Cablguy184's 97 Chevy Silverado

[Impious 1,476]

So the current front stage is (supposed to be) 3-way with the 5.25's and tweeters on the dash and 6.5" midbass in the doors ?

[Randal Johnson 544]

That's correct Sir.

Passive (with phase compensation) 5.25" component set on the dash crossed on the low end around 100 htz on a 150 watts per channel, and active (with phase compensation) 6.5" midbass drivers low in the doors cut on the top end around 175 htz and the low end around 50 htz on 150 watts per channel ... For now

Edited April 6, 2013 by Cablguy184

[///M5 2,833]

That's correct Sir.

Passive (with phase compensation) 5.25" component set on the dash crossed on the low end around 100 htz on a 150 watts per channel, and active (with phase compensation) 6.5" midbass drivers low in the doors cut on the top end around 175 htz and the low end around 50 htz on 150 watts per channel ... For now

Passive and phase compensation are not possible.  Of course neither is active and phase compensation.  Each and every frequency has 360 degrees of phase and nothing can compensate at all of them.  Solving an error at a single frequency only does just that.  Any company that markets a product that way is shady.

Shrink the 5.25".  You'll make huge gains having a smaller mid in a 3 way.

[///M5 2,833]

Well to be more accurate you can have more than 360 degrees as direction an wrapping can occur.  

[Randal Johnson 544]

That's fine Sean ... Its cool with the theories and principals not working according to textbook. But as long as I keep high standings in with the MECA judges saying my truck has some of the best staging and midrange that they've ever herd, that's all that counts ...

I could care less about the mathmatics, as long as everyone that sits in my vehicle is impressed with the sound ... I'm happy

But thanks anyway for your input ...

[///M5 2,833]

Randal the phase compensation is impossible.  Compensating at each and every frequency is surely not done in a crossover that you have in your car.  And that is even making the assumption you are only correcting a point source and not something that radiates sound.  If you really want to "compensate" position should be factored into the equation.  You can't stop each and every sound wave from propagating at the speed of sound.  When moving, each wavelength then will have a different phase at any given distance from the source since they are all different wavelengths.  Compensating a single frequency at a single point in space is absolutely not an issue albeit far from trivial, but the audio spectrum? No way.

 

You can't cheat the laws of Physics, but you can lie in marketing.

[Randal Johnson 544]

Sean, I'm not getting into this with you ...

I've met up with Mark and Aaron at different events, they looked and listened to our vehicles and was very impressed. This forum promised me that if the admins though anything bad about me or my equipment, I'd leave and never return ... But their thoughts were a very good positive ... So that should be good enough for you since you will not bring your ass out into the real car audio world and demo our vehicles in person ... So please, talk to Mark and Aaron about their thought on my truck and quit picking these fights with me cause I'm not going to do anything "textbook" to my truck. I have more fun the way things are now ...

So please ban me or leave me alone ...

[ParrishElectronics 6]

Interesting.  I am by no means an expert, but I have always been taught anytime you introduce reactive components into an audio circuit, there is going to be some form of phase shift.  This shift can be altered, minimized, or compensated for by certain design characteristics in the crossover.  However, I've read numerous times that this subject is always up for debate and depending on who you talk to you will get different answers.  I guess it's kind of like the old argument of direct current flow.  Depending on who you talk to, there are those that say current flows from negative to positive, and then those that say it flows from positive to negative.  I've read some arguments and reasonings for both.

 

To me, its just one of those subjects that will always have people on both sides of the coin.

 

I'm not sure I understand the comments about marketing and lying.  Seems like strong comments to make on a subject that is by everything I've been taught, read, heard, etc is certainly debateable.

 

Oh well, just my take on the issue.

[KyleBrown 121]

Truck sounds like poo

 

 

JK lol. It sounds amazing. Some people spend too much time reading and trying to blueprint everything rather than do. Getting your hands dirty and actually trying new things. Not everything that works on paper works in reality. Sometimes you gotta go balls deep and fuck shit up

[///M5 2,833]

Randal I didn't say anything about your truck or installation. Was just pointing out that there is no way you have phase compensation. It is not possible. Whomever told you it was is uneducated or lying. There is no age old debate. Phase is a VERY simple topic. Covered in an entry level Waves class which is usually only a 200 level class. There is no gray area in it either. A wave is a wave, you cannot defy Physics. This isn't about listening, SQ, or anything like that at all. Perhaps it is about crappy marketing, but that isn't your fault.

If you want to defend the marketing that is your choice. Again this isn't an attack on you or your system, just basic facts that someone/company is seriously misleading you.

This also isn't about what works on paper. It is a fundamental law of Physics. You cannot get around it. It is akin to saying Gravity doesn't work in your truck.

[Randal Johnson 544]

Ok Sean, point taken Sir ... Thank you for the help, I will talk to Ray about this at a later date. But for now, we will just keep things the way they are and concentrate on placement, interior, paint and body work before October ... Which is the biggest event of the year, the Unified (meca, usaci, and Iasca) world finals !!!

Ray will be there in the manufacturer's booth so you can talk to him in person about product and will have his Excape (and my truck) in the demo booth for your listening pleasure. Ray takes his time and talks to each and everyone about technical and general car audio ...

If you care anything about car audio at all, please make plans to attend this event. Please don't give me that "I don't have time and its inconvenient krap ... Make time !!! My truck has over 350000 miles on it traveling to shows and events, so I've proved my dedication to this sport. I'd really like to buy your lunch and talk shop in person ... Again, thanks for your help man !!!

Edited April 6, 2013 by Cablguy184

[///M5 2,833]

Bummer that Ray is the source of the misinformation. At least it ought to be easy to fix. On quick bit of advice I alluded to above, while you are concentrating on placement try a smaller mid. The 5.25's are not doing you justice.

[edouble101 314]

Bummer that Ray is the source of the misinformation. At least it ought to be easy to fix. On quick bit of advice I alluded to above, while you are concentrating on placement try a smaller mid. The 5.25's are not doing you justice.

 

 

Why is that?

Edited April 7, 2013 by edouble101

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

Bummer that Ray is the source of the misinformation. At least it ought to be easy to fix. On quick bit of advice I alluded to above, while you are concentrating on placement try a smaller mid. The 5.25's are not doing you justice.

Why is that?

I would ASSuME it has to do with the correlation between the diameter of the diaphragm and the frequencies being produced. A smaller "middle" driver would more easily even the passband.

[///M5 2,833]

Bummer that Ray is the source of the misinformation. At least it ought to be easy to fix. On quick bit of advice I alluded to above, while you are concentrating on placement try a smaller mid. The 5.25's are not doing you justice.

Much more efficiently and without the artifacts of a 5.25. Would free up the tweeter to do it's job better as well. Add to that the benefit for tuning of having a single driver play most of the voicing all with absolutely no negatives.

Why is that?

I would ASSuME it has to do with the correlation between the diameter of the diaphragm and the frequencies being produced. A smaller "middle" driver would more easily even the passband.

Yes and much more efficiently and without the artifacts of a 5.25. Would free up the tweeter to do it's job better as well. Add to that the benefit for tuning of having a single driver play most of the voicing all with absolutely no negatives.

[Dangrebel 89]

Bummer that Ray is the source of the misinformation. At least it ought to be easy to fix. On quick bit of advice I alluded to above, while you are concentrating on placement try a smaller mid. The 5.25's are not doing you justice.

Much more efficiently and without the artifacts of a 5.25. Would free up the tweeter to do it's job better as well. Add to that the benefit for tuning of having a single driver play most of the voicing all with absolutely no negatives.

Why is that?

I would ASSuME it has to do with the correlation between the diameter of the diaphragm and the frequencies being produced. A smaller "middle" driver would more easily even the passband.

Yes and much more efficiently and without the artifacts of a 5.25. Would free up the tweeter to do it's job better as well. Add to that the benefit for tuning of having a single driver play most of the voicing all with absolutely no negatives.

Just sit in Randall's truck... You will be surprised at how well the 5.25 works.

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

Where is the sound staged.

[Dangrebel 89]

Everything is out on the hood, great left and right channel separation. And you can really hear the depth and staging at any volume! Mid bass like a mother! The ISO 10's dig deep!

[ParrishElectronics 6]

 

 

 

Bummer that Ray is the source of the misinformation. At least it ought to be easy to fix. On quick bit of advice I alluded to above, while you are concentrating on placement try a smaller mid. The 5.25's are not doing you justice.

Much more efficiently and without the artifacts of a 5.25. Would free up the tweeter to do it's job better as well. Add to that the benefit for tuning of having a single driver play most of the voicing all with absolutely no negatives.

Why is that?

 

I would ASSuME it has to do with the correlation between the diameter of the diaphragm and the frequencies being produced. A smaller "middle" driver would more easily even the passband.

 

Yes and much more efficiently and without the artifacts of a 5.25. Would free up the tweeter to do it's job better as well. Add to that the benefit for tuning of having a single driver play most of the voicing all with absolutely no negatives.

Just sit in Randall's truck... You will be surprised at how well the 5.25 works.

Agreed.  You have to listen to it to really appreciate it. 

[ParrishElectronics 6]

Bummer that Ray is the source of the misinformation. At least it ought to be easy to fix. On quick bit of advice I alluded to above, while you are concentrating on placement try a smaller mid. The 5.25's are not doing you justice.

Hmm....I doubt it.

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

I'm sure it sounds good. I've never sat in it so I would be able to say otherwise.

However the diameter of a driver determines its cutoff frequencies. There is no way around that.

I will go on to say though that Corey Himmel used a 6.5 in the kicks, a 5" in the pillar/dash area and a 5.25 center channel (ran F1status). With a kicker 8 or 10 in the dash.

[Impious 1,476]

Just sit in Randall's truck... You will be surprised at how well the 5.25 works.

Just because it might sound subjectively good now, doesn't mean it couldn't sound better

 

I've got some other issues with the install.  But I'm sure Randall is happy so I figured it wasn't worth the argument....

[dbsupra 69]

Just sit in Randall's truck... You will be surprised at how well the 5.25 works.

Just because it might sound subjectively good now, doesn't mean it couldn't sound better

I've got some other issues with the install. But I'm sure Randall is happy so I figured it wasn't worth the argument....

I know what you are saying.

Several years ago when my supra was doing 440hp at the wheels it was pretty fast. I gave several people a ride and they couldn't believe how fast it was. Fastest car they have ever been in.

That summer at a supra event my buddy in GA just finished his. Was doing 620hp on the dyno. I went for a ride and it was a different world. Got back in mine and it felt broke lol.

Needless to say I upgraded mine soon after. That was around 2006. I think I'm on upgrade #4 and now its in pieces in the garage again.

[///M5 2,833]

Bummer that Ray is the source of the misinformation. At least it ought to be easy to fix. On quick bit of advice I alluded to above, while you are concentrating on placement try a smaller mid. The 5.25's are not doing you justice.

Hmm....I doubt it.

Came out of Randal's mouth not, mine. "I'll have to talk to Ray about it".

Just to put Randal's comments on phase compensation in perspective.

The class in Physics you take after Classical Mechanics is Waves. Both follow exactly the same set of rules. Describing things in waves is obviously over the head of 99.9% of the public, so I'll move to a more simple and straightforward analogy from Classical Mechanics which I alluded to above. Gravity. Most people know it exists and at least have a rudimentary understanding of what it does.

There are situations you can create to avoid gravity. Just google how they train astronauts. So the preface of not always having gravity 100% of the time is feasible. The same can be said about phase compensation. At a single frequency for a single point in space it isn't so hard. Change space or frequency and it becomes even more difficult than gravity correction.

By Randal typing his truck is phase compensated it is exactly akin to saying I am able to defy gravity at ALL TIMES in ALL PLACES with my truck. Reality of the situation is that there is no place it will ever defy gravity. Same wih the phase. It will never be compensated at all points in space (flat out impossible) and at all frequencies (no processor available to my knowledge has that power). Of course, then by saying he'll have to bring it up with Ray I can assume the source.

You can doubt what you want, but I guess we could clear this up by asking fo r the source although I don't care as either way it is flat out wrong, impossible and shouldn't be cited. Wherever it came from, whomever it came from is either an idiot or a manipulative ass that is trying to make $$ by confusing those that don't know.

And please, ask ALL the frequency related questions you like. It is rather right up my alley. If something is unclear I'd be glad to explain it to you.

Just sit in Randall's truck... You will be surprised at how well the 5.25 works.

Just because it might sound subjectively good now, doesn't mean it couldn't sound better

I've got some other issues with the install. But I'm sure Randall is happy so I figured it wasn't worth the argument....

I know what you are saying.

Several years ago when my supra was doing 440hp at the wheels it was pretty fast. I gave several people a ride and they couldn't believe how fast it was. Fastest car they have ever been in.

That summer at a supra event my buddy in GA just finished his. Was doing 620hp on the dyno. I went for a ride and it was a different world. Got back in mine and it felt broke lol.

Needless to say I upgraded mine soon after. That was around 2006. I think I'm on upgrade #4 and now its in pieces in the garage again.

Exactly. And not unlike Impious I left out a ton of other obvious things that can help, but if my recommendation were followed it would benefit things GREATLY.

And for those with the "just listen to it" comments. That is seriously laughable. I have listened to pretty much every driver in the Madisound, PE, Solen, and ... catalogs. Including tons that have never made it to market. All in environments way nicer than a car. So yes, not only do I understand scientifically what will happen but my ears have experienced it as well. Exactly why I will not be attending some simple car audio event. Compared to sitting in Ray Kimber's, Dave Wilson's, Jim Winey's, Orfield Lab's and other listening rooms I've been in there is not anything in car audio that will impress me.

What baffles me is EVERYDAY I want to learn more, but the attitude of some of you that come on here with the high and holy this product is the shiznit is absurd. Install is everything and all Imp & I are doing is trying to help. Stop taking it personally and open your ears.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

 

Bummer that Ray is the source of the misinformation. At least it ought to be easy to fix. On quick bit of advice I alluded to above, while you are concentrating on placement try a smaller mid. The 5.25's are not doing you justice.

Hmm....I doubt it.

 

Came out of Randal's mouth not, mine. "I'll have to talk to Ray about it".

Just to put Randal's comments on phase compensation in perspective.

The class in Physics you take after Classical Mechanics is Waves. Both follow exactly the same set of rules. Describing things in waves is obviously over the head of 99.9% of the public, so I'll move to a more simple and straightforward analogy from Classical Mechanics which I alluded to above. Gravity. Most people know it exists and at least have a rudimentary understanding of what it does.

There are situations you can create to avoid gravity. Just google how they train astronauts. So the preface of not always having gravity 100% of the time is feasible. The same can be said about phase compensation. At a single frequency for a single point in space it isn't so hard. Change space or frequency and it becomes even more difficult than gravity correction.

By Randal typing his truck is phase compensated it is exactly akin to saying I am able to defy gravity at ALL TIMES in ALL PLACES with my truck. Reality of the situation is that there is no place it will ever defy gravity. Same wih the phase. It will never be compensated at all points in space (flat out impossible) and at all frequencies (no processor available to my knowledge has that power). Of course, then by saying he'll have to bring it up with Ray I can assume the source.

You can doubt what you want, but I guess we could clear this up by asking fo r the source although I don't care as either way it is flat out wrong, impossible and shouldn't be cited. Wherever it came from, whomever it came from is either an idiot or a manipulative ass that is trying to make $$ by confusing those that don't know.

And please, ask ALL the frequency related questions you like. It is rather right up my alley. If something is unclear I'd be glad to explain it to you.

> 

 

Just sit in Randall's truck... You will be surprised at how well the 5.25 works.

Just because it might sound subjectively good now, doesn't mean it couldn't sound better

I've got some other issues with the install. But I'm sure Randall is happy so I figured it wasn't worth the argument....

 

I know what you are saying.

Several years ago when my supra was doing 440hp at the wheels it was pretty fast. I gave several people a ride and they couldn't believe how fast it was. Fastest car they have ever been in.

That summer at a supra event my buddy in GA just finished his. Was doing 620hp on the dyno. I went for a ride and it was a different world. Got back in mine and it felt broke lol.

Needless to say I upgraded mine soon after. That was around 2006. I think I'm on upgrade #4 and now its in pieces in the garage again.

Exactly. And not unlike Impious I left out a ton of other obvious things that can help, but if my recommendation were followed it would benefit things GREATLY.

And for those with the "just listen to it" comments. That is seriously laughable. I have listened to pretty much every driver in the Madisound, PE, Solen, and ... catalogs. Including tons that have never made it to market. All in environments way nicer than a car. So yes, not only do I understand scientifically what will happen but my ears have experienced it as well. Exactly why I will not be attending some simple car audio event. Compared to sitting in Ray Kimber's, Dave Wilson's, Jim Winey's, Orfield Lab's and other listening rooms I've been in there is not anything in car audio that will impress me.

What baffles me is EVERYDAY I want to learn more, but the attitude of some of you that come on here with the high and holy this product is the shiznit is absurd. Install is everything and all Imp & I are doing is trying to help. Stop taking it personally and open your ears.

 

The underlined above statement is the most important thing said in the last few pages.