peerless 6.5" sls midbass

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Are you listening to the mids by them selfs? Do you hear the db drop in these frequencys? What difference in sound did you find being mounted in the door and the test box?

AS far as my opinion of the aura's, I honestly was pretty happy with the sound they gave the music. I should of took more time fine tuning them before driving them so hard but live and learn. They blended really well crossed from 50 to 400 with a 12 db slope, but I should of had a steeper slope down low for wanging on them. They could of easly played higher.The only way I could pick them out of the sound was to turn them down. They where more on the sterile side which I think is why I kept wanting to lower the slope so I could pick them out, otherwize they where clean sounding and really added the warmth I am after. I may still buy another Aura and give them one more chance. remember I am a novice so take subjectivly.

Other than that you see where I am at on my thread. I downloaded test tones today for reference testing. I am really working on what I did wrong to pop the one Aura before I really start looking for replacements.

[sandt38 448]

So you have the full range driver running at 250 hertz and the midbass running to 500? There is the reason for muddieness when you raised the crossover point to 500Hz. You are likely having serious cancellation issues for one thing. Also, the sterility down low is due to one of a couple things... The low QTS, and/or cancellation. Cancellation could be occurring because of the door rattle or the phase relationship between the 2 midbass drivers, or possibly due to the relationship between the overlapping midrange to midbass frequencies, coupled with their issues that revolve around multiple pointsources. One big thing I see in your previous install that you liked is a BIG deal. It is something i NEVER take for granted. Even if i will be forced to suffer some shortcomings brought about based on the install, I always, always, always want my front stage drivers right on top of each other. I want a single pointsource. The benefits are simply overwealming, with regards to image, and realism.

Why do you think that all home speaker arrangements are based on this platform? By keeping the drivers close you accomplish 2 things. One, the phase relationship on each side is really damn close. And second, when i am listening to a guitar or a female vocal I don't notice the vocal or instrument plays half down below my eyes, and the other half above my dashboard. We can work this by angling the tweeters, and admittedly I may manipulate the pillar a bit with some heat, or I may just go ahead and try another attempt at glassing... and admittedly I really suck a fat bag at glassing... I hate it. But the Mille's midrange is frikken sexy when tubes open them up.

If the door is rattling you need to address this area first. Also, you need to be sure the airspace behind the driver is completely close off from the front of the driver. Next, if that doesn't clean things up, try swapping the terminals on the passenger side driver. While this is not going to truly fix a phase issue, it will get us heading in the right direction. One other thought, a little out of order, try to steepen the upper crossover rolloff, say from 12db to 18db or even 24db per octave. Once the SLS gets to about 600Hz it rolls off pretty quickly, but it peaks again. Slow slopes may be introducing the driver's weekpoint. Keep in mind that the crossover cut off is not immediate, it is gradual. If you start a 11DB slope at 500Hz, and the driver is delivering 112DB, the driver will still be delivering 100DB at 1000Hz, and 88DB at 2000Hz... still fairly significant. The same set up with an 18db slope @ 500Hz with the driver delivering the same 112DB will see an output of 94Db at 1000 Hz and then the driver is delivering 76Db at 2000Hz,,, Likewise a 24Db slope at 500Hz with the driver delivering 112DB will see an output of 87db at 1000Hz and 63Hz at 2000Hz. The numbers look significant in that regard, but consider 3DB is 1/2 the measured DB readings and 6 is a perceived DB shift of 1/2.

Now, back to those drivers on the dash... The fairly high inductance makes me believe these things are rather muddy and disoriented up top. Further, the simply do not have the displacement needed to keep up with the midbass drivers. Third, up high like that you are also suffering a ton of refraction, creating phase relationship issues all over the place, as well as excessive brightening of the upper treble region. I might try cleaning some of this up, just for testing sake, by getting several towels out and covering your dash, windows, and a pillars... basically any hard reflective surfaces near the drivers. Be sure to do this when you are testing out the things I suggest, so as to help eliminate them as being an issue... or at least reducing the effect their shortcomings may have on the rest of the system.

My thought is, fix the rattle issue, seal off the front of the driver from the rear, and play with phase relationships. You might be able to try building an aperiodic membrane to house the rear of the drivers. I have seen people use a couple sections of screen and sandwich a bunch of polyfil in between them, then cover the back of the drivers. Maybe that will give you a bit more perceived midbass impact.

I am thinking that since the SLS is a very good driver for your intended application, you should really try working on the details surrounding it that are more likely the issue then the driver... you know, spend less money, but at the same time you will be getting an education on how to manipulate speakers, isolate issues, and how the surroundings affect the way the speaker behaves in an installation. There is no guarantee that the driver itself is not the issue. It is a fairly linear driver with a low total Q, making it fairly sterile. I like to say drivers like this evoke emotion more then aggressive impact, but it has decent displacement and output... fairly common among drivers several time's it's cost. But reproduction is objective and one's personal enjoyment of the reproduced music is subjective.

[cobra93 47]

Are you listening to the mids by them selfs? Do you hear the db drop in these frequencys? What difference in sound did you find being mounted in the door and the test box?

AS far as my opinion of the aura's, I honestly was pretty happy with the sound they gave the music. I should of took more time fine tuning them before driving them so hard but live and learn. They blended really well crossed from 50 to 400 with a 12 db slope, but I should of had a steeper slope down low for wanging on them. They could of easly played higher.The only way I could pick them out of the sound was to turn them down. They where more on the sterile side which I think is why I kept wanting to lower the slope so I could pick them out, otherwize they where clean sounding and really added the warmth I am after. I may still buy another Aura and give them one more chance. remember I am a novice so take subjectivly.

Other than that you see where I am at on my thread. I downloaded test tones today for reference testing. I am really working on what I did wrong to pop the one Aura before I really start looking for replacements.

I am also a novice, I'm learning. Thanks for your subjective description. I'm surprised they played that high and sounded good.

Yes i turned the fr88's off, that's when I thought I was trying to play the sls's too high. When I crossed them low enough to remove the vocals they were no longer complimenting the fr 88's.

When I put them in the door versus the box the box sounded louder and cleaner despite the fact that they were farther from the boundaries of the car( the enclosure is 9 1/2" deep x 8"wide x 16" tall). As I said they are subs and in that aspect they do a wonderful job at being sub's.

There "comfort" zone seems to be below what I'd like them to excel at.

The best way I can describe them is like the difference between a 8" kicker comp vr and a jl 8w3 v2 I had mounted in the door enclosures (93 cobra) I posted above. The comp vr's did a great job of producing bass, but the jl's were more musical while producing bass.

Edited July 11, 2010 by cobra93

[cobra93 47]

So you have the full range driver running at 250 hertz and the midbass running to 500? There is the reason for muddieness when you raised the crossover point to 500Hz. You are likely having serious cancellation issues for one thing. Also, the sterility down low is due to one of a couple things... The low QTS, and/or cancellation. Cancellation could be occurring because of the door rattle or the phase relationship between the 2 midbass drivers, or possibly due to the relationship between the overlapping midrange to midbass frequencies, coupled with their issues that revolve around multiple pointsources. One big thing I see in your previous install that you liked is a BIG deal. It is something i NEVER take for granted. Even if i will be forced to suffer some shortcomings brought about based on the install, I always, always, always want my front stage drivers right on top of each other. I want a single pointsource. The benefits are simply overwealming, with regards to image, and realism.

Why do you think that all home speaker arrangements are based on this platform? By keeping the drivers close you accomplish 2 things. One, the phase relationship on each side is really damn close. And second, when i am listening to a guitar or a female vocal I don't notice the vocal or instrument plays half down below my eyes, and the other half above my dashboard. We can work this by angling the tweeters, and admittedly I may manipulate the pillar a bit with some heat, or I may just go ahead and try another attempt at glassing... and admittedly I really suck a fat bag at glassing... I hate it. But the Mille's midrange is frikken sexy when tubes open them up.

If the door is rattling you need to address this area first. Also, you need to be sure the airspace behind the driver is completely close off from the front of the driver. Next, if that doesn't clean things up, try swapping the terminals on the passenger side driver. While this is not going to truly fix a phase issue, it will get us heading in the right direction. One other thought, a little out of order, try to steepen the upper crossover rolloff, say from 12db to 18db or even 24db per octave. Once the SLS gets to about 600Hz it rolls off pretty quickly, but it peaks again. Slow slopes may be introducing the driver's weekpoint. Keep in mind that the crossover cut off is not immediate, it is gradual. If you start a 11DB slope at 500Hz, and the driver is delivering 112DB, the driver will still be delivering 100DB at 1000Hz, and 88DB at 2000Hz... still fairly significant. The same set up with an 18db slope @ 500Hz with the driver delivering the same 112DB will see an output of 94Db at 1000 Hz and then the driver is delivering 76Db at 2000Hz,,, Likewise a 24Db slope at 500Hz with the driver delivering 112DB will see an output of 87db at 1000Hz and 63Hz at 2000Hz. The numbers look significant in that regard, but consider 3DB is 1/2 the measured DB readings and 6 is a perceived DB shift of 1/2.

Now, back to those drivers on the dash... The fairly high inductance makes me believe these things are rather muddy and disoriented up top. Further, the simply do not have the displacement needed to keep up with the midbass drivers. Third, up high like that you are also suffering a ton of refraction, creating phase relationship issues all over the place, as well as excessive brightening of the upper treble region. I might try cleaning some of this up, just for testing sake, by getting several towels out and covering your dash, windows, and a pillars... basically any hard reflective surfaces near the drivers. Be sure to do this when you are testing out the things I suggest, so as to help eliminate them as being an issue... or at least reducing the effect their shortcomings may have on the rest of the system.

My thought is, fix the rattle issue, seal off the front of the driver from the rear, and play with phase relationships. You might be able to try building an aperiodic membrane to house the rear of the drivers. I have seen people use a couple sections of screen and sandwich a bunch of polyfil in between them, then cover the back of the drivers. Maybe that will give you a bit more perceived midbass impact.

I am thinking that since the SLS is a very good driver for your intended application, you should really try working on the details surrounding it that are more likely the issue then the driver... you know, spend less money, but at the same time you will be getting an education on how to manipulate speakers, isolate issues, and how the surroundings affect the way the speaker behaves in an installation. There is no guarantee that the driver itself is not the issue. It is a fairly linear driver with a low total Q, making it fairly sterile. I like to say drivers like this evoke emotion more then aggressive impact, but it has decent displacement and output... fairly common among drivers several time's it's cost. But reproduction is objective and one's personal enjoyment of the reproduced music is subjective.

This is the exact reason for placing an enclosure in the door, vibration. The mirrors don't shake in my cobra due to the sealed enclosure.

I currently have the fr88's running off a coustic 240 se amplifier, its crossover only goes up to 200 hertz (12db per octive I believe). The sundown 125.2 also has a 12db per octive. I'd prefer an option of 24 db per octive.

I didn't realize (until I used a dmm to set the crossover on the 125.2) that on a 12 db per octive slope you are really covering a large frequency range to hit your crossover point (reading output voltage).

Your referring to the sls's as sterile, that's probably the word I've been looking for all along.

I have to say it, jl audio makes some nice equipment (if you haven't already guessed, I do like). The one thing I really like is there crossovers ( adjustable slope and the ability to nail a frequency by counting the clicks on the dial).

With everything else I feel like I'm guessing.

If I'm looking at a 200 hertz low pass, maybe I'll pickup another 500/1 (2 - 500/1's in a dual mono setup). That would give me plenty of power and I'd know what I'm getting before I buy it.

I'm just spitballing now. I'll try to run the sls's off the 500/1 (with a steeper slope, 24db per octive) sometime soon to see if that makes any difference.

Thanks for your time and thoughts.

One thought that keeps returning (in my limited use of different equipment) is that I can't recall a "long throw mid" ever sounding "quick" to my ears.

Even sub's, like the w7's always sound like "flubber" even before the start to distort. I've used wo's that sounded more crisp than the w7's, but they don't have the output (obviously).

[sandt38 448]

One thought that keeps returning (in my limited use of different equipment) is that I can't recall a "long throw mid" ever sounding "quick" to my ears.

Even sub's, like the w7's always sound like "flubber" even before the start to distort. I've used wo's that sounded more crisp than the w7's, but they don't have the output (obviously).

That isn't really because they are "Long throw" in as much as the long throw typically requires a longer coil in the gap. Most manufacturers tend to use the overhung coil, which is a long coil one that extends beyond both ends of the gap, as it maintains a pretty linear BL, and it also increases powerhandling. But the downside is this longer coil raises the inductance of the driver and driver speed is pretty much dependent upon it's inductance.

Here is a white paper on the subject... although it may be a bit over your head, you may gather some information on how a driver's function is affected by it's inductance.

http://adireaudio.com/Files/WooferSpeed.pdf

The W0s are not actually "crisper" drivers, they are actually more distorted drivers... That is they have less linear BL (motor force) and less linear CMS (suspension compliance), creating distortions that are actually pleasing to many listeners. I know a lot of people like to rag on the W7, but it is actually a pretty impressive driver, with regards to innovative design and linearity. Like I said in the other thread, most people actually like distortions in the subbass and midbass regions.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I am starting to have a better and better tuned ear and I recognize most novices are going to prefer the distortion. PLUS throw road noise into the equation and I really start to think things are missing in the 80-250 range. I have a few more spots to deaden/barrier and a couple body cavitys I am going to block with foam thats about as good on road noise as my poor honda is going to get short of buying quieter tires.

I am starting to understand where I went wrong with the Aura's. the shallow slope down low on the Aura was letting to much lows go throw the mid drivers at high volumes, and the over lap from the 15" BTL was not allowing me to hear the strain. I will take more time setting my slopes before even turning the sub on this time. PLUS I think I had too shallow of a slope on the crossovers thus creating the extra distortion/harmonics and my novice ear keep wanting that sound. BUT now that I am REALLY tuning in my ear and I am REALLY liking the cleaner sound with the 18db slope!!! I am starting to think I like the sterile sound alitte more now that I am stuck with the crappy 10" Sony subs I have in my doors right now.

I honestly think I may already be happy with the Q alignment I had with the Arua's IF i had the right xover settings. I came up with a Qtc of .5 in my current door volume of around 2 cu ft. I came up with a Q alignment in the .7 range in a .6 cu ft range SO I am thinking I am going to build a .6 cu ft sealed box and do some testing with the on good Aura. I think this will help me learn ALOT.

ALSO on another note, with the sub set to 50 hz with an 18db slope makes me hear a few rattles/buzzes I wasn't hearing before. I guess I'm not done sound proofing after all.

Sorry to thread jack your shit Cobra but I though you might find it relevent. And For you Seth if you are wondering about the thread I am refering to, heres a link. http://www.soundsolu...midbass-driver/

One last thing, Can I download the Box build Pro for free off the internet Or do I have to buy it?

[cobra93 47]

One thought that keeps returning (in my limited use of different equipment) is that I can't recall a "long throw mid" ever sounding "quick" to my ears.

Even sub's, like the w7's always sound like "flubber" even before the start to distort. I've used wo's that sounded more crisp than the w7's, but they don't have the output (obviously).

That isn't really because they are "Long throw" in as much as the long throw typically requires a longer coil in the gap. Most manufacturers tend to use the overhung coil, which is a long coil one that extends beyond both ends of the gap, as it maintains a pretty linear BL, and it also increases powerhandling. But the downside is this longer coil raises the inductance of the driver and driver speed is pretty much dependent upon it's inductance.

Here is a white paper on the subject... although it may be a bit over your head, you may gather some information on how a driver's function is affected by it's inductance.

http://adireaudio.com/Files/WooferSpeed.pdf

The W0s are not actually "crisper" drivers, they are actually more distorted drivers... That is they have less linear BL (motor force) and less linear CMS (suspension compliance), creating distortions that are actually pleasing to many listeners. I know a lot of people like to rag on the W7, but it is actually a pretty impressive driver, with regards to innovative design and linearity. Like I said in the other thread, most people actually like distortions in the subbass and midbass regions.

I never gave inductance a thought, I always envisioned the surround rippling something terrible. If I ever saw a slow motion video of a surround, like the w7, since I mentioned it, the image would probably give me chills when I leaned on it.

I reread my last post and allow me to correct myself, they have that "flubber" sound when pushed a little too hard.

I do agree the w7's are impressive sub's.

I'll give the sls's another shot, I just need to commit to change. I now have an o.k. system to go back to when I'm done testing for the day. I hate the thought of not liking the sound, then being in limbo until i can find something else to try.

Have you ever been stumped on a problem that you've been beating your head against the wall over, only to have someone walk up (with fresh eye's/perspective) and suggest something so obvious that you can't believe you didn't see it before?

The reason I ask is, maybe I need to change the fr88's to something that will play lower with more authority and blend better with the sls's (because they seem to do there job very well, I'm just using the wrong tool).

Before you and j-roadtatts responded to this thread I was flipping through madisounds catalog and was looking at these as an alternative.

peerless exclusive

I also considered these due to the price ( and the shorter x-max ) to see if it's all in my head or will they perform closer to the mids in my jl xr-650's (in snap, punch or quickness ) that I keep referring to.

For the price ($10.00) each. I wouldn't be out much. Who knows, maybe they'll give me a better perspective of what I want. I realize this is only a $10.00 speaker and I don't expect the to be the answer I'm looking for, but maybe they'll enlighten me.

peerless sds

Or these.

peerless hds

I hope you've subscribed, it could be a while before I post any opinions again, I'd like to bounce any results off you again.

Thanks again.

Edited July 11, 2010 by cobra93

[cobra93 47]

I am starting to have a better and better tuned ear and I recognize most novices are going to prefer the distortion. PLUS throw road noise into the equation and I really start to think things are missing in the 80-250 range. I have a few more spots to deaden/barrier and a couple body cavitys I am going to block with foam thats about as good on road noise as my poor honda is going to get short of buying quieter tires.

I am starting to understand where I went wrong with the Aura's. the shallow slope down low on the Aura was letting to much lows go throw the mid drivers at high volumes, and the over lap from the 15" BTL was not allowing me to hear the strain. I will take more time setting my slopes before even turning the sub on this time. PLUS I think I had too shallow of a slope on the crossovers thus creating the extra distortion/harmonics and my novice ear keep wanting that sound. BUT now that I am REALLY tuning in my ear and I am REALLY liking the cleaner sound with the 18db slope!!! I am starting to think I like the sterile sound alitte more now that I am stuck with the crappy 10" Sony subs I have in my doors right now.

I honestly think I may already be happy with the Q alignment I had with the Arua's IF i had the right xover settings. I came up with a Qtc of .5 in my current door volume of around 2 cu ft. I came up with a Q alignment in the .7 range in a .6 cu ft range SO I am thinking I am going to build a .6 cu ft sealed box and do some testing with the on good Aura. I think this will help me learn ALOT.

ALSO on another note, with the sub set to 50 hz with an 18db slope makes me hear a few rattles/buzzes I wasn't hearing before. I guess I'm not done sound proofing after all.

Sorry to thread jack your shit Cobra but I though you might find it relevent. And For you Seth if you are wondering about the thread I am refering to, heres a link. http://www.soundsolu...midbass-driver/

One last thing, Can I download the Box build Pro for free off the internet Or do I have to buy it?

You threadjacker!!!! :ban2: :ban2:

Just kidding j-roadtatts, I' m glad to get your input as well. The tangband's, fountek's and peerless drivers are my first attempt at stepping out of the ready made component/ coax speakers and I've got a lot to learn.

Your experience/descriptions are of help to me.

I have to agree on the sony subs, in fact when they went to the "xplod" line up it seemed to me as though they gave up, gave into the marketing bs of peak power ratings and such.

I still have a sony xm 7547 es amp that does ok, but doesn't compare to the quality of the jl slash amps I switched to.

Bass Box Pro 6 (harristech, HT-audio) > I bought that so long ago. It seems to do a good job, but I still will use a pencil and paper as a comparison.

I don't know if I'd buy it again ( winisd ) seems to give similar results, but BBP6 is "prettier". BBP6 also has a crossover network program in it, but I've never used it.

I don't believe you'll find it for free.

I have also found that I prefer a steeper crossover slope than 12 db per octive.

Edited July 11, 2010 by cobra93

[cobra93 47]

I'm not expecting a miracle. I had try see for myself, and for $10.00 a piece I thought, what the shit.

I ordered the peerless hds last night. So we'll see if there worth the money.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Hey, just wanted to link you a few things to read IF you haven't already.

http://caraudiomag.com/articles/mid-bass-response

If you only read part of the next link, make sure to atleast read PAGE 4.

http://www.reverse-engineering.info/Audio/bwl_eq_info.pdf

And here's a chart thats great for printing out and keeping in your tuning arsenal.

[cobra93 47]

Hey, just wanted to link you a few things to read IF you haven't already.

http://caraudiomag.com/articles/mid-bass-response

If you only read part of the next link, make sure to atleast read PAGE 4.

http://www.reverse-engineering.info/Audio/bwl_eq_info.pdf

And here's a chart thats great for printing out and keeping in your tuning arsenal.

Thanks J. I didn't read the link yet, but I did save a copy of the chart. Good looking out.

Edited July 15, 2010 by cobra93

[6APPEAL 7]

Corba, where are you at in Ohio? If I had paid attention to this thread I could have let you hear my Blues 6.5's when I was in Cincy. Keep plugging and you will figure it out. From looking at the pics, I have to wonder if the dash is causing some of your issues?

[cobra93 47]

Corba, where are you at in Ohio? If I had paid attention to this thread I could have let you hear my Blues 6.5's when I was in Cincy. Keep plugging and you will figure it out. From looking at the pics, I have to wonder if the dash is causing some of your issues?

I'm in Toledo, Cincinnati is still a ways away from me. I'm a couple of miles from the Michigan line.

Thanks for the thought.

I was hoping I would get around those types of issues by limiting the frequencies I'm playing the sls's at.

I'm pretty patient, I'm not giving up. I've got the cheap peerless hds's to try next, but I'm waiting to get the amp back from repair.

I realize the hds's aren't going to wow me, but they may enlighten me as to what I'm searching for.

I realize the title of my thread is no longer applicable, I'm not sure if I can edit it or not.

[sandt38 448]

You know, the metion of the Blues 6.5s made me think of the HAT Legatias, another small company started by SQ competitors.

http://www.hybrid-audio.com/products.htm

The Legatias have a really solid and somewhat aggressive midbass. I have never heard the Clarus series, but I understand they are solid as well.

I do have to forewarn you though, their off axis extension is greatly exaggerated. I have read people boasting favorable dispersion up to 4K... just not so. You just can't defy the laws of physics, and while they do very well with their phase plug, don't expect true off axis response much above 2.5KHz where beaming begins to occur.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

This is a great topic.

[Impious 1,476]

One thought that keeps returning (in my limited use of different equipment) is that I can't recall a "long throw mid" ever sounding "quick" to my ears.

Even sub's, like the w7's always sound like "flubber" even before the start to distort. I've used wo's that sounded more crisp than the w7's, but they don't have the output (obviously).

That isn't really because they are "Long throw" in as much as the long throw typically requires a longer coil in the gap. Most manufacturers tend to use the overhung coil, which is a long coil one that extends beyond both ends of the gap, as it maintains a pretty linear BL, and it also increases powerhandling. But the downside is this longer coil raises the inductance of the driver and driver speed is pretty much dependent upon it's inductance.

Here is a white paper on the subject... although it may be a bit over your head, you may gather some information on how a driver's function is affected by it's inductance.

http://adireaudio.co...WooferSpeed.pdf

The W0s are not actually "crisper" drivers, they are actually more distorted drivers... That is they have less linear BL (motor force) and less linear CMS (suspension compliance), creating distortions that are actually pleasing to many listeners. I know a lot of people like to rag on the W7, but it is actually a pretty impressive driver, with regards to innovative design and linearity. Like I said in the other thread, most people actually like distortions in the subbass and midbass regions.

A couple quick (no pun intended) additional points to mention;

Subbass frequencies are not "quick" frequencies. True subbass is not going to be "tight" and "crisp". It is, by it's very nature, slow and thick. When people attribute a subwoofer as being "tight" and "punchy", it's typically going to be because the subwoofer lacks sufficient low frequency extension/capabilities and/or a peak in the lower midbass frequencies giving it the appearance of being "quick". You can't make a 30hz note tight and crisp, properly reproduced it's simply not that type of tone. This is probably one of the reasons why you noted the "crispness" of the W0 in relation to the W7; The W7 has far more capability to reproduce the lower notes properly compared to the W0, so it was more correctly/strongly reproducing those slow, thick notes that the W0 probably lacked. And/or the W0 may have been a little more peaky in the lower midbass making it seem more tight and crisp simply as a function of it's frequency response.

If a subwoofer has a peak in the lower octaves then those tight/quick midbass frequencies are going to have comparatively less output which will make the driver seem less snappy, again simply as a function of it's frequency response. It's not that the driver lacks adequate output in the lower midbass, it's just overwhelmed by the amount of lower subbass output. This is a typical problem with the long-throw supersubs that have no problem reproducing the frequencies in the lower register. People use an enclosure designed for a low anechoic F3 which, when placed in a car, become extremely bottom-heavy. There was a lot of talk about drivers like the old Brahma lacking upper frequency response when the simple matter of fact was that there was no physical or electrical reason for this to be the case. The users were simply installing the drivers in an enclosure that overemphasised the low frequencies so that the upper bass was comparatively much lower in volume.

If you are noticing a trend, the issue is normally one of frequency response and not one of the actual ability to reproduce the tight/snappy/crisp frequencies. This same problem can be carried forward into midbass drivers. It could be that these long throw drivers are comparatively louder at lower frequencies where the lower-throw drivers weren't as capable which is making the snap/punch seem more subdued on the long-throw drivers. Also, Andy from JBL recently mentioned on DIYMA that snappy, punchy midbass depends also on flat response between 1kh - 4khz. This wasn't really something I had thought about before, but since reading that I've been spending more time really listening in my stereo and came to realize......he was right! If you look at that graph posted earlier you can see that the harmonics on many of the "snap" producing instruments extend into the several kilohertz range.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

One thought that keeps returning (in my limited use of different equipment) is that I can't recall a "long throw mid" ever sounding "quick" to my ears.

Even sub's, like the w7's always sound like "flubber" even before the start to distort. I've used wo's that sounded more crisp than the w7's, but they don't have the output (obviously).

That isn't really because they are "Long throw" in as much as the long throw typically requires a longer coil in the gap. Most manufacturers tend to use the overhung coil, which is a long coil one that extends beyond both ends of the gap, as it maintains a pretty linear BL, and it also increases powerhandling. But the downside is this longer coil raises the inductance of the driver and driver speed is pretty much dependent upon it's inductance.

Here is a white paper on the subject... although it may be a bit over your head, you may gather some information on how a driver's function is affected by it's inductance.

http://adireaudio.co...WooferSpeed.pdf

The W0s are not actually "crisper" drivers, they are actually more distorted drivers... That is they have less linear BL (motor force) and less linear CMS (suspension compliance), creating distortions that are actually pleasing to many listeners. I know a lot of people like to rag on the W7, but it is actually a pretty impressive driver, with regards to innovative design and linearity. Like I said in the other thread, most people actually like distortions in the subbass and midbass regions.

A couple quick (no pun intended) additional points to mention;

Subbass frequencies are not "quick" frequencies. True subbass is not going to be "tight" and "crisp". It is, by it's very nature, slow and thick. When people attribute a subwoofer as being "tight" and "punchy", it's typically going to be because the subwoofer lacks sufficient low frequency extension/capabilities and/or a peak in the lower midbass frequencies giving it the appearance of being "quick". You can't make a 30hz note tight and crisp, properly reproduced it's simply not that type of tone. This is probably one of the reasons why you noted the "crispness" of the W0 in relation to the W7; The W7 has far more capability to reproduce the lower notes properly compared to the W0, so it was more correctly/strongly reproducing those slow, thick notes that the W0 probably lacked. And/or the W0 may have been a little more peaky in the lower midbass making it seem more tight and crisp simply as a function of it's frequency response.

If a subwoofer has a peak in the lower octaves then those tight/quick midbass frequencies are going to have comparatively less output which will make the driver seem less snappy, again simply as a function of it's frequency response. It's not that the driver lacks adequate output in the lower midbass, it's just overwhelmed by the amount of lower subbass output. This is a typical problem with the long-throw supersubs that have no problem reproducing the frequencies in the lower register. People use an enclosure designed for a low anechoic F3 which, when placed in a car, become extremely bottom-heavy. There was a lot of talk about drivers like the old Brahma lacking upper frequency response when the simple matter of fact was that there was no physical or electrical reason for this to be the case. The users were simply installing the drivers in an enclosure that overemphasised the low frequencies so that the upper bass was comparatively much lower in volume.

If you are noticing a trend, the issue is normally one of frequency response and not one of the actual ability to reproduce the tight/snappy/crisp frequencies. This same problem can be carried forward into midbass drivers. It could be that these long throw drivers are comparatively louder at lower frequencies where the lower-throw drivers weren't as capable which is making the snap/punch seem more subdued on the long-throw drivers. Also, Andy from JBL recently mentioned on DIYMA that snappy, punchy midbass depends also on flat response between 1kh - 4khz. This wasn't really something I had thought about before, but since reading that I've been spending more time really listening in my stereo and came to realize......he was right! If you look at that graph posted earlier you can see that the harmonics on many of the "snap" producing instruments extend into the several kilohertz range.

You have a way with words Brad. You summed up everything I have learned about FR in the last few weeks in this one post.

[cobra93 47]

Define Irony as it applies to this thread: I have the peerless HDS's (which may be a step in the right direction as far as frequency response goes) and more people giving advice/helping, but no amp to test this theory.

Until I get my 125.2 back from repair I'm at a standstill.

Thanks goes out to Sandt38, j-roadtatts, Impious and 6appeal for all you help. I'll post back when I've had a chance to listen to the sls's and the hds's in a sealed box for comparison.

Edited July 18, 2010 by cobra93

[cobra93 47]

sandt38 > I've been reading about CDT audio the last few days (great things) and may consider doing a 3-way front stage. The way I've always justified spending that kind of cash of speakers is that I'll keep moving them from car to car, so no big loss.

I'll look into a 4" and a tweeter on the dash and see if I can swing it (size wise). If so, do you believe from what I've stated in this thread (with my 93 cobra install/products), that I'd like the sound of CDT products as I've no way to listen to them?

I realize you're just guessing as to what I like (due to my inability describe it clearly), but it seems as though "you've been around the block" and are better able to put into words a definitive description as to a speaker characteristics.

I'd be running them active.

There's nothing like being put on the spot, is there.

At this point I'm just looking for feedback, I am still undecided as to go "cheap" or "all in".

While the eclipse 8533 will give me time alignment that I don't have now, I'd prefer to have a head unit that would allow me to go active, or go the carputer route (this is still a gray area as far as the good bad). The pioneer head unit (DEX-P99RS) is around $1,200.00 and for that it should do more what it does. The clarion DRZ9255 could work ,but the crossovers (mid bass) don't seem to have the right range, I'll check the range again.

H-audio has some interesting products coming out soon, now that they've severed ties with fountek and so on.

I don't know, I guess I'm lost at the moment.

The only thing I'm sure of is, it's time for a change.

P.S. CDT really needs to stop saying they use stainless steal as a heat sink, nothing could be further from the truth.

P.P.S. I just downloaded the manual for the clarion and I'll read it tomorrow.

Edited July 19, 2010 by cobra93

[sandt38 448]

So you are looking into a 3 way set with the Peerless and CDT? The ES-04 is considered one of CDTs finest offering, but it comes at a price. It is a very high dollar midrange, but it is a high quality unit as well. Their DTR26 is a very nice tweeter module, and if you keep the tweeters down low like the JL install, I would recommend the DRT26A (the aluminum module). It is similar to the XR tweeter but it doesn't get muddy where the JL did on occasion. It does have a bit more shimmer then the XR does as well. But if you are going to be putting them up high, on the dash like where the extended range driver you have now is, I might suggest the silk module (DRT26S). The reason I suggest this is refraction off dashboards, windshields, and side windows can make hard dome tweeters very harsh. The DRT26 is a unit that you can actually pop the dome out to change just the dome from aluminum to silk, or titanium, depending on your tastes. If I were to go with a full CDT 3 way i would look into the ES-06+, ES-04, and the DRT26 with the dome module based on the info I provided above. The ES-06+ is a very dominant midbass driver, the ES-04 is a beautiful midrange and the DRT is a very sweet, accurate, and superb tweet.

I heard a lot of good about the more entry level CDT stuff, and I tried some and was disappointed. The midbass is excellent all the way down the line, very smooth and silky, but I am not a fan of their lower line tweeters, and the majority of their 2 way passive crossovers are absolute shit. They use really high crossover points and have a lot of beaming issues and muddy midrange issues because of them. Their marketing gimmicks like the ridiculous "effective" crossover slopes and imaging tweeters, etc. is a bunch of big box blind the n00b with complex terminology BS that needs to be ignored.

What I am saying is, you need to be careful. While they do have some nice gear, they have some real crap as well.

Now, the Hybrid Audio Technologies Legatia line offers a 2 or 3 way set that is completely active, so you could get a spankin' midbass, nice midrange and nice tweet without paying for the crossover. While I have not heard the 4" midrange what I have heard about it is positive.

There are so many other options out there as well.

[Adrian_D 520]

Now, the Hybrid Audio Technologies Legatia line offers a 2 or 3 way set that is completely active, so you could get a spankin' midbass, nice midrange and nice tweet without paying for the crossover. While I have not heard the 4" midrange what I have heard about it is positive.

There are so many other options out there as well.

After hearing the L4 and a couple other mids in the same install, I can't rate it high in price/performance

One option which seems hot now is to use a 3-4 inch fullrange and a midbass and simplify crossover needs, location and tuning.

[6APPEAL 7]

A couple quick (no pun intended) additional points to mention;

Subbass frequencies are not "quick" frequencies. True subbass is not going to be "tight" and "crisp". It is, by it's very nature, slow and thick. When people attribute a subwoofer as being "tight" and "punchy", it's typically going to be because the subwoofer lacks sufficient low frequency extension/capabilities and/or a peak in the lower midbass frequencies giving it the appearance of being "quick". You can't make a 30hz note tight and crisp, properly reproduced it's simply not that type of tone. This is probably one of the reasons why you noted the "crispness" of the W0 in relation to the W7; The W7 has far more capability to reproduce the lower notes properly compared to the W0, so it was more correctly/strongly reproducing those slow, thick notes that the W0 probably lacked. And/or the W0 may have been a little more peaky in the lower midbass making it seem more tight and crisp simply as a function of it's frequency response.

If a subwoofer has a peak in the lower octaves then those tight/quick midbass frequencies are going to have comparatively less output which will make the driver seem less snappy, again simply as a function of it's frequency response. It's not that the driver lacks adequate output in the lower midbass, it's just overwhelmed by the amount of lower subbass output. This is a typical problem with the long-throw supersubs that have no problem reproducing the frequencies in the lower register. People use an enclosure designed for a low anechoic F3 which, when placed in a car, become extremely bottom-heavy. There was a lot of talk about drivers like the old Brahma lacking upper frequency response when the simple matter of fact was that there was no physical or electrical reason for this to be the case. The users were simply installing the drivers in an enclosure that overemphasised the low frequencies so that the upper bass was comparatively much lower in volume.

If you are noticing a trend, the issue is normally one of frequency response and not one of the actual ability to reproduce the tight/snappy/crisp frequencies. This same problem can be carried forward into midbass drivers. It could be that these long throw drivers are comparatively louder at lower frequencies where the lower-throw drivers weren't as capable which is making the snap/punch seem more subdued on the long-throw drivers. Also, Andy from JBL recently mentioned on DIYMA that snappy, punchy midbass depends also on flat response between 1kh - 4khz. This wasn't really something I had thought about before, but since reading that I've been spending more time really listening in my stereo and came to realize......he was right! If you look at that graph posted earlier you can see that the harmonics on many of the "snap" producing instruments extend into the several kilohertz range.

Very well said Impious. It all goes back to the install.

I tried the Hybrid stuff prior to hearing the Blues prototyes. I tried a L6, L1Pro setup (passive and active) followed by a L8, L4, L1 Pro setup (all active and active/passive combo) and just could not get the blend/sound I was looking for. I will say that I was also just not willing to really cut my truck up to get to L8 to work better. And I probably could have put more time into tuning to tweak things out. But when I heard the 1st set of Blues prototypes, I pretty much paid for them on the spot. And each time I heard them, they just got better and better. I have not pulled my hair out trying to tune them either.

[cobra93 47]

So you are looking into a 3 way set with the Peerless and CDT? The ES-04 is considered one of CDTs finest offering, but it comes at a price. It is a very high dollar midrange, but it is a high quality unit as well. Their DTR26 is a very nice tweeter module, and if you keep the tweeters down low like the JL install, I would recommend the DRT26A (the aluminum module). It is similar to the XR tweeter but it doesn't get muddy where the JL did on occasion. It does have a bit more shimmer then the XR does as well. But if you are going to be putting them up high, on the dash like where the extended range driver you have now is, I might suggest the silk module (DRT26S). The reason I suggest this is refraction off dashboards, windshields, and side windows can make hard dome tweeters very harsh. The DRT26 is a unit that you can actually pop the dome out to change just the dome from aluminum to silk, or titanium, depending on your tastes. If I were to go with a full CDT 3 way i would look into the ES-06+, ES-04, and the DRT26 with the dome module based on the info I provided above. The ES-06+ is a very dominant midbass driver, the ES-04 is a beautiful midrange and the DRT is a very sweet, accurate, and superb tweet.

I heard a lot of good about the more entry level CDT stuff, and I tried some and was disappointed. The midbass is excellent all the way down the line, very smooth and silky, but I am not a fan of their lower line tweeters, and the majority of their 2 way passive crossovers are absolute shit. They use really high crossover points and have a lot of beaming issues and muddy midrange issues because of them. Their marketing gimmicks like the ridiculous "effective" crossover slopes and imaging tweeters, etc. is a bunch of big box blind the n00b with complex terminology BS that needs to be ignored.

What I am saying is, you need to be careful. While they do have some nice gear, they have some real crap as well.

Now, the Hybrid Audio Technologies Legatia line offers a 2 or 3 way set that is completely active, so you could get a spankin' midbass, nice midrange and nice tweet without paying for the crossover. While I have not heard the 4" midrange what I have heard about it is positive.

There are so many other options out there as well.

No, I was thinking of all CDT.

If I can fit a tweet/4" on the dash with 15* up/off axis (pointing at my dome light, only because it seemed to work best w the fr88's) and a 6"/7" in a a sealed enclosure in the door.

I was trying to ballpark a $$ amount if I went all CDT (as to which speakers you'd suggest). Looking at their website the ES-04 caught my eye, hence the 4"/tweet on the dash.

Which you confirmed is an excellent midrange.

That leads me back to the decision I have to make "cheap or all in", no one can make that decision for me, I realize that.

I like the sound of the fr88's overall, but they do seem to lack the "sparkle/airiness" without a tweeter.

I'll keep reading about the opinions/advice everybody has given so far, Thanks.

[sandt38 448]

After hearing the L4 and a couple other mids in the same install, I can't rate it high in price/performance

One option which seems hot now is to use a 3-4 inch fullrange and a midbass and simplify crossover needs, location and tuning.

That's disappointing. What was the other set in the same install? What was it you didn't like about the L4? I am curious as I have never actually heard it before, but I have heard very good things about it. I have heard the L6/L1 pro in a nice install, but never the L4. With that said, though, like I posted in another thread I seem to hear greatly exaggerated things about the Legatia set. A few people were talking about off axis dispersion clean to 4.5kHz, but no way... Beaming still occurs at ~2.5K no matter what you do with a 6.5" driver.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I vote all in if you've got the cake, simply because you will be happier with the results and the equipment will retain value better.