Your input on my component system

[deanmpereira 2]

Could i get some ideas on how to seal up that hole in the door? im a little lost on what you mean? make an enclosure for the driver?

any ideas on components since i shouldn't be spending 500 dollars?

and yes I do plan on spending alot of time with the deadening and with what i explained on what my ideas are. but am i leaving anything major out?

[deanmpereira 2]

just got your last reply sorry, so no need for the recommendations

The tweeter is a little weak - i usually dont like real bright tweeters so weak tweeters is kinda normal for me. do you think they would be to weak to "not keep up with the midbass and 2 FI q's soon to come?"

Considering you are putting the tweeters in your door next to the mid you should listen to them on a sound board rather off axis. - I was actually planning on putting them on the dash up against the window?

[///M5 2,833]

Passive in particular I wouldn't put the tweeters up high, not in a Silverado. Just make sure you have a deck with t/a and put them next to the mid. Your stage height will suffer a bit, but only a few will realize what that even means anyways. Smooth response is a better option. The Silvy dash and pillars suck

Some cutting board material and some rivets will allow you to seal it up. A layer of dampener mat on the seams with some MLV over the top will be perfect. A CCF near anything that will rub will help that noise not be an issue.

[deanmpereira 2]

with tweeters down low with the drivers and nothing up high or in the back wouldnt that make it seem empty? and make the sound very directional?

and so your saying making basically an enclosure for the driver out of cutting board material and some MLV on the back? then a dampener on the seams?

Edited November 14, 2009 by deanmpereira

[///M5 2,833]

Not empty, nor directional. Just a lower stage.

Not quite an enclosure but a wall that allows the driver to be run IB which means that you isolate the back wave from the front wave of the speaker. Normally the back wave has an "enclosure" that is near infinite in size (at least 10x VAS, but more is better) in this case that enclosure is outside as your doors are leaky

[deanmpereira 2]

is there anywhere you can point me on a little more information on this "enclosure" i Think i get the idea but im not sure exactly.

And Im curious to see how i would like the "low stage hight" currently I have premier coaxial in my front doors and if i fade everything to the front the sound seems very low and easy to point out where the sound is "coming from" wont this have the same effect with a pair of components with the tweeters right next to the drivers?

why is it such a bad idea to put the tweeters up high in the dash? it seems to me that that would help with not being able to "tell where the sound is coming from" what is the negatives?

[///M5 2,833]

Just search for Infinite Baffle, it will answer your questions on the "enclosure" or lack there of.

Stage height is easy, flip your home speakers upside down.

The dash in your truck is terrible and has way too much hard material to reflect things all over the place. Separating the tweeter from the mid requires more involved processing than you will have as well and is really only effective run actively. The problem you have with your coaxials is again a bit of a processing issue. You can electronically raise your stage, but at the compromise of effecting your frequency response. Getting some real drivers will really help.

[Impious 1,476]

is there anywhere you can point me on a little more information on this "enclosure" i Think i get the idea but im not sure exactly.

And Im curious to see how i would like the "low stage hight" currently I have premier coaxial in my front doors and if i fade everything to the front the sound seems very low and easy to point out where the sound is "coming from" wont this have the same effect with a pair of components with the tweeters right next to the drivers?

why is it such a bad idea to put the tweeters up high in the dash? it seems to me that that would help with not being able to "tell where the sound is coming from" what is the negatives?

Doors have many problems that kickpanels address and improve upon. Don't use your performance from a door to indicate performance in kickpanels. Also, "low" is a relative term. Good kickpanels will still allow for a soundstage above the dash. Good kickpanels with intelligent use of processing will allow just as high a soundstage as anything else.

There are several problems with separating the tweeters. It can take more advanced processing and skill to obtain good results due to a few different reasons, and as M5 pointed out there are issues with reflective surfaces.

[deanmpereira 2]

so should i stick with the 720 prs? and run them off the amp i currently have at 60 rms?

[mjmarovi 8]

is there anywhere you can point me on a little more information on this "enclosure" i Think i get the idea but im not sure exactly.

And Im curious to see how i would like the "low stage hight" currently I have premier coaxial in my front doors and if i fade everything to the front the sound seems very low and easy to point out where the sound is "coming from" wont this have the same effect with a pair of components with the tweeters right next to the drivers?

why is it such a bad idea to put the tweeters up high in the dash? it seems to me that that would help with not being able to "tell where the sound is coming from" what is the negatives?

Doors have many problems that kickpanels address and improve upon. Don't use your performance from a door to indicate performance in kickpanels. Also, "low" is a relative term. Good kickpanels will still allow for a soundstage above the dash. Good kickpanels with intelligent use of processing will allow just as high a soundstage as anything else.

There are several problems with separating the tweeters. It can take more advanced processing and skill to obtain good results due to a few different reasons, and as M5 pointed out there are issues with reflective surfaces.

thanks impious, glad to see we agree on this.

kick panels FTW! and about power dean, well you can run a 20 watt and sound just fine, more power just gives you more volume, and more power on tap that is unused allows less work for amplifier and generally speaking cleaner signal since amp is nowhere near it's higher output. although signal-to-noise increases at higher volume.

[///M5 2,833]

is there anywhere you can point me on a little more information on this "enclosure" i Think i get the idea but im not sure exactly.

And Im curious to see how i would like the "low stage hight" currently I have premier coaxial in my front doors and if i fade everything to the front the sound seems very low and easy to point out where the sound is "coming from" wont this have the same effect with a pair of components with the tweeters right next to the drivers?

why is it such a bad idea to put the tweeters up high in the dash? it seems to me that that would help with not being able to "tell where the sound is coming from" what is the negatives?

Doors have many problems that kickpanels address and improve upon. Don't use your performance from a door to indicate performance in kickpanels. Also, "low" is a relative term. Good kickpanels will still allow for a soundstage above the dash. Good kickpanels with intelligent use of processing will allow just as high a soundstage as anything else.

There are several problems with separating the tweeters. It can take more advanced processing and skill to obtain good results due to a few different reasons, and as M5 pointed out there are issues with reflective surfaces.

High soundstage with no effects to the frequency response is not possible in either the doors or the kicks. In fact PLD has nothing to do with stage height and generally speaking the higher the speaker the higher the soundstage....hmm, imagine that.

The doors also have many advantages over kicks in particular for midbass response as it is very easy to get the volume you need so you aren't cramping the driver. There are of course ways to expand the volume in the kickpanel but they require more aggressive techniques that those in the doors. It is much easier to get the tweeter closer to the mid and also to not have rattles in the kicks, but if you aren't going to put a ton of effort into the install the doors can benefit you across the board. Much easier to pull off a good install and easier to eq/set it up as well.

[vj226966 0]

if you have money to spend, take better component speakers ! and forget about the rear fill. The music will sound much better and the bass will be more accurate.(just my 2cts).

That way, you only need one amp for the comps. The one you have will have to be stable at 2 ohms with the pair of comps, or you can use a 4 ch amp for all.

I bought two sets of them Pioneer Premiere componets running of a Sherwood 100x4 and my highs could be heard bout 2 blocks away load and clear.The tweets get a little harsh at high volume but otherwise i think they sound good.They love classic rock.Eagles,Clapton.

[Impious 1,476]

High soundstage with no effects to the frequency response is not possible in either the doors or the kicks. In fact PLD has nothing to do with stage height and generally speaking the higher the speaker the higher the soundstage....hmm, imagine that.

PLD does not affect stage height, but stage height can be manipulated if you have low mounted drivers

With my old kickpanels, and you can ask audiolife on here as he heard it several times, I was running a simple passive coincident component set with no EQ and the soundstage was above the dash. The car imaged and staged well with nothing more than properly aimed kickpanels. Probably could have been pretty darn great if I had actually taken the time to really tune it and dial in the install some more.

The doors also have many advantages over kicks in particular for midbass response as it is very easy to get the volume you need so you aren't cramping the driver. There are of course ways to expand the volume in the kickpanel but they require more aggressive techniques that those in the doors. It is much easier to get the tweeter closer to the mid and also to not have rattles in the kicks, but if you aren't going to put a ton of effort into the install the doors can benefit you across the board. Much easier to pull off a good install and easier to eq/set it up as well.

Yes, there are pro's and con's for midbass in doors (if you have time alignment). But my comment was more pointed towards his coaxials in the door (presumably with no time alignment), and the problems associated with running non-midbass drivers in doors (diffraction/reflection from the door panel, different listening axis between left and right drivers, steep off axis of near side driver, etc) that kickpanels would correct and improve upon.

[deanmpereira 2]

So with the install the way its set up right now. should i stick with the premiers? would it be worth the extra dough to get the hybrids? I guess i know what im going to go with. just hope im not into the whole rear fill thing as much as i think i am. or the idea of having the speakers that low...

Edited November 17, 2009 by deanmpereira

[mjmarovi 8]

don't worry about rear fill, and it a lower soundstage, even if you do run into that, is still better than it sounding like speakers are in your left ear or right ear. If you want to try some high-end speakers, then go for it, it is really up to you. Just don't feel like you wasted your money, which goes both ways, don't buy something cheaper, then later want to upgrade and those initial spent funds on the less expensive speakers turn into a waste. (I did this and sucks) But hey that's car audio!

[///M5 2,833]

High soundstage with no effects to the frequency response is not possible in either the doors or the kicks. In fact PLD has nothing to do with stage height and generally speaking the higher the speaker the higher the soundstage....hmm, imagine that.

PLD does not affect stage height, but stage height can be manipulated if you have low mounted drivers

With my old kickpanels, and you can ask audiolife on here as he heard it several times, I was running a simple passive coincident component set with no EQ and the soundstage was above the dash. The car imaged and staged well with nothing more than properly aimed kickpanels. Probably could have been pretty darn great if I had actually taken the time to really tune it and dial in the install some more.

I know it can be manipulated, but the less manipulating the better. In particular for height. I'd rather manipulate other responses and get height the natural way.

[deanmpereira 2]

ok you guys might be getting sick of this question by now it feels like iv asked it a few times.. but it feels like iv gotten many answers as well. which i do understand that a lot of it is personal preference, individual application, and install there has to be a "rule of thumb" or a "in general"

So heres the deal i go around to a bunch of audio shops around this area to listen to speakers only to find all the generic stuff thats on everyones shelfs.. the best i found was the premiers 720prs. and i tested them out on a sound board and really liked the way they sounded "compared to Kicker, Alpine, Kenwood, RF"

Although I do like the Premiers I havn't been able to test them out compared to "higher end" speakers, so my question is would the hybrid clarious speakers sound better in my application?

I can pick up the premiers for 254

and the hybrids for a little over 500

Either way i am spending alot of time and money on MLV, CCF, Baffles, and such and i realize the importance of install.. but my point being Im planning on spending a couple hundred on install materials, alot on a new navigation system, alot on new subs as well as box materials and a new amp for those.. the extra 200 on speakers "comparably" isn't that much of a difference and if the hybrids would be better in my application.. I wouldn't hesitate at all on spending the extra dough do to the fact that these will be the only "highs/Mids" i will be running in my setup.

The only downfall is i would be ordering these 500 dollar speakers on pure recommendation because there is nowhere around here i can listen to the hybrids.. although i do like the hybrids and just by reading up on the company i like what i hear, but i realize "liking what i hear" is what the company is obviously trying to do.

So are the hybrids worth the extra dough? or are the premiers a great set of speakers for the money?

[jcarter1885 995]

Well go buy what you can afford or whats in your budget. Others will say Hybrid is probably better than the Pioneer Premiers but everybody has their preference. Its a coin toss, either save the 200 or spend the 500 and get the Hybrid and test them out yourself. That is what most of us do when we buy speakers nowadays, I dont see why they wont do the job but the only way to tell is listen to them or buy them and install them/go from there. But if you do like the Pioneer Premiers than grab them and have some fun. Just my .02

[///M5 2,833]

I wouldn't spend the extra up front. Guaranteed no matter what you buy you will finally realize what you like and want to change. If you don't then you'd be happy saving the $250

[mjmarovi 8]

I can tell you Hybrid stands by their product and they show along with me agreeing, I have never heard of anyone being disappointed in their sound. what other company offers trade-ins from other companies or their own toward newer gear? I would say call Scott on the phone, if you are lucky he will have a "crushed" box or something he can discount for ya.

[Impious 1,476]

Out of those two options, if I were in your position, I personally would get the Pioneers.

[mjmarovi 8]

Out of those two options, if I were in your position, I personally would get the Pioneers.

I know you said before you haven't heard the Hybrids, have you heard the Pioneers?

If you like a little brighter sounding tweet, go for it.

[deanmpereira 2]

well im still kinda lost on what to do but i guess i can contemplate it for awhile while i start on the sound dampening and big three and stuff. im pretty busy with classes and work so its goin to be a drawn out process...

you guys think the one set of drivers would be suffecient with the two FIq's i plan on running? it seems like you guys are all runin multiple midbass drivers. would it make sense to run a set in kicks and doors being im only doin 6.5's? or do i just need to shut up and do something and quit asking questions?

Id like to thank all of you guys for your help M5, jay cee, Impious, and mj in particular... i feel like the more i learn, the more i want to keep learning. and the more i get interested in all of this.. im sure whatever i decide will probably be changed out within a year by something "new" or more advanced as i continue to learn, but id like this install to be a good "real" first install. Im sure ill be around awhile buggin you guys with some dumb questions. thanks alot.

[mjmarovi 8]

If you plan on replacing or upgrading whatever you use in this install, then don't go with the hybrids yet, save your money, besides nothing to upgrade to if you go straight to hybrid! haha

[///M5 2,833]

I personally would never run more than a single r/l midbass/midrange/tweeter . Two sets has all sorts of bad written all over it.