What happened to all the Xbl^2 mania??

[Dpaw37 0]

I ask this question running the risk of it possibly being an ignorant question, but ask it in unique interest nonetheless. Seems like when I got involved in forum browsing a while back all the hype surrounded motors utilizing xbl2 technology for their subs (adire, ascendant, re). I remember ascendant audio discontinuing the use of this tech. due to adire supposedly claiming the tech. was theirs and theirs alone to use blah blah this is all very vague.

My question is with so much I heard about xbl2 and the performance that gave it a name, I can't even find those letters mentioned together anywhere on the internet later than 2006?? Did it just die out lol I thnk you see what I mean. Please someone satisfy my curiousity with a little knowledge as I have asked myself this question quite a few times lately.

[Impious 1,476]

I remember ascendant audio discontinuing the use of this tech. due to adire supposedly claiming the tech. was theirs and theirs alone to use blah blah this is all very vague.

That's not what happened.

XBL^2 is Adire's (well, Dan's now) alone to use due to the patent they have on the technology. The reason Ascendant stopped using the technology was supposedly due to a comment Dan made on a forum that Chad didn't care for. Atleast I believe this was the public reason. I believe Chad even posted that as the reason on their website when they announced they were no longer going to be using the technology.

Basically someone on SIN I believe asked why someone should buy an Adire driver over an AA driver if they both have XBL and the AA is cheaper. Dan said not all drivers are created equal and just because they have the same motor technology that doesn't make them the same driver. Chad claimed he took this as an insult and slam on his company/products and used it was the reason for dropping XBL.

My guess would be AA was planning to drop the technology and found that as a good opportunity to jump ship. IIRC they had a new lineup out shortly thereafter

My question is with so much I heard about xbl2 and the performance that gave it a name, I can't even find those letters mentioned together anywhere on the internet later than 2006?? Did it just die out lol I thnk you see what I mean. Please someone satisfy my curiousity with a little knowledge as I have asked myself this question quite a few times lately.

It's still around. Just off hand the newer Stereo Integrity, Exodus Audio and CSS drivers utilize XBL^2.

Adire went out of business and Dan I believe burned some bridges just before the collapse, so a lot of the "Adire supports" went by the wayside. Dan's lack of presence on most of the forums likely caused a decrease in talk about his drivers. And Adire did a lot of OEM work along with the forum presence which dissipated after Adire collapsed. So that killed some of the XBL^2 buzz as well. And then, of course, you have the simple fact that "boners" on the internet move in waves. You'll have a hot items or buzzwords tossed around for a year or two only to be forgotten and replaced by a new "boner". On top of it all, since XBL is patented you had (have) to pay Dan a license/royalty fee to use the technology which made it more expensive than a "free" topology to use, so some of the companies (like AA) that used the design opted to drop it in favor of something they didn't have to pay for. Some of this paragraph is speculation, some of it is just forum heresay......but it probably all had a hand in the reason XBL isn't talked about as much.

Dan is still around and designing drivers;

About ADI

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

This is watered down example of XBL technology. Normally a motor's flux field field is strongest around the center of the magnent and decreases in strength further away. However XBL uses a little tooling in the motor that widens the flux field. There are several advantages to this, here is just a few.

Because the flux field is wider this allows for less magnents on a driver. Instead of having two or three magnets stacked together to widen the flux field, XBL can utalize a smaller amount. This makes the woofer lighter, and less expensive.

The flux field is distibuted over a larger area than most, this means the voice coil stays inside the magnetic gap as the cones moves farther out or in, unlike a conventinal motor where the coil would be moving out of the range of the magnetic flux.

So being the magnetic field is just as strong at rest as it is at Xmax, a XBL woofer can use up to 40 percent less power to reach xmax than a conventinal driver, because a conventional driver looses that magnetic force as the coil moves away from the magnetic gap.

http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/XBL2DetailsPaper.pdf

The above is a link that explain it better.

[stealth 113]

si mag.

now its all about superguass. lol jk

[Dpaw37 0]

Great replys. Thanks guys. Like I said, it was interesting to me how all the rage had xbl2 at the epicenter a few years ago and now it has, as you might put it...gone soft.

That being said, I understand the workings of a fad. But I would expect with a driver utilizing xbl^2, reaching xmax with %40 less power than a conventional motor, that those aware of the significance of this 'stat' would've at least kept it mentioned from time to time. I'll admitt I have heard a lot about the SI Mag, the others not so much in fact I don't think I've heard of either of the other 2.

Idk seems to me with the way it's been explained in this forum that it is a far-better, if not superior motor? What would be a practicle comparison to someone with intermediate knowledge? Maybe someone could exemplify it a little for me. Thanks again ya'll. Interesting stuff to me.

[mr.sagat 10]

I miss adire audio

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

Maybe someone could exemplify it a little for me. Thanks again ya'll. Interesting stuff to me.

You don't hear about xbl mcuh because Dan Wiggins holds the liscence to the product and he only does OEM work now. Kinda like a neo magnet, not many companies use it right? But what most people don't know is neo magnets are used on just about every small application from cell phones to the motors on the active braking on a Toyota Pruis.

Mr. Sagat, if you miss Adire, I am working on 12 and 15 that achieves 24 mm of one way linear excursion with only 600 watts that might interest you.

[mr.sagat 10]

Maybe someone could exemplify it a little for me. Thanks again ya'll. Interesting stuff to me.

You don't hear about xbl mcuh because Dan Wiggins holds the liscence to the product and he only does OEM work now. Kinda like a neo magnet, not many companies use it right? But what most people don't know is neo magnets are used on just about every small application from cell phones to the motors on the active braking on a Toyota Pruis.

Mr. Sagat, if you miss Adire, I am working on 12 and 15 that achieves 24 mm of one way linear excursion with only 600 watts that might interest you.

Dude, if you can make it an sq monster and it looks bland like adire products did, then I'm all in

[Impious 1,476]

Maybe someone could exemplify it a little for me. Thanks again ya'll. Interesting stuff to me.

You don't hear about xbl mcuh because Dan Wiggins holds the liscence to the product and he only does OEM work now. Kinda like a neo magnet, not many companies use it right? But what most people don't know is neo magnets are used on just about every small application from cell phones to the motors on the active braking on a Toyota Pruis.

Mr. Sagat, if you miss Adire, I am working on 12 and 15 that achieves 24 mm of one way linear excursion with only 600 watts that might interest you.

Dude, if you can make it an sq monster and it looks bland like adire products did, then I'm all in

No need to wait around, the driver for you is already on the market;

Exodus Audio Shiva-X2

Motor is based on the Adire Brahma. Capable of handling 1kw but certainly doesn't need it.

I own and run the Shiva-X and absolutely love it. The -X2 is a little different parts wise (3" coil on -X2, 2.5" coil on the original -X) but the parameters are pretty close to the same between the two.

They also have a 15" model, the Tempest-X2

[Impious 1,476]

Great replys. Thanks guys. Like I said, it was interesting to me how all the rage had xbl2 at the epicenter a few years ago and now it has, as you might put it...gone soft.

That being said, I understand the workings of a fad. But I would expect with a driver utilizing xbl^2, reaching xmax with %40 less power than a conventional motor, that those aware of the significance of this 'stat' would've at least kept it mentioned from time to time. I'll admitt I have heard a lot about the SI Mag, the others not so much in fact I don't think I've heard of either of the other 2.

Idk seems to me with the way it's been explained in this forum that it is a far-better, if not superior motor? What would be a practicle comparison to someone with intermediate knowledge? Maybe someone could exemplify it a little for me. Thanks again ya'll. Interesting stuff to me.

I don't know the 40% power thing to be true.

But, regardless, as with anything there are advantages and disadvantages. XBL is a good technology with some nice advantages. But, there are other ways to obtain good results. Some of the best drivers to hit the market have used well designed standard over or underhung motors, or variations of a standard over or underhung motor. The W7 for example uses basically a standard overhung motor with holes crossdrilled in the pole at the gap. Aura NRT is basically an underhung motor. And companies like Peerless and Scanspeak have done well producing very low distortion drivers with basic overhung motors.

But, here is a comparison by Neil of the 3 "main" linear BL topologies;

An Unbiased Comparison of Linear BL Technologies - SSA Car Audio Forum

[ryan s 12]

Great replys. Thanks guys. Like I said, it was interesting to me how all the rage had xbl2 at the epicenter a few years ago and now it has, as you might put it...gone soft.

That being said, I understand the workings of a fad. But I would expect with a driver utilizing xbl^2, reaching xmax with %40 less power than a conventional motor, that those aware of the significance of this 'stat' would've at least kept it mentioned from time to time. I'll admitt I have heard a lot about the SI Mag, the others not so much in fact I don't think I've heard of either of the other 2.

Idk seems to me with the way it's been explained in this forum that it is a far-better, if not superior motor? What would be a practicle comparison to someone with intermediate knowledge? Maybe someone could exemplify it a little for me. Thanks again ya'll. Interesting stuff to me.

Great replys. Thanks guys. Like I said, it was interesting to me how all the rage had xbl2 at the epicenter a few years ago and now it has, as you might put it...gone soft.

That being said, I understand the workings of a fad. But I would expect with a driver utilizing xbl^2, reaching xmax with %40 less power than a conventional motor, that those aware of the significance of this 'stat' would've at least kept it mentioned from time to time. I'll admitt I have heard a lot about the SI Mag, the others not so much in fact I don't think I've heard of either of the other 2.

Idk seems to me with the way it's been explained in this forum that it is a far-better, if not superior motor? What would be a practicle comparison to someone with intermediate knowledge? Maybe someone could exemplify it a little for me. Thanks again ya'll. Interesting stuff to me.

It's definitely not a fad. You will also find similar speakers with this tech labeled with "shorting rings" or "Farraday rings." As already touched upon, Dan Wiggins owns the "XBL" term. (As a side note, you guys remember the flashlights that were all the rage a couple years ago, the ones you shook up then used? Those are principally Farraday "motors" since the "coil" is shifted in the "magnetic gap" and can't leave it like a conventional coil can.)

In layman's terms...have you ever bottomed out a sub or heard one bottom? It's not pleasant and not good for it. XBLs can't bottom out. Theoretically, you can beat the hell out of them with a ton of power without damage.

They're not popular due to the XBL trademark, also because people would rather brag about putting 3000 watts into a 10. That's my opinion on the second part so like it or hate it, there it is

[Argent Audio 54]

I think the reason that most people were all over the XBL drives is because they were such "low end monsters" which is not 100% true. Yes they dropped low but the reason that most people thought of them as low end monsters is because they lacked top end output.

The XBL technology is truly best used in mids and tweeters.

Dan holds the patent and if you want to have subs that use XBL: ADI will design them for you and have them built in one of the overseas build houses they use.

Andrew

[95Honda 486]

The amount of magnets have nothing to do with the "flux field". It is mostlty the gap/magnetic circuit (steel) part. More magnets are used for clearance, and a little (like more than exponetially dropping benefits) more flux, but again, not much. They are much cheaper than high flux steel, that is why you see 2, sometimes 3 or 4 stacked. It is lot cheaper to stack 3" of magnet than machine a 3" thick top plate.

Lots of magnets also sell better, lol...

All XBL2 subs are not bottomless designs, this varies from sub to sub and has nothing to due with "XBL2", it has to due with voicecoil clearance. Every XBL2 sub I have owned (a shit load) will reach mechanical limits, just not always the rear of the voicecoil former. I have shredded 4 tumults from the triple joint smacking the top plate, this is not bottomless.

XBL2 reaps the benefits of a flat BL curve similar to an underhung motor. I personally think it performs better than underhung within the price range. But XBL2 also uses a shorter coil with less surface area and has lower thermal limits than similar overhung motors, but it does this with much less Le, which is a good thing..

The early XBL2 subs were low end monsters, but this really was primarily due to a really well suited set of T/s parameters for this. They had tons of clean linear stroke (1" more 1-way) low Fs and a mid Q. Add that all up and you get a sub that eats on the bottom, XBL2 helped keep the distortion low within the excursions limits. The lack of "high end" was usually due to the exxagerated low end and the fault of the end user....

Shorting rings and farady loops aren't fads, they have been used succesfully for many (like 20-30) years to lower Le....

Edited April 25, 2010 by 95Honda

[Impious 1,476]

It's definitely not a fad. You will also find similar speakers with this tech labeled with "shorting rings" or "Farraday rings." As already touched upon, Dan Wiggins owns the "XBL" term.

Shorting/Faraday rings are completely separate and independent of XBL. XBL is a dual gap technology, created by adding a notch in the top plate and pole piece. Shorting/Faraday rings are copper or aluminum "rings" placed strategically throughout the motor. An XBL motor may have Faraday rings in them, but that's not what makes it an XBL motor. A non-XBL motor may also use Faraday rings (and many of them do).

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Great replys. Thanks guys. Like I said, it was interesting to me how all the rage had xbl2 at the epicenter a few years ago and now it has, as you might put it...gone soft.

That being said, I understand the workings of a fad. But I would expect with a driver utilizing xbl^2, reaching xmax with %40 less power than a conventional motor, that those aware of the significance of this 'stat' would've at least kept it mentioned from time to time. I'll admitt I have heard a lot about the SI Mag, the others not so much in fact I don't think I've heard of either of the other 2.

Idk seems to me with the way it's been explained in this forum that it is a far-better, if not superior motor? What would be a practicle comparison to someone with intermediate knowledge? Maybe someone could exemplify it a little for me. Thanks again ya'll. Interesting stuff to me.

Great replys. Thanks guys. Like I said, it was interesting to me how all the rage had xbl2 at the epicenter a few years ago and now it has, as you might put it...gone soft.

That being said, I understand the workings of a fad. But I would expect with a driver utilizing xbl^2, reaching xmax with %40 less power than a conventional motor, that those aware of the significance of this 'stat' would've at least kept it mentioned from time to time. I'll admitt I have heard a lot about the SI Mag, the others not so much in fact I don't think I've heard of either of the other 2.

Idk seems to me with the way it's been explained in this forum that it is a far-better, if not superior motor? What would be a practicle comparison to someone with intermediate knowledge? Maybe someone could exemplify it a little for me. Thanks again ya'll. Interesting stuff to me.

It's definitely not a fad. You will also find similar speakers with this tech labeled with "shorting rings" or "Farraday rings." As already touched upon, Dan Wiggins owns the "XBL" term. (As a side note, you guys remember the flashlights that were all the rage a couple years ago, the ones you shook up then used? Those are principally Farraday "motors" since the "coil" is shifted in the "magnetic gap" and can't leave it like a conventional coil can.)

In layman's terms...have you ever bottomed out a sub or heard one bottom? It's not pleasant and not good for it. XBLs can't bottom out. Theoretically, you can beat the hell out of them with a ton of power without damage.

They're not popular due to the XBL trademark, also because people would rather brag about putting 3000 watts into a 10. That's my opinion on the second part so like it or hate it, there it is

Wait, what?

[ryan s 12]

Actually, I forgot...the GTi's use 2 magnets and 2 coils, while XBL uses 2 magnets...

While we're on the topic, the GTi's can take abuse due to the 2nd coil or "braking" coil. It's basically a push-pull design instead of a push, then relying on the suspension to bring it back. They are wound on the same chunk of cardboard so the coil never leaves the gap. Don't know if anyone is interested in white papers... http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/JBL_TN%201-33%20rev3.pdf And a post from Andy summing it up here...

[Dan208 23]

I miss adire audio

I've got a Shiva that I haven't used in over 5 years that I just installed in my vehicle. I forgot how loud this thing can get. One of my favorite subs ever.

[95Honda 486]

Actually, I forgot...the GTi's use 2 magnets and 2 coils, while XBL uses 2 magnets...

No, the magnets have nothing to do with XBL2. XBL2 refers to gap geometry (dual gaps). Many XBL2 drivers use single magnets.

In fact, the Parthenon used single stack magnets, this was the highest stroke driver Adire ever built, the protoytpe I saw could do over 4" one way...

[Argent Audio 54]

The lack of "high end" was usually due to the exxagerated low end and the fault of the end user....

Even in higher tuned enclosures this was still an issue. In the car audio world it is more practical to tune a bit higher and eq in some low end allowing for a better blending into your front stage.

Andrew

[mr.sagat 10]

I miss adire audio

I've got a Shiva that I haven't used in over 5 years that I just installed in my vehicle. I forgot how loud this thing can get. One of my favorite subs ever.

Back a few years ago I ran a pair of MKIV Shivas. I went to a local sound comp with them using a slot port box facing my rear in my 300zx. When it was my turn to get metered, I raised my hatch to reposition my box and the onlookers busted out laughing when they saw I was running "paper cone house speakers" As soon as the first burp came out and I hit a 147.8 with a 43hz tone everyone was silenced. I was the loudest person on the dash that day. I beat out 2 13w7's on 3000 watts, 3 10" L5's on 2000 watts, 3 memphis M3 15's on 3000 watts and a cut through truck with 4 3000spl pioneer 12's and 2000 watts. It's all about the install and box design, and the locals still don't understand that. Those were my first audio trophies. Later that night, I had my girl over at my house, and being the man/jackass that I am, I was telling her the whole story while I was shadowboxing, and kicked my trophies and broke one of them into pieces IMO shivas were great, they were like cheap JL w6's but better lol

[Dan208 23]

I miss adire audio

I've got a Shiva that I haven't used in over 5 years that I just installed in my vehicle. I forgot how loud this thing can get. One of my favorite subs ever.

Back a few years ago I ran a pair of MKIV Shivas. I went to a local sound comp with them using a slot port box facing my rear in my 300zx. When it was my turn to get metered, I raised my hatch to reposition my box and the onlookers busted out laughing when they saw I was running "paper cone house speakers" As soon as the first burp came out and I hit a 147.8 with a 43hz tone everyone was silenced. I was the loudest person on the dash that day. I beat out 2 13w7's on 3000 watts, 3 10" L5's on 2000 watts, 3 memphis M3 15's on 3000 watts and a cut through truck with 4 3000spl pioneer 12's and 2000 watts. It's all about the install and box design, and the locals still don't understand that. Those were my first audio trophies. Later that night, I had my girl over at my house, and being the man/jackass that I am, I was telling her the whole story while I was shadowboxing, and kicked my trophies and broke one of them into pieces IMO shivas were great, they were like cheap JL w6's but better lol

That's awesome. I always liked having an "unknown" sub, but I never really got a chance to show it off. Small town living, FTL.

[Dpaw37 0]

I miss adire audio

I've got a Shiva that I haven't used in over 5 years that I just installed in my vehicle. I forgot how loud this thing can get. One of my favorite subs ever.

Back a few years ago I ran a pair of MKIV Shivas. I went to a local sound comp with them using a slot port box facing my rear in my 300zx. When it was my turn to get metered, I raised my hatch to reposition my box and the onlookers busted out laughing when they saw I was running "paper cone house speakers" As soon as the first burp came out and I hit a 147.8 with a 43hz tone everyone was silenced. I was the loudest person on the dash that day. I beat out 2 13w7's on 3000 watts, 3 10" L5's on 2000 watts, 3 memphis M3 15's on 3000 watts and a cut through truck with 4 3000spl pioneer 12's and 2000 watts. It's all about the install and box design, and the locals still don't understand that. Those were my first audio trophies. Later that night, I had my girl over at my house, and being the man/jackass that I am, I was telling her the whole story while I was shadowboxing, and kicked my trophies and broke one of them into pieces IMO shivas were great, they were like cheap JL w6's but better lol

Hahaha awesome story man. Makes me want to get into competitive SPL.

[Impious 1,476]

The lack of "high end" was usually due to the exxagerated low end and the fault of the end user....

Even in higher tuned enclosures this was still an issue. In the car audio world it is more practical to tune a bit higher and eq in some low end allowing for a better blending into your front stage.

Andrew

The inductive corner frequency of the Brahma Mk II, for example, is 262hz (2.8ohm Re, 1.7mH Le). The upper end response was not limited by the driver itself. And given we are dealing with subwoofers the driver would be operating well within it's piston range, so high end response would again not be effected by the driver itself due to issues such as cone size, shape and material like we may have in midbass and midranges.

As 95Honda said; It was exaggerated low end not a lack of high end, unless there is some mechanism I'm missing that would have negatively affected the high end response.

[Impious 1,476]

Actually, I forgot...the GTi's use 2 magnets and 2 coils, while XBL uses 2 magnets...

While we're on the topic, the GTi's can take abuse due to the 2nd coil or "braking" coil. It's basically a push-pull design instead of a push, then relying on the suspension to bring it back. They are wound on the same chunk of cardboard so the coil never leaves the gap. Don't know if anyone is interested in white papers... http://www.jblpro.co...1-33%20rev3.pdf And a post from Andy summing it up here...

As 95Honda said, XBL has nothing to do with the number of magnets. XBL is "created" by notching the top plate and pole piece to create two independent gaps that the coil travels through.

Dual Differential Drive (the technology in the WGti) according to the white paper you posted uses a single magnet with two plates (one above the magnet and one below the magnet) to create two gaps of opposing polarity. The two coils are then also reversed in polarity. It isn't different from a standard driver in that one of the coils "pushes" the driver forward while the other "pulls" it back, the operation here is pretty much the same as a standard driver with the motor responding to the signal (for both "push" and "pulling") and the suspension providing additional restoring force. In DDD since one coils is 180* out of phase and in a field of opposite magnet polarity, the motion through their respective gaps will be the same (forward or rearward) but the coils and B fields will be electrically out of phase with each other which means the motor-related distortion mechanisms will also be out of phase which will reduce the distortion (this also aids in reducing inductance; likewise the opposing polarity of the B fields creates an inherent self-shielding). There is also the ability to electromechanically "brake" the cone's motion. (Though the WGti doesn't use the "braking coil", I believe it's "brake" is one coil entering the B field which is in opposite polarity to it's own)