Sub zero temp and AGM batteries

[Dammed 12]

I have a problem starting my car (Toyota Celica, 1.8l engine) at -20C / -4F using a HC800 as a starting battery, and I'm trying to find out if the battery is dying or if the efficiency of a HC800 at this temperature is so low that it actually has problems starting a 1.8l engine without being busted.

My car don't have any stereo at the moment, the only thing unoriginal is the cd player and the battery under the hood.

So what do you all believe, is the battery busted or is it alright?

edit: I'm using the car for longer trips, minimum 30 min trips, so the alternator should charge it sufficiently.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Dammed

[shizzzon 461]

the colder the environment is, the less capacity AND less cranking amps it can support.

at 20 below, your aH rating is probably about cut in half!

CCAs are rated at 0 and are usually about ~60-70% of the CA rating.

So if a battery can discharge 1000A at 32F but only 600-700A at 0F look at how much current is being lost.

That HC800 is not a large battery at all. I'm surprised at it's capability really because once it starts the car, alt's gotta charge that baby back up for a few minutes since a decent portion of it's capacity has been drained.

coming from this weather, it's not surprising.

Do NOT let it die though! You cannot charge a dead battery in that type of climate so if it's getting low and you are not allowing enough time for the alt to recharge it, get an AGM battery charger.

[jcarter1885 995]

the colder the environment is, the less capacity AND less cranking amps it can support.

at 20 below, your aH rating is probably about cut in half!

CCAs are rated at 0 and are usually about ~60-70% of the CA rating.

So if a battery can discharge 1000A at 32F but only 600-700A at 0F look at how much current is being lost.

That HC800 is not a large battery at all. I'm surprised at it's capability really because once it starts the car, alt's gotta charge that baby back up for a few minutes since a decent portion of it's capacity has been drained.

coming from this weather, it's not surprising.

Do NOT let it die though! You cannot charge a dead battery in that type of climate so if it's getting low and you are not allowing enough time for the alt to recharge it, get an AGM battery charger.

Not to thread jack or anything but in this case if your batteries AH are cut in half in that type of weather then will you be getting full use from your batteries in your system. Sounds like a no, so is there a way to avoid this or just get some more batteries with AH headroom? I live in Texas so weather barely gets that cold.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

No need to get an "AGM charger." Any charger will work. Just don't buy some cheap POS. Even 400CA should be enough to start that little thing, so I am leaning towards a charging issue or age. Granted, the cold will not help and it just further compounds any under-lying issues.

[shizzzon 461]

i say cut in half, it's not THAT severe but it might...

I dont see companies rate batteries below 0F so one can only speculate how much more you lose.

In terms of capacity, yes, going below freezing does decrease battery capacity.

Some charts i've seen before, going just above 100F increases battery rated specs by only 1-2%, not measurable nor noticeable unless you have 400 batteries in the back, lol.

It's just simply, it's xtremely cold and that's what's happening, the capacity is less and the cranking amps are LOW.

[Dammed 12]

The battery was bought in may 2009, so it's fairly new. I called my Toyota dealer, and they said the original battery in my car had a rating of 570A, if this is short circuit draw or over a larger period of time they didn't know.

The HC800 battery should deliver 750A in the first 5s. Which is enough time for my engine to start.

Yeah I know the battery will perform less at low temperature, but how do I find out if the performance the battery is showing is because it's busted or if it's the temperature?

[The enD 467]

Did you check all your connections. Can be loose somewhere.

I wonder if you do the big 3 will it be better and starts right away.

[Adrian_D 520]

I have a problem starting my car (Toyota Celica, 1.8l engine) at -20C / -4F using a HC800 as a starting battery, and I'm trying to find out if the battery is dying or if the efficiency of a HC800 at this temperature is so low that it actually has problems starting a 1.8l engine without being busted.

My car don't have any stereo at the moment, the only thing unoriginal is the cd player and the battery under the hood.

So what do you all believe, is the battery busted or is it alright?

edit: I'm using the car for longer trips, minimum 30 min trips, so the alternator should charge it sufficiently.

The HC800 is TINY to use as a starter.

IMO using a gel battery for a starter battery is not a good idea.

[SpeakerBoy 64]

I have a problem starting my car (Toyota Celica, 1.8l engine) at -20C / -4F using a HC800 as a starting battery, and I'm trying to find out if the battery is dying or if the efficiency of a HC800 at this temperature is so low that it actually has problems starting a 1.8l engine without being busted.

My car don't have any stereo at the moment, the only thing unoriginal is the cd player and the battery under the hood.

So what do you all believe, is the battery busted or is it alright?

edit: I'm using the car for longer trips, minimum 30 min trips, so the alternator should charge it sufficiently.

The HC800 is TINY to use as a starter.

IMO using a gel battery for a starter battery is not a good idea.

Why?

[alexj01_83 6]

what weight oil are you running thick oil can drag your engine in severe cold.. just a thought.

[shizzzon 461]

i bet thats what it is adrian d. i didnt like the sound of using it as a starting batt in the first place. any little problem is gonna make it that much harder to start.i dont think u can accurately test a batt for possible problems in that cold..cant u just charge it up at autozone then take it back and let it sit inyour house for a couple hrs then check voltage level.

[Spencerk 4]

Hmmm weird because AGM batts contain no liquid, they are a dry cell seal chemical reaction. A gel cell or standard lead acid battery contains a sulfuric acid electrolyte in an immobilized gelignite electrolyte, which is the cause for their main down fall ( they fail at low temps) As with most everything in the world of electron transfer when you lower the nominal temp of the transferring material the resistance lowers. I would expect nothing less if you told us you had a lead acid or gel cell, but with a glass mat style battery Im kinda out of ideas for you solution. The only way you could tell if it wad the car or the battery would be to take the battery out of the car and check the voltage and load test it. then let it sit outside for one night and check again.

[Adrian_D 520]

Hmmm weird because AGM batts contain no liquid, they are a dry cell seal chemical reaction. A gel cell or standard lead acid battery contains a sulfuric acid electrolyte in an immobilized gelignite electrolyte, which is the cause for their main down fall ( they fail at low temps) As with most everything in the world of electron transfer when you lower the nominal temp of the transferring material the resistance lowers. I would expect nothing less if you told us you had a lead acid or gel cell, but with a glass mat style battery Im kinda out of ideas for you solution. The only way you could tell if it wad the car or the battery would be to take the battery out of the car and check the voltage and load test it. then let it sit outside for one night and check again.

As far as I know AGM's have acid (VRLA). Kinetics on the other hand have gel. And under heavy loads bubbles form.

Gel is thick and it isn't good at "disposing" of the bubbles, further reducing the capacity of the battery.

Now this shouldn't mean that gel batteries are bad. They are not ideal to use as started batteries.

[Duran 387]

Want an easy fix? Use a starting battery not a deep cycle.

[Julian 641]

something like this WILL help keeps the battery above 0 degrees and will allow your battery to crank more amps, needs a plug in though

Battery Wrap

[Dammed 12]

The reason I have a HC800 in the front is that I usually have 3 HC1800 in the back, so starting current was never a problem, but it became now since I sold my car stereo. I'm not looking for a solution for my starting problems, but a answer on how to check if the battery is busted or not.

I'm running 5w-30 (recommended for my engine), I changed it a couple of weeks ago so it should be fine.

People here have been using Optima batteries (gel) for years without problems, one could of course debate why one type is better or worse, but in general gel batteries are fine as starting batteries.

But yeah, I'm gonna get it charged up, I let it rest inside the house for a couple of hours and then do a voltage test with a multimeter. Is there a another way I can check the battery to see if it's in good working condition?

[jcarter1885 995]

something like this WILL help keeps the battery above 0 degrees and will allow your battery to crank more amps, needs a plug in though

Battery Wrap

To me that would be a lot of work every morning or whatever you have to go out there and try this to use your battery and give yourself an amount of time for it to get to the temperature or state you need it in. I would just replace the battery.

Well this is a good read I was gonna go Kinetik for all my battery purposes but not know.

[shizzzon 461]

Kinetik? How dare you not support our local subforumer XS Power

[jcarter1885 995]

Kinetik? How dare you not support our local subforumer XS Power

Haha your right, they received an email from me last night so Im done debating on which company to go with.

[audiolife 14]

Hmmm weird because AGM batts contain no liquid, they are a dry cell seal chemical reaction. A gel cell or standard lead acid battery contains a sulfuric acid electrolyte in an immobilized gelignite electrolyte, which is the cause for their main down fall ( they fail at low temps) As with most everything in the world of electron transfer when you lower the nominal temp of the transferring material the resistance lowers. I would expect nothing less if you told us you had a lead acid or gel cell, but with a glass mat style battery Im kinda out of ideas for you solution. The only way you could tell if it wad the car or the battery would be to take the battery out of the car and check the voltage and load test it. then let it sit outside for one night and check again.

As far as I know AGM's have acid (VRLA). Kinetics on the other hand have gel. And under heavy loads bubbles form.

Gel is thick and it isn't good at "disposing" of the bubbles, further reducing the capacity of the battery.

Now this shouldn't mean that gel batteries are bad. They are not ideal to use as started batteries.

Kinetik is an AGM not a gel.

[audiolife 14]

I have a problem starting my car (Toyota Celica, 1.8l engine) at -20C / -4F using a HC800 as a starting battery, and I'm trying to find out if the battery is dying or if the efficiency of a HC800 at this temperature is so low that it actually has problems starting a 1.8l engine without being busted.

My car don't have any stereo at the moment, the only thing unoriginal is the cd player and the battery under the hood.

So what do you all believe, is the battery busted or is it alright?

edit: I'm using the car for longer trips, minimum 30 min trips, so the alternator should charge it sufficiently.

My kinetik HC1400 always starts my truck at even when I was in Toledo and it was -20F for a week and 3 of the last 4 years in north east indiana it was below 0 f for the whole month of febuary. An HC 800 is the size of a lawnmower battery (We have a HC800 to start my late fathers lazer lawnmower fits with the same mount) Fact is with that small of a battery the faster the whole battery can freeze inside where the chemicals are in the mat. The smaller the battery the faster and more complete it can happen.

Tony Stewart owns a Camping World Race Truck team (MRD is the team name and John Gibson is the driver) they actually use the kinetik HC800/KR912 in their racing 650++hp vehicles.

[Impious 1,476]

Hmmm weird because AGM batts contain no liquid, they are a dry cell seal chemical reaction. A gel cell or standard lead acid battery contains a sulfuric acid electrolyte in an immobilized gelignite electrolyte, which is the cause for their main down fall ( they fail at low temps) As with most everything in the world of electron transfer when you lower the nominal temp of the transferring material the resistance lowers. I would expect nothing less if you told us you had a lead acid or gel cell, but with a glass mat style battery Im kinda out of ideas for you solution. The only way you could tell if it wad the car or the battery would be to take the battery out of the car and check the voltage and load test it. then let it sit outside for one night and check again.

As far as I know AGM's have acid (VRLA). Kinetics on the other hand have gel. And under heavy loads bubbles form.

Gel is thick and it isn't good at "disposing" of the bubbles, further reducing the capacity of the battery.

Now this shouldn't mean that gel batteries are bad. They are not ideal to use as started batteries.

Common Specifications

• AGM Technology

Kinetik High Current Power Cells

[Impious 1,476]

Kinetik? How dare you not support our local subforumer XS Power

I would rather support Kinetik

[Impious 1,476]

Is there a another way I can check the battery to see if it's in good working condition?

Load test the battery. If you can't do this yourself, most maintenance garages should be able to do it for you.

[Dammed 12]

I'm going to try and do a battery test, think it's called a load test tomorrow and see what the test says, I'm 90% sure that it's busted.

This way I'll know what really going on.