Total Midbass Confusion

[Cant Get Enough 6]

Your hearing the direction of the subs becauseyour crossed over too high, delving into the cloudy frequencies which actually cover the midbass your speakers are producing. I have a recording studio and must clean between 150 to 400 Hz (cut too much and your sound can become thin) on most if not all bass instruments to allow the mid and sub bass to envelope the listener not to distinguish direction. Providing clean rich bass. I have T1652-s front, T154's rear on a T6004 and get excellent results with all the midbass I nedd supplemented with a pair of P3's on a T6002 providing all missing sub frequencies. I also along with my passive crossover on the T1652-s I shelve them at 80 Hz

On another note bass frequencies are between 25 to 300 Hz wher the midbass lies between 120 and 150 Hz so I wouldn't set a subwoofer crossover any higher than 150 Hz and I personally set mine at 100 Hz leaving my 6.5 to handle the rest but if you really want lo add, try a single 8" and cross it over cutting 60 Hz and lower and 150 Hz higher and set the gain too fill out the midbass but not too much so you dont muddy the overall sound

I can't say I've ever seen a broadly accepted definition for "midbass". Just a simple google search for the definition of midbass results in 3 different frequency ranges from 3 different sources. The definition of "midbass" is going to vary depending on the source. There's no authority, that I'm aware of, that can or has defined the "official" range of frequencies that encompasses "midbass". Everyone's opinion and definition will vary. And just an FYI to others, when most people on the forums are discussing "midbass", as well as most manufacturers in our hobby, they are not talking about such a narrowly defined range.

Here are the google search results;

Definitions of midbass on the Web:

• An area of the low frequency range, usually represented from approximately 80 to 500 Hz.
  www.htsa.com/glossary.aspx
• The middle of the bass part of the frequency range, from approximately 50 to 100 Hz (upper bass would be from 100 to 200 Hz). Also used as a term for loudspeaker drivers designed to reproduce both bass and midrange frequencies.
  www.eliteavi.com/hometheaterglossary.html
• The audio frequencies just above the Sub-bass range from around 100Hz up to 400Hz.
  www.wantsound.com/glossary.htm

Regardless, our identification of sound and localization cues has little to do with what frequency range we arbitrarily define as being "midbass", and everything to do with the wavelength of the frequencies in relation to the dimensions of our head and the physiology of human hearing. If the slope of the crossover is decently steep, a subwoofer with a crossover point of 250hz should be pretty well within the realm of what I described above. That said, I wouldn't recommend a 250hz crossover point for a subwoofer for a number of other reasons.

Without hearing the system, there are a number of reasons why the subwoofer might be obviously identifiable as being "behind" you. First would be any rattles/buzzing/humming/etc that may be coming from panels behind the listener. Second would be any mechanical noises that subwoofer might be producing. Third would be tactile sensations....for example, feeling the vibration of the back of the seat. That's a quick but certainly not comprehensive list of a few reasons.

You're right but I picked the average out of my six text books

[Cant Get Enough 6]

I use the crossovers supplied for the speakers for controlling the frequencies between the 6.5's and the tweets then my HU has a high pass shelf which I set at 80 Hz cause 55 Hz for the passive is a little too low for the gain level I wan't to set with my T6004 that I set too all pass but if you dont have an HU with a shelf you could use the amps crossover.

There is a specific type of filter that is called a "shelf", and it is different than a standard HPF or LPF. I would be seriously surprised if your HU included an actual shelf filter. In fact I'd be very interested in know what HU that was as I don't know of any, and very few car audio processors actually have shelving capabilities.

The graph of a standard HPF or LPF look like a gently rolling hill; a shelf filter looks like, well, a shelf (hence the name).

DEH-P7200HD also a shelf will have a slope just depends how it's programmed soft knee or hard knee octave (Q) and decibals are all contributing factors.

LPF and HPF are shelving filters they are basically true curve EQ's that turn down to "infinity"

Also if you have a right angle shelf or cutoff point it will sound unatural and unpleasent, slopes are a must with shelves

Since I have a recording and mixing backgroud been doing it for 7 years narrow definitions are a must This is where my understanding comes from.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Cant Get Enough

[Cant Get Enough 6]

I think my car audio break through was just broken up...lol No, im hanging on the best i can with you guys. I really appreciate the lessons, thank you. Im sure that there are others reading this that are in the same boat as me but were afraid to ask such remedial questions.

So if i set the amps crossover to 150, and set the amp filter to "LP", the speaker will play 150Hz down to 30Hz? And if i set the amp filter to "HP", then the speaker will see 150Hz up to 3.5Khz?

And to keep my midbass in a certian range like say 150-250Hz , id need to include a "band pass crossover" also?

Am i interpeting this correctly, or at least in the same ballpark?

HP will allow the speaker to see 150 HZ and up to the limit of your amp 15 Khz,18 Khz 20 Khz,etc, etc etc whatever your amp goes to.

For example with slopes you'll will be passing frequencies past the cutoff point but will be decreasing at a set rate becoming less audible as you go "down the slope"

Edited June 30, 2010 by Cant Get Enough

[cvame 0]

So I'm at least in the same ballpark then? Good, ive been reading up on cross overs. Enough to find out that narrow band pass ones are complicated. Is there anywhere I could just buy them?

[ABXX49 20]

So I'm at least in the same ballpark then? Good, ive been reading up on cross overs. Enough to find out that narrow band pass ones are complicated. Is there anywhere I could just buy them?

Sure, you can buy pre-made crossovers, but is it recommended? Not really. Every vehicle is different, so you'll need to tune accordingly if you're looking for good results.

[cvame 0]

Is there a such of thing as an "adjustable narrow band pass crossover" then?? lol

[altoncustomtech 773]

I would also like to add that after sound deadening and other such items get done that the OP may want to go through and double verify that all the speakers are either in phase OR go through the balance and fader to see if he does indeed have midbass from his speakers and needs to wire one out of phase due to cancellations he may be having when it reaches his ears. He mentioned that he had to turn his subs up to 250hz in order for it to sound good. That sounds to me like the rest of the speakers are either crossed over incorrectly and not able to play midbass frequencies or he has some MAD cancellation going on in that truck.

Just my .02

[wutang512 3]

Ok let me get this straight since im going active pretty soon with a 9887 and 100.4D Sundown

For mid bass i would High pass on the Deck 80hz and up

and then from my amp i should low pass 500hz and below

thats basically bandpass correct?

then for my tweeters just 3.5khz and up HighPass

Am i doing this right?

Edited June 30, 2010 by wutang512

[Cant Get Enough 6]

Ok let me get this straight since im going active pretty soon with a 9887 and 100.4D Sundown

For mid bass i would High pass on the Deck 80hz and up

and then from my amp i should low pass 500hz and below

thats basically bandpass correct?

then for my tweeters just 3.5khz and up HighPass

Am i doing this right?

Depends on the frequency response on your tweeter snd your midbass driver If your using a dedicated 8 I wouldn't go higher than neccessary the higher you go the more directional the speaker becomes thats why door speakers generally handle midbass so it's placed in the stereo image, front, rear, left, right so the listener is unable to dicern direction

thats basically what a bandpass does I have recording Eq's that'll bandpass with one unit I never done it in a car though but you could use a bass blocker at like 60 Hz and set your LP at your desired frequency

Edited June 30, 2010 by Cant Get Enough

[wutang512 3]

Ok let me get this straight since im going active pretty soon with a 9887 and 100.4D Sundown

For mid bass i would High pass on the Deck 80hz and up

and then from my amp i should low pass 500hz and below

thats basically bandpass correct?

then for my tweeters just 3.5khz and up HighPass

Am i doing this right?

Depends on the frequency response on your tweeter snd your midbass driver If your using a dedicated 8 I wouldn't go higher than neccessary the higher you go the more directional the speaker becomes thats why door speakers generally handle midbass so it's placed in the stereo image, front, rear, left, right so the listener is unable to dicern direction

thats basically what a bandpass does I have recording Eq's that'll bandpass with one unit I never done it in a car though but you could use a bass blocker at like 60 Hz and set your LP at your desired frequency

I guess ill get a lil more specific then....

these peerless midbasses crossed from 80hz to about 400hz

Peerless 830946 SLS 6.5" Woofer - 4 ohm from Madisound

then these seas prestige tweet crossed at 3khz

SEAS Prestige 27TFFNC/G (H1396) 1" Textile Dome Tweeter from Madisound

[Cant Get Enough 6]

Ok let me get this straight since im going active pretty soon with a 9887 and 100.4D Sundown

For mid bass i would High pass on the Deck 80hz and up

and then from my amp i should low pass 500hz and below

thats basically bandpass correct?

then for my tweeters just 3.5khz and up HighPass

Am i doing this right?

Depends on the frequency response on your tweeter snd your midbass driver If your using a dedicated 8 I wouldn't go higher than neccessary the higher you go the more directional the speaker becomes thats why door speakers generally handle midbass so it's placed in the stereo image, front, rear, left, right so the listener is unable to dicern direction

thats basically what a bandpass does I have recording Eq's that'll bandpass with one unit I never done it in a car though but you could use a bass blocker at like 60 Hz and set your LP at your desired frequency

I guess ill get a lil more specific then....

these peerless midbasses crossed from 80hz to about 400hz

Peerless 830946 SLS 6.5" Woofer - 4 ohm from Madisound

then these seas prestige tweet crossed at 3khz

SEAS Prestige 27TFFNC/G (H1396) 1" Textile Dome Tweeter from Madisound

what speaker is filling in the gap between 400 Hz and 3 Khz?

Thanks for the link I was looking for a site that sold 2" fullrange so I can put a center channel in my AC vents.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Cant Get Enough

[wutang512 3]

Ok let me get this straight since im going active pretty soon with a 9887 and 100.4D Sundown

For mid bass i would High pass on the Deck 80hz and up

and then from my amp i should low pass 500hz and below

thats basically bandpass correct?

then for my tweeters just 3.5khz and up HighPass

Am i doing this right?

Depends on the frequency response on your tweeter snd your midbass driver If your using a dedicated 8 I wouldn't go higher than neccessary the higher you go the more directional the speaker becomes thats why door speakers generally handle midbass so it's placed in the stereo image, front, rear, left, right so the listener is unable to dicern direction

thats basically what a bandpass does I have recording Eq's that'll bandpass with one unit I never done it in a car though but you could use a bass blocker at like 60 Hz and set your LP at your desired frequency

I guess ill get a lil more specific then....

these peerless midbasses crossed from 80hz to about 400hz

Peerless 830946 SLS 6.5" Woofer - 4 ohm from Madisound

then these seas prestige tweet crossed at 3khz

SEAS Prestige 27TFFNC/G (H1396) 1" Textile Dome Tweeter from Madisound

what speaker is filling in the gap between 400 Hz and 3 kHZ?

and thats the problem that comes into play I dont wanna have to cut my doors some more to add a midrange so what should i do?

[Cant Get Enough 6]

You'll have to get a better or flatter response speaker that'll handle a fuller range

[wutang512 3]

You'll have to get a better or flatter response speaker that'll handle a fuller range

And what would you reccomend in a $200 budget for both tweeters and midbasses

[cvame 0]

I triple checked the wireing on all speakers and amps and deck for phase, bad wires, bad grounds,shorts etc... ive listened to the speakers with the subs off, they have very very little bass. They have awesome clarity though, just minimal bass...way less than stock speakers. I have them crossed over with the supplied box it came with.

[Impious 1,476]

I use the crossovers supplied for the speakers for controlling the frequencies between the 6.5's and the tweets then my HU has a high pass shelf which I set at 80 Hz cause 55 Hz for the passive is a little too low for the gain level I wan't to set with my T6004 that I set too all pass but if you dont have an HU with a shelf you could use the amps crossover.

There is a specific type of filter that is called a "shelf", and it is different than a standard HPF or LPF. I would be seriously surprised if your HU included an actual shelf filter. In fact I'd be very interested in know what HU that was as I don't know of any, and very few car audio processors actually have shelving capabilities.

The graph of a standard HPF or LPF look like a gently rolling hill; a shelf filter looks like, well, a shelf (hence the name).

DEH-P7200HD also a shelf will have a slope just depends how it's programmed soft knee or hard knee octave (Q) and decibals are all contributing factors.

LPF and HPF are shelving filters they are basically true curve EQ's that turn down to "infinity"

Also if you have a right angle shelf or cutoff point it will sound unatural and unpleasent, slopes are a must with shelves

Since I have a recording and mixing backgroud been doing it for 7 years narrow definitions are a must This is where my understanding comes from.

There are highpass shelving filters and lowpass shelving filters, but they are not the same as a "standard" highpass and lowpass filter. Your HU has highpass and lowpass filters, not shelving filters. The two should not be confused.

Example of a Lowpass filter;

Example of a Lowpass shelving filter;

[Impious 1,476]

I triple checked the wireing on all speakers and amps and deck for phase, bad wires, bad grounds,shorts etc... ive listened to the speakers with the subs off, they have very very little bass. They have awesome clarity though, just minimal bass...way less than stock speakers. I have them crossed over with the supplied box it came with.

Alton brought up a good point with the phase.

There are two different types of phase; Relative phase and absolute phase. The wiring of the speakers (having the positive wire from the amp connected to the positive terminal on the speaker) is relative phase. How the sound waves interact at the listening position (the "peak" of the soundwave from one speaker and the "peak" of the sound wave from the 2nd speaker both arriving at the listening position at the same time) is absolute phase.

Relative phase isn't important. What we want is the speakers to be in absolute phase. Achieving this may require that we wire the speakers out of relative phase (reverse the polarity of one speaker relative to the other). Or, in other words, try reversing the speaker wires on one of the mids. Instead of connecting positive from the amp or crossover to positive on the speaker, try connecting the positive wire from the amp or crossover to the negative speaker terminal (and neg from the amp/crossover to pos on the speaker). This may help put the speakers in absolute phase in the midbass frequencies at the listening position, improving response.

One word about phase, though. Since all wavelengths are different, some frequencies will be out of absolute phase while others will be in absolute phase. And reversing relative polarity will cause some frequencies to now be out of absolute phase while others will now be in absolute phase. This is one of the allures to using a 3-way front stage....you can wire the midranges out of relative phase without affecting the midbass (or vise versa).

So, long story short.....just because all of the positives are wired to all of the positives doesn't mean everything is "in phase" when it reaches your head

Unless I've still missed it.....where are your mids currently highpass? The crossover that comes with the speaker only handles lowpassing the mid, not highpassing it.

[Impious 1,476]

You'll have to get a better or flatter response speaker that'll handle a fuller range

And what would you reccomend in a $200 budget for both tweeters and midbasses

It would be better to have this conversation in another thread of your own making

[cvame 0]

So, long story short.....just because all of the positives are wired to all of the positives doesn't mean everything is "in phase" when it reaches your head

Unless I've still missed it.....where are your mids currently highpass? The crossover that comes with the speaker only handles lowpassing the mid, not highpassing it.

I reversed the polarity on one side of the components at the amp ( with the subs off) there was minimal difference, to me at least. When i open a door and stand outside of the truck there is no real midbass sound. You can hear the bassline in the music of course, but it sounds like a 6x9 with "bass blockers" on it. The supplied crossover doesnt have any adjustments on the mid side. According to the spec sheet the frequency response for the mid is "55Hz - 22kHz". There is nothing that ive found showing what the frequency of the crossover is.

I have the filter on the 4channel amp set to "All Pass", and the Deck EQ Bass level maxed at 6 (mids at 5, Hi's at 6.)

[Impious 1,476]

So, long story short.....just because all of the positives are wired to all of the positives doesn't mean everything is "in phase" when it reaches your head

Unless I've still missed it.....where are your mids currently highpass? The crossover that comes with the speaker only handles lowpassing the mid, not highpassing it.

I reversed the polarity on one side of the components at the amp ( with the subs off) there was minimal difference, to me at least. When i open a door and stand outside of the truck there is no real midbass sound. You can hear the bassline in the music of course, but it sounds like a 6x9 with "bass blockers" on it. The supplied crossover doesnt have any adjustments on the mid side. According to the spec sheet the frequency response for the mid is "55Hz - 22kHz". There is nothing that ive found showing what the frequency of the crossover is.

I have the filter on the 4channel amp set to "All Pass", and the Deck EQ Bass level maxed at 6 (mids at 5, Hi's at 6.)

It won't tell you what the frequency of the highpass crossover for the midwoofer is because it doesn't have one. You need to highpass the midwoofer either via the amplifier's crossover or the HU's crossover.

Set the crossover on the amplifier to "highpass" instead of "allpass" and set the crossover frequency unless if you are using a highpass crossover in your headunit. The headunit might not have one, but if it does then you need to look and see what it is set to.

What headunit do you have?

[cvame 0]

Impious - Its a JVC KW-XG700. On the first page after you asked me to give you all the info on my set up, i listed everything the way it is now. Its a long post, i could repost it again if you'd like me too?

I just had a thought, could the ground loop isolators or the line driver be having have a negative effect on the sound, specifically the midbass frequencies?

I will go outside now and switch the filter settings around, i never thought of that because of the in line crossover.... Glad im asking these questions here, thank you.

[cvame 0]

@ Impious - I forgot to include the crossover settings on the 4channel, which while i was doing the HP switching you advised, i noticed that the settings were changed all around. I think "little fingers" must of been playing with them. The amp has pass filters, a 0db - 6db bass boost, and a 32Hz -80Hz-320Hz crossover dial for each side. I turned the bass boosts to 0db and the crossovers in the middle of 80Hz & 320Hz,. I set the pass filters back to Full, because at HP there was no bass at all. With the adjustments now matching on both sides it sounds much better. Still not as much bass as stock speakers, but much better quality.

[KU40 173]

If you have subs, they should be playing up to 60-80 hz. So the highpass for the midbass should be around those numbers as well. If you have the midbass highpassed at 200 hz (half of 80 and 320), you're missing a ton of midbass. Turn that to 80 or so.

[Impious 1,476]

Indeed, sounds like you need to decrease the frequency for the highpass crossover.

[cvame 0]

If you have subs, they should be playing up to 60-80 hz. So the highpass for the midbass should be around those numbers as well. If you have the midbass highpassed at 200 hz (half of 80 and 320), you're missing a ton of midbass. Turn that to 80 or so.

What about when the filter is set at "All Pass" and the crossover set at 80Hz. Which direction will the crossover work, up or down? Or will it even work at all? Does the "all pass" filter setting turn the amps cross over off?