and determine what bothers you. Adding a tweet for just the really high frequencies wouldn't be all that hard.

[Impious 1,476]

I would agree with Sean that trying to use the 12" with a tweeter in a 2-way in an automobile is probably a bad idea. I would stick with a 3-way front stage and add a tweeter to cover to top few octaves if necessary.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Sounds like I am clear for take off with the 12"s. ( I just wanted to know its limits) I got the first sheet of 3/4" birch cut and mounted to one door today. (pics coming) That MoFo is already WAAAAAAY more solid!!!

I am fairly happy with the 3", but would like to add a tweeter for the top. I understand that this doesn't need to be a fancy or expensive tweeter. What frequency should I plan on crossing the tweeter at? Do I need to bandpass the 3"? I don't think the 3" is audible at or above 12khz, but I could be wrong. Any suggestions for a tweeter?

[sefugi 166]

Damn! 12's in the doors?? Wow, and I thought the 10's were crazy. This is going to be insane! Carry on!!

[///M5 2,833]

Dayton ND20 would do more than fine. I wouldn't worry about bandpassing, just high pass the tweet with a simple first order passive. You may want to use your active temporarily to find out at what freq though. If not, 15k is probably a reasonable choice for a random guess.