read these comments lol

[catwalk7382 0]

Edited May 30, 2010 by denim

[Impious 1,476]

With the w7 comparison I was thinking it'd only be fair for a 12w7 to be compared to the 12 xcon.

Fair enough.

Anyway, The 12w7 has 28mm xmax and the xcon has 31.

The 12W7 has an Xmax of 29mm. But Xmax by itself is irrelevant, since we are concerned with the total amount of air capable of being displaced linearly.....otherwise known as Vd.

Due to the design of the 12W7's cone and surround it has 542cm^2 of cone area compared to 480cm^2 on the Xcon.

So the 12W7 has a total Vd of 1.57L, whereas the Xcon as a Vd of 1.49L.

Displacement advantage: 12W7

How is higher power handling not a better spec? In a daily driver music setup I understand power handling capability is not everything, but If I had the choice I would prefer for a sub that has the potential to handle more power. Who knows, I might want to use it for other applications one day. A sub with more power handling capability would have versatility then. So higher power handling potential would always be a plus, unless it potentially sacrificed other aspects of the woofers performance.

A driver only needs to have enough power handling to achieve it's intended level of performance in it's intended application. Just because a driver wasn't intended for the application you desire is not a problem with the driver.....it's simply the wrong driver for the application. The Xcon wasn't designed to excel in sealed enclosures. Do I hold this against the Xcon, or simply decide instead to chose the proper driver for the application? The point being there are different applications, and no driver is going to excel at all of them. You are choosing to place significance on power handling for your own personal reasons.....not everybody does, nor should they. So while higher power handling may be a "plus" for your desired applications, it is irrelevant to most others.

Last, simply looking at rated power isn't really a valid means by which to even compare power handling capabilities. While the 12W7 may not be "rated" to handle the same amount of power and it may void the warranty, it's design may allow it to do so. So really, the entire topic is moot without more information about the actual ability of both drivers to actually sustain certain levels of power.......other than the fact that running a 12W7 @ 1750w will void your warranty.

Sensitivity, lets say there are two subs that have the exact same parameters. Except one of them has higher sensitivity than the other. Which would you buy? Can you explain to me why you wouldn't buy the more efficient driver?

Herein lies the problem.....you CAN NOT have two drivers with identical parameters other than sensitivity. It's not physically possible. So your hypothetical scenario is completely irrelevant as you can not "choose" an identical driver with higher sensitivity.

If you really want to know why sensitivity is NOT a "higher is better" type of specification, here is an article in the tech center that will help you understand the trade-offs associated with increasing sensitivity;

Subwoofer Sensitivity - SSA Car Audio Forum

In the SQ department, I said the Xcon imo has better SQ. What I stated was a truthful OPINION. The key words were "in my opinion"

Exactly. That's not evidence of anything other than your own personal opinion, which is irrelevant to the discussion of the performance of a driver.

Even then, we could question the validity of the experiences which you used to form your opinion. The performance of a driver is impacted more by the system, enclosure and environment than the actual driver itself. If your experiences with the W7 were heavily influenced by those factors (i.e. listening to a W7 in someone's vehicle, in a showroom, etc) then you honestly do not have enough experience with the W7 in order to form a valid conclusion and comparison of it's performance to any other driver.

So, have you ever compared the W7 to a Xcon in identical environments and identical alignments and identical systems in order to form a valid comparison of the two drivers subjective performance relative to each other? If the answer is no, then "your opinion" is quite simply irrelevant and your experiences are inconclusive. That says nothing negative about you personally, it's simply a matter of fact. All opinions are not equal, and all opinions are not valid. Despite popular belief, an opinion can indeed be wrong.....or atleast, be based on faulty information.

Anyway, here's some parameters of the xcon, 12w7 and the 2005 XXX 12. You know more than I do about audio so maybe you can enlighten me to which sub is superior on paper and why.....

T/S parameters are not a "superior/inferior" type of parameter. They simply describe the low frequency performance of a driver, which assists the user in determining which driver best suits their application or what application would be most appropriate for a certain driver. The only relevance T/S parameters have in a "superior/inferior" inference is with respect to a given application.

I guess the W7 is an Ungodly driver, I was wrong they can take a light socket like a champ.

Look at the video closer. They don't have the ring on the surround, which means the surround is not attached to the basket. It appears when they applied power the coil rocked as a result, which hit the gap and began to bounce around thereafter. That video doesn't show anything other than a broken driver doesn't function properly.

THIS is a prime example of the problem with the internet. People "see" something without fully analyzing the situation or circumstances and then use this misinformation to draw conclusions.

[mr.sagat 10]

I can't argue with you because like I stated you know more than I do.

In the vid they didn't have the surround on the basket? So the fact the cone should've stayed attached to the spider is irrelevant I guess. I've seen vids of subs free air wall socket burping without surrounds attached and they still didn't rip apart.

You're really confusing me with the whole parameter thing. You claim that drivers can't have superior or inferior parameters. I think that is only a partial truth.

Certain subs are made to perform better in certain applications. Why? Because those drivers have parameters that are better suited for that application.

I can't compare the parameters of a BTL and a w7 and come to the conclusion, the btl is superior.

But, if I know the intended use and install, I can look at the parameters and conclude which one has superior parameters for my intended application

If I was running a 500 watt sealed home audio setup, couldn't I conclude the w7 has superior parameters over the BTL for what I need?

So, it's kind of a gray area, but there would be superior/inferior parameters for everyone's install right?

[Impious 1,476]

In the vid they didn't have the surround on the basket? So the fact the cone should've stayed attached to the spider is irrelevant I guess. I've seen vids of subs free air wall socket burping without surrounds attached and they still didn't rip apart.

From what I can tell the former stayed attached to the spider, and the cone stayed attached to the former as well.

Another thing to consider is that the 13W7 has dual 1.5ohm coils. If they had wired the coils in parallel, that's a nominal .75ohm. Using basic ohms law, P = V^2/R, that would be 120^2/.75 or 19,200 watts of power to the 13w7. If someone takes a D2 sub and wires the coils in series, that's only 3600w to the driver. If someone takes a D4 driver with coils wired in series, that's only 1800w to the driver. Just because it's a wall socket doesn't mean two different drivers are seeing the same power....which leads me back the internet allowing ignorance to spread throughout the masses by uninformed users not considering all of the necessary information before drawing conclusions. MTX used to have a marketing campaign when they released the 9500 series based on this exact principle.....they showed a Solo X, W7 and 9500 being driven to failure while displaying the voltage each driver was receiving.....ofcourse the Solo X and W7 failed at lower voltages than the 9500.....but they never told you what they had each driver wired to impedance wise, which made it impossible to know which driver was actually receiving the most power.

Regardless, I think I've already stated on numerous times that the W7 wasn't intended to handle insane levels of power. If that is your desired application then yes, chose another subwoofer. Yes, there are subwoofers that handle more power than the W7. It doesn't make them better; just the same it doesn't make subwoofers that can't handle as much power as the W7 worse. The W7 is capable of more than the necessary amount of power it needs in order to perform at it's maximum in it's intended application. That's all any driver needs.

You're really confusing me with the whole parameter thing. You claim that drivers can't have superior or inferior parameters. I think that is only a partial truth.

Certain subs are made to perform better in certain applications. Why? Because those drivers have parameters that are better suited for that application.

Eh, isn't that exactly what I said?

T/S parameters are not a "superior/inferior" type of parameter. They simply describe the low frequency performance of a driver, which assists the user in determining which driver best suits their application or what application would be most appropriate for a certain driver. The only relevance T/S parameters have in a "superior/inferior" inference is with respect to a given application.

It appears I used the word "application" atleast 3 times, and the bolded sentence explicit says the only time T/S parameters can have a "superior/inferior" inference is in regards to a specific application.

but there would be superior/inferior parameters for everyone's install right?

For any given application, yes there are. That's exactly what the T/S parameters tell you.....how the driver will perform in a given application.

[akrod2as 2]

POWER ASCUKIT IS DA BES! JYEAH!

[mr.sagat 10]

Cool, thanks for further explaining to me in a decent manner. I know what you mean by manipulating vids, I remember seeing a whole lot of head to head tests comparing the orion hcca versus other super woofers. The only thing I learned from it was that the hcca has a beefier coil than most other woofers, that is if the ads were actually truthful, which I kind of doubt since it was a biased assessment. The ads made it out like the hcca couldn't be stopped, wouldn't be stopped. Here's one if them...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyA-SpwwqKU

Edited May 22, 2010 by mr.sagat

[Duran 387]

The HCCA has a 4" coil, in the same application it can take quite a bit more power

[mr.sagat 10]

The HCCA has a 4" coil, in the same application it can take quite a bit more power

I thought that thermal capability of the coil has more to do with the gauge of the windings, what coatings, the number of layers, and the metal used, than just the size. I could see a bigger coil dissipating more heat, which would make it marginally better. I have 4 inch voice coils in my optidrive subs, but the 3 inch coil in my xcon would handle more power before thermal failure.

[Duran 387]

Layers has a lot to do with it as well, but a normal 4" coil has MUCH more surface area than a normal 3" coil.