Two-way Active Front Stage

[abmoore 8]

I have made this thread before but now I have made some changes in the equipment I will be using that I hope will make this an easier install. Here is the link to the last thread I had regarding this issue Two-way active front stage - SSA Car Audio Forum My goal was to have increased output overall, along with authoritative midbass. My sub stage was going to be crossed low so we eventually decided on 2 Exodus Anarchys for each door, for the midbasses, and ID CD1e v3 horns for the highs. Since then I have purchased two amps I would like to use, an MB Quart DSC 4125 and a DSC 480 (260 shipped for the pair ::). Anyway, I am changing my sub stage to two 18 BTLs on two Crescendo 3kwds, so a considerable more amount of output and hopefully a higher crossover point. At this stage, flat response is clearly out of the question, yet I like cranking down my subs and having a somewhat musical system. My newer goals I guess will be to have increased midbass, less harsh, more realistic highs (yet more output, think that may pose a problem), better imaging (than I have now, I know that this limits my output), and a lower budget. The budget was fine but after talking to the guys at ID, they thought that the CD1 ultras better fit my needs over the CD1e v3s, but sadly are far more expensive. I fear that this all may be too contradicting to work out so hopefully I can reach a decision. I just ordered my BTLs and one of my Crescendos so I have a while to make some money for this project, but I feel like saving some is really important right now. I think a few of you recommended pro audio drivers, and I have had many others ranging from the aura sound 10 to pairs of ID CX62s. Really budget is going to be a deciding factor, considering I am not trying to spend 1000 on horns and midbasses. So with 500-600 I just wanted to look into some alternative choices. Sorry guys for this repeating thread but I think the answer is close. Oh, and for the mounting locations, I wanted to use kick panels, but after the horns I decided I wanted to use the doors for midbass. As for now though, the kick panel idea is back open in case I need to used a higher crosssed mid. All other information can be found in the link above. Thanks.

[ryan s 12]

Cheap, clean, loud. Pick 2.

You won't get "louder" than horns unless you move to multiple smaller drivers, say, on the dash. Think "line array." Midbass...might as well go to an 8, or add another pair of Anarchys.

Not running 6,000 watts of power for basically one octave of music might bring the front speaker selection into a clearer perspective. Just sayin.

[abmoore 8]

Haha, I know I am doing the sub stage for a while and plan on keeping it, but not necessarily in this truck, I will scale down to a 15 XCON or something. I eventually want to do a 4 way active set up, or 3 way maybe, but the focus will be on SQ. So basically this is kind of a last hoorah* in the spl department. Although I would like to maybe have some drivers that I could keep around for the next set up if at all possible. So that is a more accurate description of what I hope to do, so I guess I would have to sacfrice some output and go clean, I mean it should still be louder than my current set up if I wanted it to be.

[ryan s 12]

To do that, you'll have to (in short) increase cone area, Xmax, sensitivity, and install techniques. It doesn't have to be expensive if you pick right and install using good methods.

If I were you, I'd search for the biggest speaker you want to fit in the doors. Don't worry about power handling. 8 ohm drivers are more sensitive than 4 ohms, generally speaking. Some 8s would be ideal if you can fit em...budget wise...there's a ton. Morel CW8s, bunch of others.

For me, pro audio stuff isn't a great choice in the car. They are meant to be loud, yes, and they are sensitive. They usually have a higher frequency range but play higher. A pro 8" probably won't play as low as a good 7" properly suited for your install, defeating half the purpose of a big driver in the door.

Etc...

[abmoore 8]

Morel CW 8s are a good fit? I was looking at those the CAW938s, and I think the EWs. So I guess I can open the anarchys back up as an option, as well as the auras. Now the question is what about the highs? The ID ultras seem to expensive and I don't know if the cd1e v3s will cut it. I know the guys at ID are trying to make a sale, but it sounded like they thought the ultras were better for my goal. So maybe different horns or a super tweeter, or multiple tweets. Possibly a passive network with a mid and a tweet. Any ideas that would go well with that type of midbass.

[kirill007 52]

If this is what u mean with super tweeter, then there won't be anything SQ about it.

But they are really loud and more then 2(per side) of them is overkill.

super tweeter

[abmoore 8]

I was just wondering if they were anything like horns... I wouldn't do two haha that would be slight overkill huh?

[ryan s 12]

I haven't really paid too much attention to 8s since I can't fit em. Never used horns so I don't know which ID would work better.

That said, I can't really help a ton in that area. Multiple tweeters, if they are in different locations, will be tough to deal with. Already, with one pair of tweeters, you're really hearing at least 4 due to reflections. Unless the pair were right next to each other, I'd keep looking at horns or finding a tweeter you could put on axis...maybe a ring radiator tweeter?

[abmoore 8]

Does anyone know what is wrong with the CD1e v3s? I would love to incorporate those due to the price. Or I will just have to change my goals.

[///M5 2,833]

Mobile application for horns lead you to the ID's. If those don't fit your budget you will have to compromise, perhaps severely. Pro audio horns are usually WAY bigger and I don't see how you could fit any without completely gutting your car.

[abmoore 8]

Mobile application for horns lead you to the ID's. If those don't fit your budget you will have to compromise, perhaps severely. Pro audio horns are usually WAY bigger and I don't see how you could fit any without completely gutting your car.

Well I guess a severe compromise is in order for right now. I can save money in the future and go the ID ultra route. So I guess I should either go passive or maybe a 7 or 8 midbass and a tweeter I can cross pretty low. Either way I want to mount in the kicks and angle towards the passenger and the other side angle at myself, unless having them on-axis to a point head high between the passenger and myself would work better. If I do a passive, I could do a nice two way, or three way with a larger midbass and keep it in the door, leaving the mid and tweet in the kick. Out of those choices, what is looking the best for more than average midbass and less harsh, natural highs? Most likely I guess I would be looking at an oversized soft dome tweeter possibly. Something like a Vifa 25XTBG60-04, Morel CAT 308, or even a Dayton RS28A (even though it has an aluminum dome I heard it is not harsh in an automotive environment), plus they all seem to have a relatively high power handling to make up for the lack in efficiency. For mids I would need something with response to about 60-70 Hz I am guessing which shouldnt be hard for an 8, but response above 3-4kHz while still providing more than average output may be a limiting factor. I am still open to the idea of multiple mids too. Thanks.

[abmoore 8]

Checked out some Etons, Seas prestiges, those crazy motor tangbands W7s I think, and the Morel CAW 938s for mids. Any experience with these?

[lithium 358]

big midbass and a 3inch fullrange is another option. you would have to find a 3incher that could take some power though.... someone mentioned multiples in an array, but i know nothing on whether or not this would work well. usually running multiples results in cancellation and isn't recommended.

advantage here is that you dont have to find a midbass option that has to play too high or make a tweeter play real low since the full range can basically play from ~300 on up

[abmoore 8]

I think the question came down to how high will the full ranges play. I mean I would rather sacrifice some output and midbass for a cleaner and fuller response.

[ryan s 12]

Mobile application for horns lead you to the ID's. If those don't fit your budget you will have to compromise, perhaps severely. Pro audio horns are usually WAY bigger and I don't see how you could fit any without completely gutting your car.

Well I guess a severe compromise is in order for right now. I can save money in the future and go the ID ultra route. So I guess I should either go passive or maybe a 7 or 8 midbass and a tweeter I can cross pretty low. Either way I want to mount in the kicks and angle towards the passenger and the other side angle at myself, unless having them on-axis to a point head high between the passenger and myself would work better. If I do a passive, I could do a nice two way, or three way with a larger midbass and keep it in the door, leaving the mid and tweet in the kick. Out of those choices, what is looking the best for more than average midbass and less harsh, natural highs? Most likely I guess I would be looking at an oversized soft dome tweeter possibly. Something like a Vifa 25XTBG60-04, Morel CAT 308, or even a Dayton RS28A (even though it has an aluminum dome I heard it is not harsh in an automotive environment), plus they all seem to have a relatively high power handling to make up for the lack in efficiency. For mids I would need something with response to about 60-70 Hz I am guessing which shouldnt be hard for an 8, but response above 3-4kHz while still providing more than average output may be a limiting factor. I am still open to the idea of multiple mids too. Thanks.

Horns only go up in price from the IDs. Wayyyyyy up...think $2k apiece.

A 3-way is hard to do...but...there is a Hertz 3-way passive kit out there (one for sale on DIYMA now).

What's killing your options is needing to play low and high. That's what led me to the H Audios. They're only 6.5s but can play low and match with dang near any tweeter since they can go to 4kHz.

I was going to go with a 3" full range from 400Hz on up but that is a lot of frequencies to play. Instead, I'm going to cross them high where the Ebonys leave off...probably 2k-ish. That avoids crossing in the vocal range which leads to other issues.

big midbass and a 3inch fullrange is another option. you would have to find a 3incher that could take some power though.... someone mentioned multiples in an array, but i know nothing on whether or not this would work well. usually running multiples results in cancellation and isn't recommended.

advantage here is that you dont have to find a midbass option that has to play too high or make a tweeter play real low since the full range can basically play from ~300 on up

Cancellation depends on what's happening. In home theater, for example, you can run subs facing each other in an infinite baffle manifold, and that cancellation can stop vibrations

It's better to have to EQ "down" rather than "up," so if you can minimize a peak and shift it to a place where there's a dip, it's all good

For a "loud" 3"er, gotta get one with Xmax, big-ish Vas, and higher Qts so it can go in a bigger enclosure. Most of these smaller ones only take 15w and have an Xmax of less than 3mm. There is a Fostex out there that does 6mm I think.

I think the question came down to how high will the full ranges play. I mean I would rather sacrifice some output and midbass for a cleaner and fuller response.

Time for some education Zaph|Audio Know how to read FR graphs?

[abmoore 8]

I do, but I am not quite sure how to match drivers based on where break up and distortion starts. I really am starting to consider passive components, and focus on finding the best mounting locations, a solid install (learning some better techniques), and properly deadening the truck. I'm sure I could find some better components without spending too much that have a more natural sound, little better power handling, higher efficiency, and better midbass. I might tone down the sub stage as well. I want to make sure I have plenty of time to research about active so I can know more about it when I go forth with it. I feel that is my best option right now on my budget, unless anyone else thinks other wise I guess.

[ryan s 12]

Get a passive set and an amp that could go active if need be (my headunit doesn't have "low" highpass options under 2kHz, for example) and go from there. Once your install is top notch, swapping stuff will take out a variable or four Mess with the EQ and getting a good center image and all that good stuff without worrying about XO points at the moment.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Time for some education Zaph|Audio Know how to read FR graphs?

you beat me to it.

[abmoore 8]

Get a passive set and an amp that could go active if need be (my headunit doesn't have "low" highpass options under 2kHz, for example) and go from there. Once your install is top notch, swapping stuff will take out a variable or four Mess with the EQ and getting a good center image and all that good stuff without worrying about XO points at the moment.

I have a couple full pass amps I am going to keep just for that. And I have the pxa h100 so I could always start active (practice) by adding a midbass to the doors after a while, and trying to incorporate that with the passive set. Not sure how that would work, just a thought, or I guess just get rid of the crossover from the passive set (duh). Just need to decide on a passive set now....

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Do you have any speakers installed now? something to compare to?

[abmoore 8]

Yeah, eclipse sc8365, the woofers bottom out real easy, and the aluminum dome tweet is pretty harsh. Vocals almost sound nasally and echoes. That might be due to lack of the ccf and mlv I am about to install. They were pretty much stock door angled, I changed the mid and tweet, but now the TA sounds a little off. I was thinking the CDT HD 62US, morels, rainbow kickbass, ID CX64, or diamond d6s. The cdts sound good for the money and I like the idea of the free image tweeter on the anniversary edition, plus good reviews. Not sure what the strongest midbass performer is though.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Yeah, eclipse sc8365, the woofers bottom out real easy, and the aluminum dome tweet is pretty harsh. Vocals almost sound nasally and echoes. That might be due to lack of the ccf and mlv I am about to install. They were pretty much stock door angled, I changed the mid and tweet, but now the TA sounds a little off. I was thinking the CDT HD 62US, morels, rainbow kickbass, ID CX64, or diamond d6s. The cdts sound good for the money and I like the idea of the free image tweeter on the anniversary edition, plus good reviews. Not sure what the strongest midbass performer is though.

What amp do you have them hooked to?

Have you tried different phase combonations on the comps you have now?

[abmoore 8]

Arc audio FD 4150 bridged to 4 ohms, and how would I individually control phase on a passive set when I am not active?

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Arc audio FD 4150 bridged to 4 ohms, and how would I individually control phase on a passive set when I am not active?

With the Arc bridged you should have the gain set at around 1/6 as a guess. where is your gain set?

Yes you will change the phase at the passive x-over for each individual driver, BUT just start by reversing the drivers that don't sound right. GET A NOTEBOOK and write down what you thought of each wiring combo, What you are trying to achieve is better response curve from the drivers that don't sound right with everything in phase. I start with the driver that sounds like its out of place, or barking at you over the other drivers. What you want is ALL the speakers to sound like ONE PERFECT SPEAKER or single sound source.

Remember to set all eq's flat, I personally left the T/A on but you can test with and without T/A, In my ride there was no way to test without bc the driverside speakers are so close to me.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

oh ya, and heres some white paper to explain this phenomenom with the different phasing. http://www.polkaudio.com/downloads/whitepapers/sr6500.pdf Its down towards the bottom pages, BUT this is ALL a good read.