peerless 6.5" sls midbass

[cobra93 47]

I would like to know if you see any potential problems with mounting a peerless 6.5" mid bass speaker "in" the door pocket of my 2000 ranger.

I currently have jl audio xr 5 x 7's (coaxial) in the stock location in my doors. They image like crap ( no real surprise there, a lot of the time it's behind my head or at my feet ).

I've been playing with some T.B. W3's as well as some FR 88 ex's on the dash by the a pillars. I like the sound of the fr88's and am going to try going without tweeters.

I also bought 2 peerless 6.5" sls mid bass (830946), which I plan to put in the stock door location (red square in pic) to see if like them. If I do, I plan to get 2 more 6.5's and mount them behind the door pocket ( green square in the picture ).

The black "inner" door pocket will be removed from the door panel and should provide clearance for the 6.5" mid. I plan to cross the mid no higher than 250 - 300 Hz.

So my question is do you think it will sound correct or not being "in" the door pocket?

I don't want to have to fiberglass anything on the doors (been there done that, don't have the time now).

I have deadened the doors already ( entire truck )and will make a 1/4" thick steel panel to mount the speakers on, then weld them in the doors so they are as solid as I can make them.

They will be driven by a sundown 125.2 in stereo (2 ohm) and hopefully play in the 70 - 250 range with some authority.

Your thought's will be greatly appreciated.

Edited June 18, 2010 by cobra93

[BanginGMC 23]

If you're asking if speakers will sound good if they're not in the stock placement, then your answer is... it's install dependent.

Look into my build log, so far it's all about my doors. I had no stock speaker placement.

[cobra93 47]

I have been reading this forum long enough to understand that 95% is install and I appreciate your opinion.

However, the answer I'm looking for is with the speaker playing only the frequency range I've listed (70 - 250 hz.) sound odd playing most music in this location.

I don't believe it would sound wrong, but I'm not an expert.

Edited June 19, 2010 by cobra93

[Kanaworm$ 292]

They will fit with a little modification and fabrication!

Active front stage?

[cobra93 47]

double post, sorry.

Edited June 19, 2010 by cobra93

[cobra93 47]

I feel the need to clarify.

The mid bass speakers at the bottom of the door would be playing into the door pocket ( I am not planning to remove the gray portion of the door pocket ) and the sound would only be able to travel up to escape.

Would this color the sound? Would I now have a "band pass" enclosure due to the chamber ( pocket ) the speaker is playing into?

Oldskool_08 > yes, I'm going to try active. I"m currently using a Clarion HX-D10, but I have a BNIB Eclipse 8533 I could install and bring time alignment into the equation. I may go the carputer route eventually.

The fr88's will be driven by a jl 300/2

[onebadmonte 235]

To answer your question, will playing the speaker into the pocket color the sound? Yes. The solution, hack the panel. If you're already going through the effort of cutting a 1/4" plate of steel, then cutting the plastic panel should be a breeze. There are other means to make a clean door panel besides fiberglass. Here is a thought. The top line of the green box. Cut the whole bottom off of the panel using that line. Then cut a board to replace the panel you cut off, just cut it a little taller so it overlaps the remaining panel a bit. You'll have to figure out how to mount this board onto your door. I envision some bolts epoxied into the board as studs to mount onto the door with nuts and washers inside the door. Put a small step on the backside of the board where it overlaps the door panel so everything sits flat. Now you can mount your speakers on the board. Paint the board the color of the truck or you can upholster it to your liking. Hope this helps and good luck with your project. Post some pics what you do.

[cobra93 47]

O.K., I already know how to fit them in the door. I also already have a plan for the door panel, the piece of black plastic that makes up the inner door pocket is easily removed and won't change the appearance of the door panel.

I don't want to sound arrogant and I do value your opinions. I am willing to drill some holes in the pocket to allow sound ( air ) to escape. I want to keep the speakers protected. I have a plasma table at my disposal at work and cutting/ welding metal is quick and easy.

I don't want to get into painting or wrapping the panels.

onebadmonte > I suppose it would color the sound to some extant, but do you think it would be noticeable in the frequency I'd be using them in?

I am going to have 4 sundown sa-8's ( or 2 eclipse 88120 titanium dvc subwoofers ) behind me to pick up the bottom end ( or hammer if the need is felt ).

[onebadmonte 235]

O.K., I already know how to fit them in the door. I also already have a plan for the door panel, the piece of black plastic that makes up the inner door pocket is easily removed and won't change the appearance of the door panel.

I don't want to sound arrogant and I do value your opinions. I am willing to drill some holes in the pocket to allow sound ( air ) to escape. I want to keep the speakers protected. I have a plasma table at my disposal at work and cutting/ welding metal is quick and easy.

I don't want to get into painting or wrapping the panels.

onebadmonte > I suppose it would color the sound to some extant, but do you think it would be noticeable in the frequency I'd be using them in?

I am going to have 4 sundown sa-8's ( or 2 eclipse 88120 titanium dvc subwoofers ) behind me to pick up the bottom end ( or hammer if the need is felt ).

If you'll already have one 6.5 in the stock location (red square) a second in the door pocket (green square) isn't going to color the sound noticeably. If you want to get the full output of running a pair of mid-basses in the doors I'd mount them side by side with the cones fully exposed. Mid-bass unlike sub-bass can be localized.

[cobra93 47]

If you'll already have one 6.5 in the stock location (red square) a second in the door pocket (green square) isn't going to color the sound noticeably. If you want to get the full output of running a pair of mid-basses in the doors I'd mount them side by side with the cones fully exposed. Mid-bass unlike sub-bass can be localized.

onebadmonte: Thanks. I didn't think I'd install both sls's in each door and wind up thinking that that sounds like crap, but you never know.

Since you mentioned it, mounting them as close together as possible would be a better idea.

I seem to have less and less time to do stuff like this anymore.

I want to keep them behind the panel because my mom doesn't drive anymore. She's got ms, arthritis and her knees are shot, so when getting her in and out of the truck the doors and kick take a beating.

I think I'll try 1 pair in the stock speaker location ( hopefully next weekend ) and listen to the combination ( fr88's and sls's ) to see if I like it.

I'll look around for some used door panels and see what I can do as far as glassing and protecting as time allows.

Thanks for your thoughts, I appreciate them.

[cobra93 47]

I pulled my door panels today, removed the 5x7's, made up some 1/'2" mdf baffles to mount the 6 1/2" sls's. I had the fr88's on the dash crossed at around 200 hertz with about 30 watts. I ran the sls's off my sundown 125.2 and played around with the crossovers a bit.

I realize these are only 6 1/2 " speakers, but I guess I expected more from them. I'm used to having my 12" eclipse (88120 dvc, jl 500/1 ) playing up to a 78 hertz crossover point.

I'd imagine going without a sub for a week or so would allow me to appreciate them more.

The biggest problem I see is that they can barely keep up with the fr88's, that seems odd to me.

I sound deadened, vibration dampened and sealed my doors the best I can for now and as I said earlier I'd planned to run 4 sls's in total.

In the pic I posted (first post) the area forward of the window crank handle is open to use for an enclosure.

Madisound specs recommends a vented enclosure .4 c.f.. Maybe that would do the trick,...... I don't know.

I concerned if I start wailing on my sub I could tear these up and knot know it til it's too late.

Thought's , Opinions , Options ???

Edited June 27, 2010 by cobra93

[lithium 358]

my sls 8's took some time to loosen up and hit the harder. id just give them some break in time. also playing with xover points and phase might help.

[cobra93 47]

my sls 8's took some time to loosen up and hit the harder. id just give them some break in time. also playing with xover points and phase might help.

lithium : What do you mean by "loosen up to hit harder" ?

The reason I ask is the sls's 50 hertz with no problem (the door and mirrors shake like crazy), but the mid bass seems lacking (80 hertz on up, I'm ball parking that number).

I've been playing with BBP6 today and a .25 cf enclosure with a 2.5" port 7.85" long looks promising ( for 2- 830946sls's ).

That would give me a +3 db at 100 hertz, 0db gain at 75 hertz and an F3 of 68 hertz.

Theoretically I'd have a 6-9 db gain between adding power, cone area and being ported. Plus the doors vibrating and causing cancellation should be mostly eliminated.

[cobra93 47]

I put together a .3 cf enclosure tuned to 75 hertz over the 4ht. of July weekend ( for both sls's ). I put in the truck ( pass. side floor ) powered by my 125.2 . I have to admit they sounded very good, but I don't think they're what I'm looking for.

They play low very well, but seem to lack in the mid bass region ( or at least what I would consider mid bass ).

I'm looking for more "snap","quickness" and authority to them in the 80-250 hertz range.

They also sound muddy/inaccurate above around 200 - 250hertz.

I tried to do as much research on what to buy before I purchased the sls's, but everyone hears/likes different things.

The sls's were only $45.00 each so I thought what the hell I'll give them a shot.

So now I'm looking for some other suggestions/choices.

I listen to every type of music except for country, sorry I just can't .

I thought I'd recap my plans for the system.

2000 ford ranger extended cab

eclipse 8533 H/U ( I have a clarion hx-d10 in the truck at the moment ).

jl audio 300/2 driving a pair of fountek fr88's > crossed over around 250 hertz located on the dash at a pillars.

sundown 125.2 driving an undecided mid bass/woofer crossed around 75 - 250 hertz located in the doors ( possible sealed/vented enclosure, .25-.3 cf ).

sundown 2000d driving 4 sa-8's crossed 65-70 hertz in a 3.2 cf vented enclosure tuned to 32 hertz.

Edited July 7, 2010 by cobra93

[sandt38 448]

You want a spankin midbass driver?

What are you crossing these at (top end, not down low), how much power do you have on tap?

What are you looking for? A punchy, snappy midbass or a deep silky midbass?

[cobra93 47]

I restated my goals in the post above yours.

I want some snap and authority to them.

I'll be using a 125.2 for the moment.

I'm having a problem finding an amp with the proper band pass crossovers, but the sundown fit the bill, I just wish it had more power.

I'm planning on crossing them around 250-75 or 80 hertz.

Possibly ,due to my ignorance, my 125.2 is stuck in protection right now. So I'll see what comes of that soon.

I sent an e-mail to Jacob today and he's responded already, but he needed some clarification on what the amp is doing exactly. I trust he'll be fair with me. If I've learned one thing about him on these forums, it's he's a great guy to deal with when you (I) have a problem.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I'm tuned in.

Glad to hear you like the FR88's, I will probably give them a try soon.

[cobra93 47]

j-roadtatts, I'm glad you're tuned in, but I seem to be talking to myself.

onebadmonte, did confirm what I was thinking/hoping.

I have posted this same question on a different forum and received an answer that I didn't expect.

From Andy Wehmayer: posted by a$$hole.

Quote:

Snappy, punchy midbass depends on flat response between 1k and 4k. If you don't believe me, listen to your favorite midbass track on a pair of headphones through a 100Hz low pass filter. Then try 200 Hz. There's no snap or punch down there.

While I can understand what A$$hole is saying , I believe I have the higher octive frequencies, just not the authority to make it believable.

Nobody seems to want to give any advice.

I don't know what your aura'a sounded like but I bet they were impressive. Does anything I'm saying make sense to you?

Maybe I can learn from you.

BTW, I'm subscribed to your "looking for a mid bass" thread.

As for the fr88's, they do sound good to me. I have also played them back to back with the tangband w3 bamboo drivers and found the tb's sound better across the board until pushed. I have to dial out the 1000- 2500 hertz range for my ears with the fr88's. When pushed the top end does get a little ragged, but they still overpower 2 - 6 1/2" sls's. I don't know if that helps you at all, but they are cheap.

Edited July 9, 2010 by cobra93

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Sorry to take so long to get back, but I've been SUPER BUSY.

I HAlf agree with a$$hole in that the snappy sound is up higher, BUT i disagree with the punchy. I know these are subjective words, but to me I would describe 63 as kicky, 80 as punchy, and 80 to 200-250 as the warm, thick part of the music.

I agree with a$$hole in that the midbass and upper frequency ranges need to be in time with each other to create the preception that the cracks and snaps are coming from the same place as the kicks and punches.

I disagree with onebadmonte (sorry brother), but I DON"T think midbass is localizable up and down. I will quote Impious on this one:

"We localize midbass in the lateral plane only (i.e. left to right). We don't localize it on a vertical plane (high and low), and we don't localize it "front to back". "

"Midbass is localized by way of what's known as Interaural Time Difference (ITD). That is, the brain localizes midbass laterally due a difference in the time arrival of the sound wave between the left ear and right ear. ITD dominates our localization ques in the frequency bandwidth where the wavelengths of the soundwave are longer than the distance between our two ears. Generally the more ITD you can generate, the wider the potential imaging."

Where did you get the volume for your test box? Why ported?

[cobra93 47]

Sorry to take so long to get back, but I've been SUPER BUSY.

I HAlf agree with a$$hole in that the snappy sound is up higher, BUT i disagree with the punchy. I know these are subjective words, but to me I would describe 63 as kicky, 80 as punchy, and 80 to 200-250 as the warm part of the music.

I agree with a$$hole in that the midbass and upper frequency ranges need to be in time with each other to create the preception that the cracks and snaps are coming from the same place as the kicks and punhes.

I disagree with onebadmonte (sorry brother), but I DON"T think midbass is localizable up and down. I will quote Impious on this one:

"We localize midbass in the lateral plane only (i.e. left to right). We don't localize it on a vertical plane (high and low), and we don't localize it "front to back". "

"Midbass is localized by way of what's known as Interaural Time Difference (ITD). That is, the brain localizes midbass laterally due a difference in the time arrival of the sound wave between the left ear and right ear. ITD dominates our localization ques in the frequency bandwidth where the wavelengths of the soundwave are longer than the distance between our two ears. Generally the more ITD you can generate, the wider the potential imaging."

Where did you get the volume for your test box? Why ported?

Take your time, this is a work in progress.

Your quote from impious is the same thing I've read on diyma from Patrick Bateman. He has some very good threads, one of them includes ITD, and the cone of confusion.

From what I've read about mid bass, I agree with you and impious, which is why I chose a full range driver and a mid bass.

The xr-570's in my doors now keep dragging the imaging down to my feet.

It may not turn out as I expect, which it hasn't on my first attempt, but I'll keep trying.

I ran the sls's through Bass Box 6 Pro to get and idea of what I might expect from 2 (sls's) in each door after being disappointed by 1 mounted in each door on a 5/8" baffle.

I've used BB6P om many occasions for my sub's and have had very good results, I've also went pencil and paper with very good results.

I looked at the space I had available to me (.3cf in the door, the portion in front of the window in my first post) and thought if I port them they should sound cleaner at tuning and have more output, it was my hailmary to see if I could satisfy my needs.

The EBP of the sls's (106) suggest a vented alignment also.

I see you're eyeballing the exodus anarchy's in sandt38's thread, so was I.

Sorry, I didn't have time to organize my thoughts/responses, I'm kind of in a hurry/busy myself.

I'll be back on later tonight.When you have the time could you describe what your auras sounded like to you, I know subjective, but I curious to see how you phrase it. How well did they blend with your full range ff85k's?

Thanks again.

[sandt38 448]

I think something that is important is that you can't have even pathlengths in the car to your ears, so localization becomes almost impossible to avoid. I prefer to have everything on front of me that I can. If I could figure a way to get 3 feet of cabinet in my dash i would have my subs there too, but I can't. But, to mount them low in the doors shouldn't cause them to stage low, as midbass is not easily located on the vertical plane. I have a feeling that this localization is more likely an issue with your midrange crossover point, or perhaps something hindering the output of the driver... sorry, but I haven't seen any real info on your midrange or crossover points. Overlapping crossover points can create cancellation and possibly localization issues.

One thing to remember, EBP is a specification, or to be more accurate, a formula that you can't really use to determine midbass or midrange driver alignments. Based simply on their high FS they will always become "ported" favoring drivers.

I am getting the feeling that you are more interested in a smooth silky driver, rather then a dry driver. As I mentioned in the other post, I am not terribly certain that the Anarchy will fit the bill for what you are looking at. While i expect more output from it then the SLS, I expect it to be similar in regards to how dry it will perform.

Like I said in the other thread, you may want to be looking for more like a CDT ES-06 or perhaps a totally dedicated midbass driver like their ES-06+. Maybe Rainbow Pro-Fi Kicks...

But you need to work on sealing up the doors, and getting your crossover settings right.

It may be more helpful if you could get a single post with all the pertinent info in it. Crossover points, drivers, placement of the drivers including where they point to, how they are mounted (on an MDF panel, or direct to sheet metal, or plastic adapters, etc), HU settings, amplifier settings, any sound deadening, and EQ (if you have just low/mid/high settings on your HU, those settings as well please), phase of the drivers, and have you played with phase... stick everything you can think of in a single post, as I have a hard time searching the threads and keeping it all in order in my head as it is so random and disorganized. Pics of driver location and relation to panel openings would also be terribly helpful. Also, include information on all gear you have as well, model numbers and the like. It would be great if you could give us an idea of what kind of money you have budgeted to the whole midbass system, including but not limited to deadening, amplifier, and drivers. Finally, let us know if you can fabricate MDF rings or adapters, if you have any opposition to building aperiodic membranes for the drivers, etc.

I have a lot to do today, but I will try to help as best as i can either tonight, or maybe tomorrow...

[cobra93 47]

I think something that is important is that you can't have even pathlengths in the car to your ears, so localization becomes almost impossible to avoid. I prefer to have everything on front of me that I can. If I could figure a way to get 3 feet of cabinet in my dash i would have my subs there too, but I can't. But, to mount them low in the doors shouldn't cause them to stage low, as midbass is not easily located on the vertical plane. I have a feeling that this localization is more likely an issue with your midrange crossover point, or perhaps something hindering the output of the driver... sorry, but I haven't seen any real info on your midrange or crossover points. Overlapping crossover points can create cancellation and possibly localization issues.

One thing to remember, EBP is a specification, or to be more accurate, a formula that you can't really use to determine midbass or midrange driver alignments. Based simply on their high FS they will always become "ported" favoring drivers.

I am getting the feeling that you are more interested in a smooth silky driver, rather then a dry driver. As I mentioned in the other post, I am not terribly certain that the Anarchy will fit the bill for what you are looking at. While i expect more output from it then the SLS, I expect it to be similar in regards to how dry it will perform.

Like I said in the other thread, you may want to be looking for more like a CDT ES-06 or perhaps a totally dedicated midbass driver like their ES-06+. Maybe Rainbow Pro-Fi Kicks...

But you need to work on sealing up the doors, and getting your crossover settings right.

It may be more helpful if you could get a single post with all the pertinent info in it. Crossover points, drivers, placement of the drivers including where they point to, how they are mounted (on an MDF panel, or direct to sheet metal, or plastic adapters, etc), HU settings, amplifier settings, any sound deadening, and EQ (if you have just low/mid/high settings on your HU, those settings as well please), phase of the drivers, and have you played with phase... stick everything you can think of in a single post, as I have a hard time searching the threads and keeping it all in order in my head as it is so random and disorganized. Pics of driver location and relation to panel openings would also be terribly helpful. Also, include information on all gear you have as well, model numbers and the like. It would be great if you could give us an idea of what kind of money you have budgeted to the whole midbass system, including but not limited to deadening, amplifier, and drivers. Finally, let us know if you can fabricate MDF rings or adapters, if you have any opposition to building aperiodic membranes for the drivers, etc.

I have a lot to do today, but I will try to help as best as i can either tonight, or maybe tomorrow...

I'll work on getting some pics for you right now, as well as a post as you describe. It's going to be a long post, sorry for that. Thanks again.

[cobra93 47]

This is some background for you on what sounded pretty damn good to me.

1993 Ford Cobra production # 1540

hu> clarion hx d-10 (I ran the front rca's into a kicker kq5 to be able to adjust frequencies and volume to my front stage)

My link

front stage > jl audio 300/2 (80 hertz on up) to jl xr-650 separates (using passive crossover) in a small sealed kick pod

> jl audio 500/1 (75 - 40 hertz) driving jl audio 8w3 v2 subs in an aluminum/fiberglass sealed .25 cf enclosure

rear fill >none

sub > jl audio 1000/1 (75 - 28 hertz) driving (1) eclipse 88120 dvc titanium cone, 1.6 cf vented enclosure, tuned to 32 hertz.

I realize I was overlapping frequencies, but when I was hammering the eclipse I'd turn down the 8w3's so I didn't hurt them (with the kq5).

When I wanted a killer front stage/image I'd turn the eclipse down to blend with the 8w3's and let the 8w3's get some.

I was at a locale car stereo spl event and the salesman I dealt with sent the jl audio rep. over to hear my car.

He was in disbelief that I thought I needed to work on getting the imaging a little higher.

Here are 2 pics of that front stage, which had the snap/punch/kick that I'd like to achieve in my ranger

I listen to everything but country, it just doesn't do it for me.

Edited July 10, 2010 by cobra93

[sandt38 448]

I always loved the XR comps. The rubber surround aluminum dome tweets are sexy.

[cobra93 47]

sandt38 > On to the ranger, you asked for it, you got it.

2000 ranger extended cab

I have gone the cheap route in sound deadening. I used 2 layers of asphalt based deadening on the floor, roof,rear wall and doors ( inner and outer).

I followed that with sound barrier over top (2 layers in some places).

hu > eclipse 8533, I purchased this new and never installed it. dvd-audio never caught on, my loss.

eclipse 8533

front stage (subject to change) >fountek fr88ex full range (250 hertz and up) could change depending on mid bass/midrange I wind up using

driven by jl audio 300/2

mounted on the dash/a pillars, aimed at the dome light (15 degree's off axis for both seats).

I will be making some type of captured ball mount so I can aim them as I please. Think home theater satellite ceiling/wall mounts.

> Mid bass/midrange undecided, tried peerless 830946 6 1/2" sls's

driven by a sundown sax 125.2 ( 70 - 200/250 hertz). I purchased the amp mostly due to the crossovers (band pass options).

I have mounted the sls's to a 5/8" baffle covering the 5"x 7" openings in the doors (running 1 in each door in stereo).

The output ( above 80 hertz) didn't seem to be there, however below 80 hertz was better.

At this point the doors/mirrors were vibrating quite a bit. So now I'm thinking there's some cancellation going on.

I decided to build an enclosure for them and put them in the passenger side footwell.

I have about .3 cf to play with in the front of the doors. There is nothing behind the inner panel, no window or regulator and I have up to 5 1/2" of depth to play with.

I ran some different enclosures through BBP6 and found that a .3 cf vented alignment had a good response curve. Before you say it I know the measured response will change in the truck, but I had to start somewhere.

I ran 2 sls's in parallel (2 ohms mono, right side only) to give me a better idea of the out put I could expect with 4 total ( 2 in each door).

I now had more/cleaner output, but they still don't sound "punchy" or loud enough from 80 hertz on up.

They seem to be "muted" or "lazy" in the frequencies I was trying to enhance (80 - 250 hertz).

The low pass crossover allows me to go as high as 500 hertz, they sounded muddy as soon as there were any vocals being played.

I tested them with Steely Dan, Heather Headley, Bob James and David Sanborn, Michael McDonald, Avril Lavigne, Autograph,Tupac, Shaggy and Dire straits.

This music isn't very busy and they sounded pretty good, but when I played tracks from Evenessense, Killswitch Engage, Lincoln Park, Mudvane and even some Meatallica

There's a lot more going on at at the same time and I had to lower the low pass crossover point a lot.

Like I said I listen to everything and I could keep going, but you get the picture.

I tried reversing the phase and different crossover points, but nothing seemed to help.

I lost the 125.2 in the process of listening the second time around, I'm sending it in for repairs Monday.

sub stage > I purchased 4 sundown sa-8's that I'm putting in a 3.2 cf vented enclosure tuned to 32 hertz ( low passed ~ 70 hertz )

driven by a sundown saz 2000d. I have not heard these yet, I have 2 eclipse 88120 dvc titanium cones to fall back on if I don't like the sa-8's as I know what to expect from them.

sandt38 > Wow my head/ fingers hurt. Sorry for the long post, but I hope this gives you insight in to what i like sound wise and is enough information to make recommendations.

I'm not dead set on the fr88's or the sls's, I'm willing to try something else.

Here are some pics of the fr88's on the dash, don't mind the velcro, it's temporary.

My intention ( if I wind up going the mid bass route ) is to put one behind the factory grill and one behind the door pocket mounted in an enclosure ( sealed/ported ).