Blues Production Sub's. . . . . . . Remember

[///M5 2,833]

Now as far as hyper-critical analysis of parms. If that's your thing, fine. But it is not the manufacture's responsibility to satisfy your thirst for parms. If you need or want more "numbers", take it upon yourself to satisfy your need for hyper-critical analysis. But accusing or condenming a manufacture of lying to or scamming the public because they only release a certain set of parms is not different than assumed guilt rather than assumed innocence (the TSA is a perfect example).

Never said that manufacturers have to release full measurements, but stated that subjective opinions have no value but true measurements do.

Your whole post sounds like you are trying to disagree with Physics without directly stating that. Perhaps you could enlighten us on how measurements will show you something and then be wrong.

[6APPEAL 7]

Now as far as hyper-critical analysis of parms. If that's your thing, fine. But it is not the manufacture's responsibility to satisfy your thirst for parms. If you need or want more "numbers", take it upon yourself to satisfy your need for hyper-critical analysis. But accusing or condenming a manufacture of lying to or scamming the public because they only release a certain set of parms is not different than assumed guilt rather than assumed innocence (the TSA is a perfect example).

Never said that manufacturers have to release full measurements, but stated that subjective opinions have no value but true measurements do.

Your whole post sounds like you are trying to disagree with Physics without directly stating that. Perhaps you could enlighten us on how measurements will show you something and then be wrong.

Nope, the laws of physics don't bend. But the measurements are taken in one environment on the one specific driver tested and don't always measure the same in the installed environment on the one specific driver you purchased 6 months later. Too many variables can change that affect the results.

[///M5 2,833]

Unless the driver fails, anechoic response is pretty consistent over time.

Obviously no driver will measure the same in a free field condition versus a non-free condition, but that is something you can account for if you take the time to make the right measurements.

I am glad that you aren't making the subjective argument that something is great even if it measures like crap.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Unless the driver fails, anechoic response is pretty consistent over time.

Obviously no driver will measure the same in a free field condition versus a non-free condition, but that is something you can account for if you take the time to make the right measurements.

I am glad that you aren't making the subjective argument that something is great even if it measures like crap.

That would be ultra stupid.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

Unless the driver fails, anechoic response is pretty consistent over time.

Obviously no driver will measure the same in a free field condition versus a non-free condition, but that is something you can account for if you take the time to make the right measurements.

I am glad that you aren't making the subjective argument that something is great even if it measures like crap.

That would be ultra stupid.

Pun intended.

[Impious 1,476]

As for the t/s measurements, Ill stick with what I said. They are the reference point of which to start from. Not the end all.

Certainly they aren't the end-all objective measurement that completely defines a loudspeaker, no one has said they are.

But they do absolutely allow you to ascertain certain aspects of the performance of a loudspeaker, much more useful than simply determining enclosure size. Really, the purpose of T/S parameters isn't at all to allow you to design an enclosure, as you suggested. They provide an objective description of the low frequency response characteristics of the driver (as well as some high frequency information), which in turn allows us to accurately predict how the driver will respond in a given enclosure in terms of frequency response, phase response, transient response, etc (among other things). Sure, people can use them to design an enclosure. But that's because of how useful T/S parameters are. They allow us to predict this information. But the actual intent of T/S parameters is to objectively describe the low frequency behavior/response of the loudspeaker, which has the good fortune of allowing us to make accurate predictions. Which are then useful for other things, such as enclosure design (for one example)

Look its like this. Listen to what you like. Dont listen to what you dont like. But dont criticize anything you havent listened too!(Thats price, sound or looks).

Certainly someone should design their system for their own enjoyment, whatever that may be. No one can argue against that point.

But don't think it's not possible to criticize a loudspeaker without hearing one if sufficient objective data is available. As Sean has pointed out; a loudspeaker can't do anything that defies the laws of physics. The pertinent aspects of it's performance can be obtained from proper objective measurements.

And my quote for the day: Watch whos toes you step on today,they might be connected to the butt you have to kiss tomorrow!

Why is it that this entire discussion is being taken as "stepping on toes"? No one in this thread has made one discouraging remark against the drivers performance, yet many of the Blues supporters seem to be getting defensive over it. The only comments I've made directly about the speakers are 1) the drivers are expensive (self-evident from their listed prices), and 2) none of the information provided tells us anything about their actual performance (self-evident from the [lack of] information provided). Who's toes is that stepping on?

[Mike Flanagan 0]

Maybe i am getting a little defensive about the Blues product. Its something i happen to be passionate about. We've been working on and listening to samples for quite a long time (off and on since 1998, heavily for about 3 years now) trying to find the best combination of the best to produce not just a quality product, but the best product (and yea ill admit that last statement was subjective, lol). So please forgive me if i get a little defensive when, after winning at two world finals, over 100 combined sq shows, having some of the best ears in car audio(Ralph Randall, Todd Crowder, Mike Darville, Tim Goudy, and so on) compliment the product, acouple of people on this forum WHO HAVENT SO MUCH AS LISTENED TO THE SPEAKERS try to make an objective comparison on price (i believe the term used was "salty") or how they sound (i believe it was said "i have always thought you could find speakers that could reproduce same sound at a much lower price" i probably butchered that last quote but that is what i got from it). It would be the same as me, after looking at a picture of your ride, telling you that i dont like the way it sounds and you spent way too much. I would think youd get a little upset too(if you didnt i would think that you agree with me).

And trust me, i understand T/S measurements and what they are used for (you can ask anyone in the Blues group, Ive spent countless hours in front of leap and LMS over the past years, taking measurements, adding cone weight, take another mesurement, listen to changes, take another measurment and etc.(and i havent done half the work Ray Rayfield and others have!)) and low frequency aint the half of it! And as knowlegeable as you seem to be, I dont think i have to tell you that!

All that to say this, sorry if i seem mad or upset with anyone cause im not! Im just very excited about a product that i want everyone to know about and to hear(and eventually put in your ride!).

please look over the spelling, im sure its bad!

[///M5 2,833]

Maybe i am getting a little defensive about the Blues product.

Emotional decisions aren't ever logical. Best not to react on them and post anything, it surely doesn't help you make your point.

So please forgive me if i get a little defensive when, after winning at two world finals, over 100 combined sq shows, having some of the best ears in car audio(Ralph Randall, Todd Crowder, Mike Darville, Tim Goudy, and so on) compliment the product, acouple of people on this forum WHO HAVENT SO MUCH AS LISTENED TO THE SPEAKERS try to make an objective comparison on price (i believe the term used was "salty") or how they sound (i believe it was said "i have always thought you could find speakers that could reproduce same sound at a much lower price" i probably butchered that last quote but that is what i got from it).

Nice argument, errr, not at all. What I don't understand is how you can preach and agree with objective and then always roll back to subjective as reasoning. What this implies to all those reading is exactly that you are getting defensive for a reason. If you were just defending the drivers you'd have a more logical comeback instead of an emotional one. Even worse when you add the fact that no one even attacked them but it created a defensive reaction anyways. If you want to make a point do it objectively and not emotionally or subjectively. Ultra already showed us how the approach you are currently taking works. I am not so sure it would be healthy to copy them.

And trust me, i understand T/S measurements and what they are used for (you can ask anyone in the Blues group, Ive spent countless hours in front of leap and LMS over the past years, taking measurements, adding cone weight, take another mesurement, listen to changes, take another measurment and etc.(and i havent done half the work Ray Rayfield and others have!)) and low frequency aint the half of it! And as knowlegeable as you seem to be, I dont think i have to tell you that!

Then why is this so hard for you? I asked before and I'll ask again. Give an example just once where real measurements showed something and were wrong.

[Mike Flanagan 0]

My last post guys. I guess everyone was right. Ill get nowhere talking to you guys.

As for "give one example just once where real measurements showed something and were wrong"? That ones easy! TITANIC!(you know the UNSINKABLE SHIP that sank on its maiden voyage?)

[///M5 2,833]

My last post guys. I guess everyone was right. Ill get nowhere talking to you guys.

You mean your subjective name dropping won't help here. Correct.

As for "give one example just once where real measurements showed something and were wrong"? That ones easy! TITANIC!(you know the UNSINKABLE SHIP that sank on its maiden voyage?)

How do you measure unsinkable?

Considering that was your only response it surely verifies that indeed measurements on drivers are right and you have nothing to refute them. And yep, subjective nonsense won't help. Snake oil is NOT something anyone on here subscribes to.

[ShagggDiesel 25]

My last post guys. I guess everyone was right. Ill get nowhere talking to you guys.

You mean your subjective name dropping won't help here. Correct.

As for "give one example just once where real measurements showed something and were wrong"? That ones easy! TITANIC!(you know the UNSINKABLE SHIP that sank on its maiden voyage?)

How do you measure unsinkable?

Considering that was your only response it surely verifies that indeed measurements on drivers are right and you have nothing to refute them. And yep, subjective nonsense won't help. Snake oil is NOT something anyone on here subscribes to.

QUOTED. lol

[Randal Johnson 544]

[jimmy2345 0]

This is so funny to read. All you haters must realize that hating on a product you have never even heard is obsurd to begin with. Not to mention, there is no reason to hate. If you don't want to spend the money to purchase these drivers....go somewhere else and purchase your speakers. Any rational person would at least listen to the speakers before making an opinion.

Isn't listening to speakers their intended purpose? They weren't designed for the purpose of you testing them so you can stare at measurements your ears clearly don't care about.

I can just imagine you wierdos sitting in your cars listening to whatever brand of speakers you run and thinking about parameters. Boy, you really are enjoying those speakers huh?

[Duran 387]

This is so funny to read. All you haters must realize that hating on a product you have never even heard is obsurd to begin with. Not to mention, there is no reason to hate. If you don't want to spend the money to purchase these drivers....go somewhere else and purchase your speakers. Any rational person would at least listen to the speakers before making an opinion.

Isn't listening to speakers their intended purpose? They weren't designed for the purpose of you testing them so you can stare at measurements your ears clearly don't care about.

I can just imagine you wierdos sitting in your cars listening to whatever brand of speakers you run and thinking about parameters. Boy, you really are enjoying those speakers huh?

Looks like someone doesn't understand Thiele/Small parameters...

[jimmy2345 0]

Really? Is that the impression you got from my impression of you and your click being irrational?

Looks like someone doesn't know what it means be rational. I am sure you are missing out on a lot in life. No doubt.

T/S parameters aren't the end all be all when it comes to choosing a speaker.

Edited November 29, 2010 by jimmy2345

[Duran 387]

Really? Is that the impression you got from my impression of you and your click being irrational?

Looks like someone doesn't know what it means be rational. I am sure you are missing out on a lot in life. No doubt.

That is the tone I get when I read your posts. Being text, emotions are open to interpretation, so if you wish to convey a different emotion try to use a smiley.

T/S parameters aren't the end all be all when it comes to choosing a speaker.

Yes, actually they are. They tell you how a certain driver will perform in a given environment, how is that not everything you need to know?

[Randal Johnson 544]

[Tyan 1]

maybe it sounds good but it looks like a sub that u can buy @ your local grocery store for 24.99$

[jimmy2345 0]

maybe it sounds good but it looks like a sub that u can buy @ your local grocery store for 24.99$

Wow. Do you sit there any stare at your speakers, or even the parameters as the other so called audiophiles on this forum or do you properly install them and listen to them as they were intended?

I personally like to listen to my speakers, and could care less what they look like.

When was the last time you could hear a speaker by looking at it?

[Julian 641]

maybe it sounds good but it looks like a sub that u can buy @ your local grocery store for 24.99$

Wow. Do you sit there any stare at your speakers, or even the parameters as the other so called audiophiles on this forum or do you properly install them and listen to them as they were intended?

I personally like to listen to my speakers, and could care less what they look like.

When was the last time you could hear a speaker by looking at it?

Troll stop trollin'

Simply asking for the parameters over user bias is not a slap in the face for blues.. it's how the speakers will react, T/S within reason do not lie.

[Randal Johnson 544]

maybe it sounds good but it looks like a sub that u can buy @ your local grocery store for 24.99$

Let me guess ... If you've seen one sub, you've seen them all.

or maybe if its not a pure 10 in. "monster" SPL sub, its not worth a krap ... huh ...

Sir, I believe in your theory here about as much as I would believe that the chick on M5///'s signature would actually have anything to do with him ...

[Duran 387]

Keep it civil gentlemen, I don't want to start serving bansandwiches.

[Duran 387]

maybe it sounds good but it looks like a sub that u can buy @ your local grocery store for 24.99$

Let me guess ... If you've seen one sub, you've seen them all.

or maybe if its not a pure 10 in. "monster" SPL sub, its not worth a krap ... huh ...

Sir, I believe in your theory here about as much as I would believe that the chick on M5///'s signature would actually have anything to do with him ...

That's his wife

[Tyan 1]

maybe it sounds good but it looks like a sub that u can buy @ your local grocery store for 24.99$

Let me guess ... If you've seen one sub, you've seen them all.

or maybe if its not a pure 10 in. "monster" SPL sub, its not worth a krap ... huh ...

Sir, I believe in your theory here about as much as I would believe that the chick on M5///'s signature would actually have anything to do with him ...

was there a theory ? i was just sayin it looks cheap for the price

and no .... i wouldnt buy a sub with no motor even if 1000 folks would say how good it sounds

btw. good luck with your gear and competitions

Edited November 29, 2010 by Tyan

[Kanaworm$ 292]

maybe it sounds good but it looks like a sub that u can buy @ your local grocery store for 24.99$

Let me guess ... If you've seen one sub, you've seen them all.

or maybe if its not a pure 10 in. "monster" SPL sub, its not worth a krap ... huh ...

Sir, I believe in your theory here about as much as I would believe that the chick on M5///'s signature would actually have anything to do with him ...

That's his wife