Help choosing a 10 inch midbass driver.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I started testing Q alignments with the one living Aura yesterday.

I removed the fuse from the sub amp, effectively disarming the sub. Next I turned the Full rangers down quit a bit.

I first listened to the Sony xplods I have in the doors temporary, I won't go into how bad they sound, BUT they did give my ears bias of what I DON'T want.

I only have one Aura So I mounted her in the passangers door and diconnected the other door. I first listened to Tool Undertow, Right away I could hear the difference. The Aura came to life with clarity and definition!! Only the "bottom" sounded a little distant. Next I listened to AC/DC Back in Black. Once again the Aura sounded so smooth, with only the kick drum sounding distant. Third I listen to the Beach Boys, I only listened to song Kokomo and Good Vibrations, always good for the quartet of male vocals and easily picked out bass guitar. Once again VERY smooth and only alitttle light in the "boom" and "kick". Lastly I listened to some test tones. the 63hz was down 5db I would guess and 80hz was only about 3db down (once again only a guess) and everything from 100hz up was pretty level other than a 2-3db peak a 200hz. The Aura plays up to around 630hz with my 400hz @12db xover point setting, and rolls off easy on the ears.

Next I mounted the Aura in my .6 cu ft test box and sat the box in the passengers floorboard. I listened with the same list of music followed by the test tones. I honestly heard little difference.

Third I put volume compensators in my test box to bring the volume down to around .25 cu ft and once again listened to the same line up. once again little difference to my ear. NOT enough to justify sealing up my door pods. IF you guys don't remember, which I don't expect you to. MY doors are sealed with aluminum plate over the holes, butyl rope between the door cross supports and outer skin, then completely covered in Damplifier Pro on both panels, then I have a layer of LLP. My pods are mounted to the plastic panel BUT I have 3- 1/4" bolts going through the MDF ring in the pod all the way through to the door metal. Put it this way THE DOORS ARE SOLID.

Next I redownloaded WinISD Pro Alpha. I ran the Aura through the program and it said everything I had already done on paper and heard by ear. That a Qtc of .707 was in a .6 cu ft box, and I was at around .5 in my current door enclosure. AND that there was a peak at 200hz. I then ran the Peerless someone suggested earlier in the thread, and it graghed high down low but lost everything past like 200-250 hz. Then I ran the Dayton HO but not the HF model. same as the Peerless only in alot smaller box. then I ran anDcon and Icon just for giggles. Same as the Dayton, only they wanted like .1 cu ft. haha.

Anyways long story short I was honestly pretty happy with the way the Aura's sounded, other than maybe output. I like how easily they reach up high, and add so much warmth. The Aura's sound so clear and smooth I don't know that I am going to find much better. The BTL sub plays the kick drum like its going out of style and fills ALL the void that is missing. In fact The BTL and mids where blended so well that I though all that kick was coming from the Aura's.

I want to add again that the living Aura coil is hardly dis-colored, Mostly still copper colored. I ASSUME I had the gains set different for one to burn up and the other to hardly touched????? I only ask this because I want confirmation. ALSO the surround was contacting the grill on long excursion. (disussed in the end of my build log)

SO I am debating ordering another Aura and setting the gains right and not driving them so hard this time or ????? I am trying to find a speaker that models about the same as the Aura in my 2.5 cu ft, BUT one that has more RMS and Xmax. Please give me suggetions for different drivers to model that may fit my needs. I wouldn't mind ordering the one Aura and another set of drivers of the same caliber to try out and sell if I don't like them.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I forgot to add that I am happy with the output when the car is sitting still. I have conquered ALL road noise from the rear, sides and floor. I am starting on the firewall and front fender wells next, I am also going to fill the bottom of the a-pillars and the running board with foam because I think alot of the road noise is inside the open body cavitys.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I tryed keeping my post short and to the point, but so much to go over. SO one more thing to add.

I prefered the sound of the midbass in the door. I also played with the EQ in the 63 and 80 band while testing and it also confirmed I am happy with the Aura's sound in the door more than the sealed pod. I liked hearing the guitars so much clear and cleaner and feel the BTL is handling the lower midbass with ease.

[sandt38 448]

Too bad you have a 10 inch hole. I might suggest the Anarchys. They are a steal right now.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Too bad you have a 10 inch hole. I might suggest the Anarchys. They are a steal right now.

Maybe for my next time around I will use dual Anarchys, I hope to buy them soon.

Should I be looking more at a mid range driver and just let the sub do the bottom?

[6APPEAL 7]

Too bad you have a 10 inch hole.

Or I would suggest the new Blues 8's. I've heard them in one of our team installs (kicks) and in a pair of the old Blues Home Audio 8" cabinets. Very nice and in some respects better than my Blues 6.5's.

John

[sandt38 448]

Too bad you have a 10 inch hole. I might suggest the Anarchys. They are a steal right now.

Maybe for my next time around I will use dual Anarchys, I hope to buy them soon.

Should I be looking more at a mid range driver and just let the sub do the bottom?

TBH I think tht you are suffering using the extended range driver and a 10 inch midbass. I feel a 3 way set is definitely best, given a proper install, but expecting that little driver to fill the void above the 10 inch midbass is asking a little too much. If I were dead set on a 10 inch midbass, I might look into either a dedicated 6.5 or 5.25 midrange and a tweeter. But with this type of install you have to have a more on axis install because the midrange can start beaming being so large. Granted you can find certain drivers with phase plugs or odd shaped cones to aid in off axis dispersion, but still, there are limits. You could skinny down to a 4 inch midrange and a tweet to take away some of the beaming that may occur with a 6.5 or 5.25 midrange as well. Just a couple thoughts for you to ponder. I know that leg space is limited though, so you really need to figure out what will work best based around the space you have.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

This is my first active setup is why i went with the 2-way. Once I feel I completely understand what I am doing in respect to tuning, I will probably switch to a 3-way. I debate the kick pods for a 5.25 or 6.5 and a tweeter. Otherwise I will just rework the door panel. No way I am going to get a 4" and tweeter on axis on the dash.

At the present moument I am going to order another Aura and stick with the 2-way for a few more months. I will keep looking at midbass drivers and modeling them to see IF i can find another one to try. SO I am still open to suggestions.

[cobra93 47]

I'm glad to hear that you're happy with what you have and I hope you don't run into the same issue again.

Your doors must be solid if those aura's aren't rattling the crap out of them.

Edited July 17, 2010 by cobra93

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

After several days of listening to the Aura in the different alignments I will have to say I was lying when I said there was little difference. I am pretty impressed with the Aura in the .25 cu ft box, the midbass is nice and thick. I could almost go without a sub, ALMOST.

I have been searching for a driver that models similiar to the Aura but has more xmax, I found this one but want you speaker guru's opinions. This driver models very well but I want to make sure I am not overlooking something.

http://www.solen.ca/pdf/css/sdx10.pdf

[sandt38 448]

I almost mentioned that when you asked previously... What is your upper crossover point going to be?

[Impious 1,476]

After several days of listening to the Aura in the different alignments I will have to say I was lying when I said there was little difference. I am pretty impressed with the Aura in the .25 cu ft box, the midbass is nice and thick. I could almost go without a sub, ALMOST.

I have been searching for a driver that models similiar to the Aura but has more xmax, I found this one but want you speaker guru's opinions. This driver models very well but I want to make sure I am not overlooking something.

http://www.solen.ca/pdf/css/sdx10.pdf

Based on listed parameters it has an inductive corner frequency of ~392hz.

If you still intend on trying to use a 400hz crossover frequency, that may be pushing the envelope.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Do you guys know if anyone makes these for a 10"?

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I just pulled the trigger on the last available Aura!!! Shipping from Canada is a MoFo. 40 bucks for the one driver.

Now I just need to level match the gains better and not drive them so hard and clip them with boosted sounding music.

If I can't find any pre built sealed pod inserts I will just have to build my own, but will like the increased power handling and thicker midbass.

[cobra93 47]

I just pulled the trigger on the last available Aura!!! Shipping from Canada is a MoFo. 40 bucks for the one driver.

Now I just need to level match the gains better and not drive them so hard and clip them with boosted sounding music.

If I can't find any pre built sealed pod inserts I will just have to build my own, but will like the increased power handling and thicker midbass.

I thought you fried the coil on one of the Aura's. You did mention that you didn't have the gains equal between the two (if I recall correctly).

Your thermal power handling, if anything, will go down in a sealed pod versus open to your door.

I'd hate to see you toasting another coil is all. Perhaps it was only the gain setting that caused this, but regardless, congrats on your purchase.

Maybe you can find a bowl that matches the hole at the back of your pod and use that to glass it closed (as a form), or I've used chicken wire and twist ties to hold the shape of the mat while I'm glassing the structure.

Edited July 19, 2010 by cobra93

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I plan on building a mold and fiberglassin' me up a couple of them there inserts. I will take pictures.

I thought according to hoffmans law, with a small enclosure power handling goes up, but I don't even know if hoffmans law applys to midbasses?

[cobra93 47]

Power handling will go up in a smaller enclosure to a point, but you've found the thermal limits of one Aura already. Not the excursion limits.

The unequal gain setting between the two Aura's (oversight/oops, or whatever) is probably the reason one of them survived.

^^^^ this is assuming that I remember what you posted earlier^^^^^

If you put it in a sealed enclosure you will heat up the air, as well as your door is sealed, it has a larger volume of air to dissipate the heat to.

I'm sure you didn't seal off the drain holes, door handles, the boot that passes wire through the door jam and the seal against the window completely?

These may not be big leaks, but the air is still being replaced (forced in/out of the door) with cooler air, or at least the air isn't confined in one small space.

Think about the output/air movement/sound those woofers are producing, now imagine you had them in a ported box. That's allot of air movement that's leaking past the area's I've mentioned above.

I just hate to see you toast another coil.

Since one of them lived you may not have that problem again, did you by chance put a dmm on the outputs to see how much power each one was receiving afterward?

That should give you a good safe limit to shoot for (power wise).

Edited July 20, 2010 by cobra93

[sandt38 448]

A sealed box won't retain that much heat, and a vented box does not aid in cooling. In fact, ported enclosures are more likely to thermal then sealed... Why?

Sealed will increase mechanical powerhandling, but it doesn't really have any affect on thermal powerhandling. The fried coil is more a function of clipping then the door it was in, or the enclosure, and it won't be affected one way or the other by the box he is planning.

[cobra93 47]

A sealed box won't retain that much heat, and a vented box does not aid in cooling. In fact, ported enclosures are more likely to thermal then sealed... Why?

Sealed will increase mechanical powerhandling, but it doesn't really have any affect on thermal powerhandling. The fried coil is more a function of clipping then the door it was in, or the enclosure, and it won't be affected one way or the other by the box he is planning.

I'd assume (ported,lower thermal power handling) because of less cone movement around tuning frequency, less air movement over the coil.

In fact ,I'd assume the sun will increase the temps. in the door more than the speaker could anyway.

Edited July 20, 2010 by cobra93

[sandt38 448]

Very good

Also keep in mind that dynamic impedance is lowest near tuning, when the cone is not moving much, and therefore it is seeing more power at that point then any other.

Also, the coil gets a lot hotter under normal use then the sun will heat up the door. Therefore the speaker will still dissipate the heat as heat travels from hot to cold.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

This is another reason I have found that I like aluminum cones. The Aura's are also vented under the spider and the pole.

I know I killed the one Aura with a clipped sig from the studio boosted music. I think I had the gain set pretty good, (by ear) I just pushed them with the wrong sig. Believe me I have learned ALOT from my recent experience.

No I did not use a DMM at any point. Everyone seems to have different opinions on that on.

NOW I shall start reading about this dynamic impedance.

[sandt38 448]

It is really simple. While the speaker has a rated impedance, the only time you really ever see this rated impedance is just sitting there.However, with power being sent to it the impedance changes all the time. This is dependent upon the enclosure and frequency. I know you have seen the SPL guys talk about box rise.

Anyways. most enclosure programs will have a dynamic impedance graph on them. Dynamic impedance is important when designing for a tube amp system.

[///M5 2,833]

J-road, not sure how I missed this news or your thread. Bummer on the 10. You definitely made the right choice in getting a second one. Three main reasons. 1) Great drivers and will be worth WAY more used as a pair, 2) you haven't had your system long enough to really understand what you do and don't like in order to allow you to pick a different driver, 3) There really aren't many if any other 10's that can reach as high as the Aura.

As for its death, I can assume that you are so used to distortion that you pushed these into their limits. Output from a clean driver has a tendency to not sound loud until you distort it...that is until you train your ear. This takes some time though. When you put the new one in, rely more on your sub (ie raise the low cross point of the Aura's) and then level match them with your 3's. You won't be maxed in the output realm setup this way, but you won't kill anything and you can drive around for a while getting used to it.

TBH I think tht you are suffering using the extended range driver and a 10 inch midbass. I feel a 3 way set is definitely best, given a proper install, but expecting that little driver to fill the void above the 10 inch midbass is asking a little too much. If I were dead set on a 10 inch midbass, I might look into either a dedicated 6.5 or 5.25 midrange and a tweeter. But with this type of install you have to have a more on axis install because the midrange can start beaming being so large. Granted you can find certain drivers with phase plugs or odd shaped cones to aid in off axis dispersion, but still, there are limits. You could skinny down to a 4 inch midrange and a tweet to take away some of the beaming that may occur with a 6.5 or 5.25 midrange as well. Just a couple thoughts for you to ponder. I know that leg space is limited though, so you really need to figure out what will work best based around the space you have.

I don't think that is the case at all. He may be output limited by the 3", but it will blend nicely with that 10". The Aura is an amazing sub in many ways, but the one that makes it great in this application is its upper response. A 4" mid and a tweet could give him more output, but personally I'd rather lose a little and have everything on axis like he does in particular considering this is a first attempt at running active.

Your thermal power handling, if anything, will go down in a sealed pod versus open to your door.

I realize you added the term thermal, but that isn't the problem. Power handling for that driver would go up in a sealed pod versus the door, but it isn't worth the effort. The driver is more than fine for an IB'ish install and sealing anything in a car is far from trivial in particular for a first timer. I will add though that the OP's capabilities to do the install, ask the right questions, and follow through is much beyond most first time active installers.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Thanks for the input Sean. I will take a little more time setting everything this time around and not be so careless with the volume.

As far as the 3"ers output, they do great on axis. The beauty of the Aura playing so high is that they add so much relizam to the 3"ers.

thanks for the acknowledging my persevenance. I won't stop until I am a Master.

Jared

[sandt38 448]

I don't think that is the case at all. He may be output limited by the 3", but it will blend nicely with that 10". The Aura is an amazing sub in many ways, but the one that makes it great in this application is its upper response. A 4" mid and a tweet could give him more output, but personally I'd rather lose a little and have everything on axis like he does in particular considering this is a first attempt at running active.

I am just not a fan of expecting such a small speaker to provide such a dynamic range. I guess it is more a personal preference, but I would never do it. Sure, tuning will be much easier, but the reality of the situation is that a 3 way will work better. As the small driver is pulling such a high workload from the lower register, reaching a fairly high excursion and realizing a rise in Qts where Bl is becoming markedly more parabolic, you are demanding the driver to perform such delicacies as the harmonics or decay from a cymbal crash... it is just not a recipe for good sound quality. I personally feel with all the work J is putting into it, he will be able to get it tuned right. It isn't like so many other active installs I see where people just toss drivers in and set their crossovers and call it active... he is working on manipulating the speakers through enclosure design and placement. I think he can get it done.