Cablguy184's 97 Chevy Silverado

[///M5 2,833]

Settings available on said processors, aiming choices, deadening, mounting (ie under the kick) and so on would help us help you.

[Randal Johnson 544]

Everything in the headunit is set flat. Basic output, enexpensive unit that works great for my application.

The PA2 is set flat also. there is no equalization in this system. Everything should run as it was ment to sound from the recording.

The X03 is primarily used for the sub amp. My 502HV simply will not work properly without it. The compontnents in the As and kicks ... they are pretty much on their own.

[sq_mgb 21]

I heard his truck at finals and I didn't know there were rear speakers in the truck until they told me. Even with the rear seat out, EVERYTHING came from in front of you and was high up on the dash, including sub-bass. I don't know what he did with them, or even what they were / are, but his stage is still in front of you, extending beyond the a-pillars, both in front of you and sideways. I also looked at the angle of his kick panels and the angle of the 6 1/2's really threw me for a loop because of where they were aiming. I don't know how they work, or why, because it SEEMS like it should NOT work, but it does.

I've been reading everything I can find on frequencies and angles and height and from what I've read, it seems that tweeters up high do help bring the stage up, midbass/midrange frequencies are not as directional and can be off-axis somewhat and still work because of the wavelength of the frequencies they reproduce, but I can't explain why. We all know subs are omni-directional, so that's easy to make sound up front by crossing them over low enough and having a capable midbass driver up front. That part I can grasp, I just wish I knew the physics behind all the other stuff, since I just know enough to be dangerous. All I know is SOMEHOW the combination of angles, levels, materials, and components in his truck work, and WORK WELL TOGETHER.

For the amount of money he's spent, the return on his investment is pretty darn good. Am I saying it sounds better than EVERY SQ vehicle that's ever been built, NO, but if I have to almost buy a freaking HOUSE to make my vehicle sound better, mine just isn't going to sound better. I do recall a guy from a few years back that did quite well with a green Ford Probe that had a center channel in the REAR of his car, built into the hatch cover firing off the back glass. That didn't seem like it would work either, but it did. I'll try to find the magazine with him in it. (I only remember it because I used to have a car just like it)

Conventional wisdom says that most of the things in his truck SHOULDN'T WORK....he's just not afraid to try something new and if it doesn't work, try something else. He has a pretty good team of minds helping him, and they all like to push the envelope a little to see if they can do what says can't be done. One of those guys put 144 12" Polk subs (yes, 144 subs, that's 1152 screws in case any of you were wondering) in a bread truck once because someone said he couldn't do it! I think he just likes to try different things and experiment and if it doesn't work, he didn't fail, he just found another way that won't work. But every now and then, one of those WTF things actually turns out and then we all try to figure out WHY. I just try to keep an open mind now since I've heard it. To my knowledge there is also NO DEADENING ANYWHERE in his truck which makes me wonder WTF???

Like I say, I can't explain the physics behind it all, because I don't know enough of it, so maybe someone else here can? Please! Pretty please!

Settings on his crossovers are high pass to 6's somewhere around 32Hz for critical listening, higher for playing on the weekends. Tweets are passively crossed over I think around 3,000Hz and all eq frequencies are set to flat including bass/treble on head unit. Subs are crossed over low pass at 54Hz, all slopes are 12dB per octave I think except for subs which is 24dB per octave. The PA-II is used as a pre-amp with the head unit volume set to the maximum unclipped output level and volume is controlled by the PA-II. His crossover is an XO-3 which has level controls built in for adjustments on the fly. I can't speak for what's under the kicks because I've not seen under them. That's all I know until the end of the month when I tear his truck apart right before the show in Jackson. He doesn't know about that yet, don'r read this part Cablguy!

[Impious 1,476]

The truck got hit by a huge tree limb before finals last year. We had to replace the hood and right fender. The cowl/vent pannel was broke too and I didn't notice it. Over the Mississippi storms, water got everywhere. my kick pannels and carpet got the worst.

Atleast it gives you a great excuse to get out and play with the stereo again

Are you changing anything or just repairing what was damaged?

[Impious 1,476]

Everything in the headunit is set flat. Basic output, enexpensive unit that works great for my application.

The PA2 is set flat also. there is no equalization in this system. Everything should run as it was ment to sound from the recording.

The X03 is primarily used for the sub amp. My 502HV simply will not work properly without it. The compontnents in the As and kicks ... they are pretty much on their own.

Are the fronts passive?

[sq_mgb 21]

Yes, the front tweeters are crossed over at 3,000Hz passive, 12dB per octave, the 6.5's are crossed over at 32Hz, 12dB per octave high pass and roll off naturally on the high end, all run off a modified LP 2.2HV.

Edited March 12, 2010 by sq_mgb

[Impious 1,476]

I also looked at the angle of his kick panels and the angle of the 6 1/2's really threw me for a loop because of where they were aiming. I don't know how they work, or why, because it SEEMS like it should NOT work, but it does.

From the pictures they appear to be aimed fairly off axis to the listeners, which is not uncommon as this allows the listening axis of both seats to be closer to equally off axis to both speakers which in turn helps the frequency response have less deviation between the L & R speakers at the listening position. If you look at pictures of some of the big name competitors, their mids are hardly ever aimed at the listener. They are usually aimed far off axis, many times aimed straight across the vehicle at each other.

I've been reading everything I can find on frequencies and angles and height and from what I've read, it seems that tweeters up high do help bring the stage up,

Vertical (height) ques generally begin to occur when the wavelength of the soundwave is equal to the height of your ear. Generally this will be in the 3khz - 4khz range......But if ya got big honkin' ears you may start to recognize height ques at a much lower frequency

The potential problem with separating the mid from the tweeter by a great distance (a distance greater than the wavelength of the crossover frequency) is coherence and frequency response at and near the crossover point. It can be overcome, but something that needs considered.

midbass/midrange frequencies are not as directional and can be off-axis somewhat and still work because of the wavelength of the frequencies they reproduce, but I can't explain why.

In midbass frequencies the wavelength of the sound wave is typically longer than the diameter of the cone (for the speaker sizes we typically use in car audio) so the on- and off-axis response of the driver is not going to deviate from each other. But as frequency increases and the wavelength becomes smaller than the diameter of the cone (as may happen in the midrange frequencies) the soundwaves generated by the cone will begin to destructively interfere with each other and the off-axis begin to roll off and deviate from the on axis response. Think of the speaker as an array of tiny point sources. When the wavelength of the soundwave is less than the distance between the sources, they can destructively interfere. Where this problem occurs for a driver playing midrange depends on the diameter of the driver. The effect is referred to as "beaming".

This is one of the reasons I mentioned above that many competitors intentionally aim speakers off axis to both listeners. If you aim a speaker on axis to one listener, it will inherently be off axis to the other listener. Since in the midrange frequencies beaming usually begins to occur, the on and off axis response is going be different. One thing you generally want in a good stereo setup is for the frequency response at the listening position to be the same from both the left and right speakers. And if you want a stereo to sound equally as good from both the driver and passenger seats, then the frequency response at both seats also needs to be the same. So if you aim the speakers on axis to the driver, the passenger will be off axis and hence the frequency response will likely be different. If you aim the speakers at some arbitrary point between the two seats, then you will be more off axis to the near side speaker than you will be the opposing speaker which will create a difference in frequency response between the left and right speakers. But if you aim them close to equally off axis to both listeners, then the response at both listening positions and from both speakers will be closer to the same. Some competitors start by aiming the speakers either at the opposing speaker or at the back of the headunit, then make their adjustments from there.

Like I say, I can't explain the physics behind it all, because I don't know enough of it, so maybe someone else here can? Please! Pretty please!

I tried to help.

Settings on his crossovers are high pass to 6's somewhere around 32Hz for critical listening, higher for playing on the weekends. Tweets are passively crossed over I think around 3,000Hz and all eq frequencies are set to flat including bass/treble on head unit. Subs are crossed over low pass at 54Hz, all slopes are 12dB per octave I think except for subs which is 24dB per octave. The PA-II is used as a pre-amp with the head unit volume set to the maximum unclipped output level and volume is controlled by the PA-II. His crossover is an XO-3 which has level controls built in for adjustments on the fly. I can't speak for what's under the kicks because I've not seen under them. That's all I know until the end of the month when I tear his truck apart right before the show in Jackson. He doesn't know about that yet, don'r read this part Cablguy!

Sorry, I didn't read this paragraph before asking about the crossover

[Randal Johnson 544]

Impious, Now this is the kind of forum I like here. thank you. Thats information on car audio I think everyone should read.

Guess I just don't know how to put things into words like that.

I gonna try to go back to the way it was but with minor changes and better looks. Just wish I had more money.

Theres alot I want to do to this thing (rebuilds and upgrades) Just don't know where to start.

SQ_MGB ... Keep your screwdrivers off my ride .... lmao ....

I have 2 more Cables to get before the engine comp. is done. I'm running 2awg welding cable throughout front to rear. Some of it is done. I'll post updated pics later when I get back on track.

[sq_mgb 21]

Thanks Impious for that incredible explanation...you just explained in one post what I've spent months trying to understand. Thank you for using layman's terms for those unfortunate souls like me that had to go accounting because we couldn't cut it in physics!

[jcarter1885 995]

Thanks Impious for that incredible explanation...you just explained in one post what I've spent months trying to understand. Thank you for using layman's terms for those unfortunate souls like me that had to go accounting because we couldn't cut it in physics!

x2, I definitely learned enough today to want to have some fun with my front stage.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Impious is a VERY helpful guy. When he talks, I listen.

I honestly don't even go on ANY other audio forum's, The tech's on here REALLY help people to understand WHAT they are doing, NOT just tell them WHAT to do. Thanx again.

Yes I am a young bull.

[Sir-Lancelot 216]

I have a lot to learn.

Thank you Impious for taking the time to help make sense of all this.

SSA Tech Team FTMFW !

[Randal Johnson 544]

This is what we did ... We bought Crown and coke. Made drinks. got relaxed. set the speakers in a position, listened, moved them, listened. This went on and on until everyone knew we had the perfect sound. This went on for hours. Staging a vehicle takes ALOT of time, patience, trial and error. (and alot of whiskey). We said we were going to install the speakers where the sounded best, no matter where the location. It turned out awesome. I just hope I can get her back together before the shows. Thank you all.

[Impious 1,476]

Thanks Impious for that incredible explanation...you just explained in one post what I've spent months trying to understand. Thank you for using layman's terms for those unfortunate souls like me that had to go accounting because we couldn't cut it in physics!

LOL......Hey now, my degree is in Accounting !

Sorry for the sidetracking Randal.

Good luck with the rebuild. Who's ears did your borrow for the evening.....or should I say who borrowed your whiskey for the evening ?

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

This is what we did ... We bought Crown and coke. Made drinks. got relaxed. set the speakers in a position, listened, moved them, listened. This went on and on until everyone knew we had the perfect sound. This went on for hours. Staging a vehicle takes ALOT of time, patience, trial and error. (and alot of whiskey). We said we were going to install the speakers where the sounded best, no matter where the location. It turned out awesome. I just hope I can get her back together before the shows. Thank you all.

Definely can be alot of trial and error trying to get the perfect sound stage. Some vehicles are definetly more giving than other's for mounting locations. So many Phase combinations to try also. So many OTHER factor's, Always FUN though Or we wouldn't doing it.

Are you making your own kickpods?

[Randal Johnson 544]

Yea, we are going to build the kick pannels today (I hope). The will be done just like the other ones. I May try to relocate the E-Brake on the drivers side. It was too much of a headache last time.

[Randal Johnson 544]

Inpious, The guys the helped me out are Robert Rafield, Mike Flannagan, Eddie Hill, TJ Lacharite, and Jimmy Walker (thunder) helped me out on those nights. The shop better known as Ultimate Autosound / Tips inc.

[Randal Johnson 544]

I found them ... These pics are my engine now. I said earlier that I'm getting more cables made. I'll post the finished product when I can. My water situation kinda put a halt to things.

I want to put some hotrod stuff on it later. (if I can talk the wife out of the money)

[///M5 2,833]

Impious, you meant size of your pinna. Not height. Either way spot on.

Running passives (if they are the stock ones) with drivers separated that far can be a nightmare, in particular with such a high crossover point. I'd look for a more robust tweeter that you can cross lower and it will improve your staging a TON. This will require a leap to active which will also give you a large improvement and be a much better use of that extra amp that you are adding instead of the rears. I'd also try to tame some of the reflections as the Silvy dashes are terrible for making anything coherent.

[Randal Johnson 544]

I agree with ya on the dash part. I use a fluffy towell during competition in the middle of the dash to "trap" the singer.

I have my tweeters out of phase with my 6 1/2s. All of that part was worked out by Ray. My rear speakers will suprise you if

set in my truck. Its not set up the way you think. I thought that sq_mgb explained that.

[///M5 2,833]

I understand when and how rears can be effective...but you don't have the processing for that. Spending the money improving your fronts will yield you way better results and scores.

I am also surprised that both tweeters out of phase is the best setup. I'd play with that some more. Try ALL combinations of phase between the fronts.

*possible you are hiding that you do as I am unfamiliar with the detailed specs on the LP stuff, but it doesn't seem so from your description

[Randal Johnson 544]

Please keep in mind M5 that I am a competitor this year (truck broke or not). If I give off all my secrets to this truck.

I might get my butt handed to me in competition. I would like to win a few more times.

According to my scoresheet from last years world finals, My front stage was spot on the way it should be. That part will not be changed. I'm just trying to score better points on installation.

My whole concept to this truck is to be very competitive with NO processors and minimal sound dampining. It feels very good to beat out those EXPENSIVE systems.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Sean and Brad will not steer you wrong, they are very sharp when it comes to this stuff. Nice amps, but I agree on the vote to ditch the rears. If you want to have rears, I vote that we nail the front stage down first.

Not sure if you were the one that said Blues speakers were coming back and you knew the owner, if so, please tell him to shoot me an email, we might be able to offer them a company section on one of our sites.

[Impious 1,476]

Impious, you meant size of your pinna. Not height. Either way spot on.

LOL....I couldn't remember the anatomical term, and was too lazy to look it up. Thank you for the correction

[Randal Johnson 544]

Denim, Robert Rayfield / TipsInc. is the person in charge of Linear Power / BluesCarAudio. His info is on my signature.

Ray and Mike designed my front stage and scores GREAT in competition. send me a pm with your number and I'll give it to ray and tell you bout my rear speakers. I'm just not allowed to give out the info on the design yet.