Two-way Active Front Stage

[abmoore 8]

Why should my gain be set at 1/6th, it depends on what my attentuation in my eq is set to as well as how it matches up with my sub, I am turning it up to 26 and my maximum volume is 35, so I would say that is pretty good. But the phasing page was helpful, I never thought of doing it with a passive set before. My left tweeter has a huge dip in it compared to my right, I will change that first and see how that goes. I still would like to try another set, the midbass is really not up to par in these IMO. But if I can experiment enough with these and get good results, I might hold on to them.

[ryan s 12]

There's not really a "correct" gain setting in relation to a fraction or a clock position. Tuned at 3/4 max volume is a good rule of thumb, so you're right on. The passive crossover is a high pass filter for the tweeter, although I bet some sets have a low pass for the mid.

[emh9009 199]

Why should my gain be set at 1/6th, it depends on what my attentuation in my eq is set to as well as how it matches up with my sub, I am turning it up to 26 and my maximum volume is 35, so I would say that is pretty good. But the phasing page was helpful, I never thought of doing it with a passive set before. My left tweeter has a huge dip in it compared to my right, I will change that first and see how that goes. I still would like to try another set, the midbass is really not up to par in these IMO. But if I can experiment enough with these and get good results, I might hold on to them.

after you deaden the doors you should get an improvement in midbass, so wait to get some new ones until after your deaden :

[abmoore 8]

I have plenty of edead on my sheet metal and framing, although I hear that was a waste, and some ccf. All I am missing is the ccf and mlv, will that help midbass any more than the deadener?

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Why should my gain be set at 1/6th, it depends on what my attentuation in my eq is set to as well as how it matches up with my sub, I am turning it up to 26 and my maximum volume is 35, so I would say that is pretty good. But the phasing page was helpful, I never thought of doing it with a passive set before. My left tweeter has a huge dip in it compared to my right, I will change that first and see how that goes. I still would like to try another set, the midbass is really not up to par in these IMO. But if I can experiment enough with these and get good results, I might hold on to them.

SO in other words you have your gain set to high and are wondering why your mids are bottoming out.

IF ALL recordings in the WHOLE WORLD were recorded at the same level then maybe you would be good, but they are not.

I say your gain should be real close to 1/6 gain bc that is roughly 100 watts rms w/ a 4 volt input on you 320 watt rms ARC amp. Your speakers are rated @ 100 watts rms, your amp is rated at 320 watts rms. Let me explain how I came up with this math, which is for reference only and not exact.

[abmoore 8]

Gain doesn't control wattage, it is used to match the desired max output of your amp and match that with other amps, and you can't do the math like that. There are many other variables, like that amp is capable of far over 320 watts, and the speaker does not work up to 100 watts, then just blow... They are bottoming out because they are rated for a 100 Hz highpass, my sub stage is crossed so low I have to compromise and risk them bottoming out. Plus, only at full volume does a head unit put out the closest it will come to maximizing pre out voltage. Not to mention music is dynamic, that 100 watts is not actually what the speakers see.... LMAO? Really? Make sure you don't say something that ignorant before you LMAO..... Maybe you should research instead of falsely patronizing people. I know I am not all knowing, I am not even close, but at least I do not try and mock someone based on asking for help. That's what this forum is for. And even worse, people who are trying to learn that read this thread might believe what you said and go spread it around, or worse, implement that in their system. Who's laughing now...

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Why should my gain be set at 1/6th, it depends on what my attentuation in my eq is set to as well as how it matches up with my sub, I am turning it up to 26 and my maximum volume is 35, so I would say that is pretty good. But the phasing page was helpful, I never thought of doing it with a passive set before. My left tweeter has a huge dip in it compared to my right, I will change that first and see how that goes. I still would like to try another set, the midbass is really not up to par in these IMO. But if I can experiment enough with these and get good results, I might hold on to them.

SO in other words you have your gain set to high and are wondering why your mids are bottoming out.

IF ALL recordings in the WHOLE WORLD were recorded at the same level then maybe you would be good, but they are not.

I say your gain should be real close to 1/6 gain bc that is 100 watts rms w/ a 4 volt input on you 320 watt rms ARC amp. Your speakers are rated @ 100 watts rms, your amp is rated at 320 watts rms. Let me explain how I came up with this math, which is for reference only and not exact.

Look, I am trying to help you understand why your 300 dollar speakers sound like poop. I am not saying this is an exact wattage on your gain, BUT that you should start at around the 1/6 mark, IF the speakers DON'T get ANY louder from the going above 1/6 gain then you are reaching the mechanical limits of the drivers.

ALL I am suggesting is you listen with the gain low and turn it up slowly until the speakers don't get any louder, if thats 1/6 great if its more great.

Sorry for not specifing this as for reference ONLY. Please DON'T take my joking SO serious Brother.

[abmoore 8]

You are making little sense and you are still wrong, in fact my gain is less than 1/6th. Gain, as I said does not limit the output of the amplifer, given you have the preout V necessary, just the volume where you reach the power... Why would you think that at 1/6th speakers start becoming mechanically limited anyway, gains are set mostly by ear or with a RTA if you have one. And they don't sound horrible... For 200 by the way. I said I do hear the speakers bottoming out... That happens when they are supposed to be high passed 100Hz and instead they are at 63 at 24 db/oct. I KNEW this would cause a dilemma. I didn't care because I knew I was changing soon. By the way, your last sentence was just a tid bit contradicting. Oh, and again, excess power does not blow speakers, clipping does. Headroom is used by many people.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

You are making little sense and you are still wrong, in fact my gain is less than 1/6th. Gain, as I said does not limit the output of the amplifer, given you have the preout V necessary, just the volume where you reach the power... Why would you think that at 1/6th speakers start becoming mechanically limited anyway, gains are set mostly by ear or with a RTA if you have one. And they don't sound horrible... For 200 by the way. I said I do hear the speakers bottoming out... That happens when they are supposed to be high passed 100Hz and instead they are at 63 at 24 db/oct. I KNEW this would cause a dilemma. I didn't care because I knew I was changing soon. By the way, your last sentence was just a tid bit contradicting. Oh, and again, excess power does not blow speakers, clipping does. Headroom is used by many people.

Headroom is a beautiful thing and will definetly give you the dynamic power SO you are not clipping.

Here is my reasoning on the my assuming the math for around 1/6 gain, Like I said I am trying to help you get what you have sounding better OK SO hear me out. Thanks.

The Arc amp is rated @ 320 watts RMS@ 14.4v, In a perfect world, 1/2 gain with 4 volt input would be the 320 watts RMS, SO the "math" I am refering to is ROUGHLY 1/6 gain should be around 100 watts with YOUR 4 volt pre-outs on the H100. I know that the 4 volts is not constant because it changes with the volume SO for MY MATH I am assuming that the 28 out of 35 is ROUGHLY 4 volts. WE don't live in a perfect world BUT I feel this is a good place to start. Like I said I am just trying to help you tune what you have, AND am not trying to cause a dilemma for anyone. I am not here because I care about votes, BUT it is funny you vote me down without asking my reasoning, BUT DON'T VOTE ANYONE UP WHEN YOU DO FEEL THEY HELPed YOU OUT????? sorry to be aggressive in my responses as I am only human, trying to help, and just feel sassy somedays.

AS FAR AS DYMAMICS of the music I PERSONALLY am running an Alpine MRP-F600 with 300 watt RMS bridged to my 100 watt RMS front speakers SO I COULDN"T AGREE MORE that headroom is a beautiful thing. The dynamic peaks sound AMAZING in my set-up with this much headroom is WHY I am wondering what stting you "might" have wrong.

LIke I said I am not here for votes or a popularity contest, I am 32 years old and enjoy learning and helping others along the way, I don't mind admitting I am wrong IF it means WE are ALL learning.I am NOT the most savy person in the world with words SO PLEASE be a little gentler and I will do the same.

SO anyways back to the topic. IF you speakers don't sound bad why do you want to replace them?

BTW I think the REAL TECHS on here quit helping you when you started a second topic about the same thing.IDK.

[abmoore 8]

Thanks, I just didn't like the lmao thing I guess. And for voting, just figured it out lol, I'm new to forums, funny thing is I voted you up yesterday when you were very helpful. Now that's behind us, yeah, I probably should have continued on the last topic, my goals changed as well as my budget so I thought I would start this one. I played around with my phase some more (I actually took your advice during that altercation haha) and improved it more. I want to have some more natural sounding highs and more midbass, as well as increased sesnitivity. I have heard others I like much better and there is only so much I can do with these. Plus I like a change every now and then, switch the sound up a little and more experience with different companies. I already have people that want these too, I can buy a set from the profit on these. Glad we got past that tiff, this is much more productive on both of our parts.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Believe me I am in the same boat as you with the mid bass.

A 10" is not impossible to mount, BUT will take some time and effert as you can see from my build. BUT not much more if you already have to modify to fit an 8" .

I have some no name 10"s hooked up right now free air sitting on the floor that play up to around 4000hz, they are just temp until I get my pods done, BUT i am AMAZED how decent the mid bass is for some no namer 6.5ohm 10" drivers and they play ALL the way up to my tweeter and alittle.

ANYWAYS I suggest an 8" or a 10" if you want to make it fit, and the Dayton 2" domes. The Daytons handle alot of power and are sensitive for an 8ohm driver. I know they don't play super high freq. but the human ear can't hear past 15-17k once you are an adult anyways. (unless you are a freak like M5) Besides thats an easy compramise concidering most musical noise is alot lower freq. anyways.

I will do the Dayton myself IF I am not happy with the output of the 3" full ranger, WE will see.

I assume you are on a budget SO I will tell you this, ALOT of drivers are overpriced for OUR needs, there is no magic speaker and an affordable one will make sound just the same as the overpriced ones.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Hey hows my NCSU brother today?

I also wanted to add that besides from helping with the response curve, Changing the phasing on only one mid bass can sometimes eliminate destructive destortion/cancellation between the mid bass drivers. This could posibly help you with your mid bass if cancellation is occouring and causing a suck hole at that freq.

ANYWAYS the Eclipse manual says your sc8365 should play down to 30hz SO i guess I don't understand what you mean when you say they are meant to be crossed @100 but bottom out at 63hz@18db?

I have some 10"ers I will send you for free plus cost of shipping if you just want some for fitting and to play with? I have the no namers I was talking about OR some older Polk 10" woofers that probably only play up to 500-1000hz, just a thought. I have always liked having a few speakers I don't care about to move around the cabin to see the different effects, THIS really helpful to understand how things effect the reponse curve in real time.

ANYWAYS heres a couple pic of the free drivers, not pretty but they still sound pretty good, good enough for testing. Infact I have been listening to the top ones for over a month now, its only getting about half power and sound good for free air.

the polks came out of a friends truck and where matched with some tweeters and it actually sounded decent for some old polks and some cheap no name tweeters.

I would just sent the drivers, no boxes.

[ryan s 12]

I just set the gains by ear With 6.5V preouts, my one amp is set to like 5V and I clipped it once during some "Jet City Woman"

Personally, I don't believe in the "x gain = y watts"...you'll find out if the speakers are getting too much. That's in the practical sense...since gain matching is for the headunit. And that's assuming a) the gain pot is linear and 2) the markings on the amp are right.

The given "frequency response" numbers from the maker are generally way off. My MBQs should get down to 20Hz if I believe the box

Don't mean to add to the fire, only stating preference

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I just set the gains by ear With 6.5V preouts, my one amp is set to like 5V and I clipped it once during some "Jet City Woman"

Personally, I don't believe in the "x gain = y watts"...you'll find out if the speakers are getting too much. That's in the practical sense...since gain matching is for the headunit. And that's assuming a) the gain pot is linear and 2) the markings on the amp are right.

The given "frequency response" numbers from the maker are generally way off. My MBQs should get down to 20Hz if I believe the box

Don't mean to add to the fire, only stating preference

WE love the input Ryan. I too agree that music is SOOOO dymamic and recorded at different levels, at different studio's, with different producers at the mixing boards, with different technologys, SO the gain could be all over the place in that aspect. I like to set my gains a little high but I am the ONLY PERSON in control of the volume knob and am famillar with my system. The 9886 w/H100 has MORE than enough control right from the drivers seat that its easy to adjust sub and speaker levels for every different music source as needed once the inital settings are made.

As far as freq. response from the manufacter go's I "THINK" they are testing with low wattage, and once we the consumer are applying max RMS then they might not keep up at high volumes crossed so low but should still work fair down to 80 or 63 in most cases with a tall slope.

[ryan s 12]

Can't wait to have a CarPC and not have a "knob" accessible to passengers

I believe they test with 1w (or 2.83v in some cases) and then they have a range where, say, the output dips 10dB or whatever it may be. That's the "frequency range"...the speaker is physically moving air but at an almost inaudible level but the computer can still pick it up. Based on the FR graphs I've seen for speakers, that's what I get out of it

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Can't wait to have a CarPC and not have a "knob" accessible to passengers

I believe they test with 1w (or 2.83v in some cases) and then they have a range where, say, the output dips 10dB or whatever it may be. That's the "frequency range"...the speaker is physically moving air but at an almost inaudible level but the computer can still pick it up. Based on the FR graphs I've seen for speakers, that's what I get out of it

your correct only on a 4 ohm driver the 2.83v is equel to 2 watts.

I don't think the OP needs help setting his gain, I had simply asked what it was set at, didn't get an awnser so I made a recommendation as a starting point. The OP is trying to plan his next set-up, and actually wants to get different drivers is what the topic is about.

[abmoore 8]

I'm fine, hope you are too my friend. Yeah, I called the eclipse guy I know, dave something.. he said that 63 is a low cross for those, the FR might be F3, -3dB or F10, -10dB. Either way, we can agree they may not be the best drivers . By the way, your smileys must be wasted, but aside from that... Thanks ryan for clearing that up for us, its always good to have mediator. Also, can't remember if I said, but I changed the phase on my sub as well as a steeper low pass. It actually increased mid bass, or at least the way it is perceived, seemed to sound more like a fluid driver than a localized sub!! As for the tens I don't see how it would hurt to try something like that. Could learn a thing or two. But would I incorporate that with a new component set?

[ryan s 12]

Can't wait to have a CarPC and not have a "knob" accessible to passengers

I believe they test with 1w (or 2.83v in some cases) and then they have a range where, say, the output dips 10dB or whatever it may be. That's the "frequency range"...the speaker is physically moving air but at an almost inaudible level but the computer can still pick it up. Based on the FR graphs I've seen for speakers, that's what I get out of it

your correct only on a 4 ohm driver the 2.83v is equel to 2 watts.

I don't think the OP needs help setting his gain, I had simply asked what it was set at, didn't get an awnser so I made a recommendation as a starting point. The OP is trying to plan his next set-up, and actually wants to get different drivers is what the topic is about.

Sometimes threads get a little off topic but it's good since we're still moving forward

I'm fine, hope you are too my friend. Yeah, I called the eclipse guy I know, dave something.. he said that 63 is a low cross for those, the FR might be F3, -3dB or F10, -10dB. Either way, we can agree they may not be the best drivers . By the way, your smileys must be wasted, but aside from that... Thanks ryan for clearing that up for us, its always good to have mediator. Also, can't remember if I said, but I changed the phase on my sub as well as a steeper low pass. It actually increased mid bass, or at least the way it is perceived, seemed to sound more like a fluid driver than a localized sub!! As for the tens I don't see how it would hurt to try something like that. Could learn a thing or two. But would I incorporate that with a new component set?

I lol'd at the smiley comment

If you reverse the phase on the sub, you have to also "reverse the waves" of the sub. Can't think of a better term Basically...invert the sub. Most of the time, at least to me, there are very few issues with sub phase...more often it's cancellation due to the car.

Crossing a sub lower, and with a steeper slope, makes it less localizable (your made up adverb for the day ). If you have the space for a 12 or 15, there's not really any reason for tens. Moving air is the name of the game. Get mids that can play decently low, seal the door or do kicks...most big subs can be low passed at 63Hz and many mids can be high passed at 63Hz My 15 could be crossed at 200Hz...if I wanted to do it. Of course, the less frequencies a single driver needs to play, the better...so 63Hz low pass it is.