New Setup, Starting from Zero. Tips Welcomed!

[slim142 9]

Hi

First, Im glad to be part of this community. Ive been reading a couple of threads and I can tell there is a lot of people who know what they are talking about (from what I know). I recently joined a couple of forums but none of them were really helpful. I hope you guys can help me out!.

So Im saving up for a FULL (all options and cooling) 18" BTL. From what I been reading, it looks like I will definitely need at least 2000watts RMS amplifier and an extra battery. Just to know, will the BTL run without an extra battery? In other words, with just the stock?

Thats the sub. Now, for the amplifier, I was thinking about the Hifonics BXi 2010D. However, I just found out a lot of people mention Sundown as their preferred brand. I personally havent really heard much about them. What are your opinions on this brand? Specifically the 1500D and 2000D? The 1500D would be affordable in my case, I would love to go for the 2000D but thats a little high. We will see...

Now, for battery I decided to go for the XS Power 3100 (Since S-M-D has like 10 of those, I thought they were the BEST when it came to choose a battery for your audio system). But I recently read that the Kinetiks HC2600 is actually the best one when it comes to power your audio system? Can somebody please explain to me why would Steve use XS and not the Kinetiks? Anything wrong with them?

After knowing what Amp and Batt to get, now I need to know about the enclosure.

Fi recommends 3.0 to 5.0 cubic feet for the 18" BTL. I have some questions regarding this.

Will the 18" sound good if it is on exactly 3.0?

How much loudness do you gain when comparing 5.0 to 3.0?

If I put it in less, is there any way I can damage the subwoofer?

Im currently in the process of getting a car and I was about to get a Toyota Corolla S (Sports), but now that I have plans to put a good audio system, I think a Corolla will be waaaaay too small for a BTL. In fact, somebody told me it would fit in the trunk (true or not?), but that because of space, it wouldnt sound as good. Now, Im starting to drops plan for the corolla and go for a Crossover. The reason why I dont go full size SUV is because they use too much gas and I cant afford to spend that much gas on a car which 90% of the time I will be driving myself (to go to my university). I think a crossover does the job. Trunk of most crossovers (Edge, Murano, Venza) are big enough (correct me if Im wrong) for 2 18" BTLs pointing up. The rest is just replacing the speakers and tweeters.

Now moving on to one of the most important factors (from what I read). The alternator.

Now, I have almost no knowledge about them because Im not into cars and I just recently found out that I might need to change it too. If I do, I wouldnt mind because I read it is one of the most important parts and I dont want to be left with no power in the middle of the road or with dimming lights.

So, whats a good alternator?

I think $300 sounds reasonable since thats how much a new battery (DC2600 or XS 3100) cost.

I believe I have to pick a certain model for my specific car right?

How many amps for the alternator (MINIMUM) for (2) 18" BTLs? (I say 2 because I want to be ready when I add a second BTL)

Whats a good place to buy them, any specific brand?

I know its a pretty long read, but I want to make sure I make 0 mistakes. I currently have a system and I got really pissed off when I found out I could have gotten something MUCH better. Im really dissapointed at my system and I decided that I was going to read and ask A LOT before spending another dollar when it came to audio system. I hope I get the help I need from this community!

Looking forward for your comments!

Thanks

Slim142

Edited November 2, 2009 by slim142

[jcarter1885 995]

Glad you could join us and thank you for following the rules when posting. The reason why XS Powermaster batteries are better because I think they have the highest float charge out of all the brands (the others will still do the job and well at that).

The Sundown SAZ-1500d will do fine on a BTL, but since you plan on getting two why dont you just save up and buy one SAZ-3500D but either way will do the job.

[Mac N Cheese 90]

yeah i dont know what powermaster bats float at but my kinetik floats at 12.8.

x2 on SAZ 3500D

Sounds like you know what you want..thats good

[jcarter1885 995]

yeah i dont know what powermaster bats float at but my kinetik floats at 12.8.

x2 on SAZ 3500D

Sounds like you know what you want..thats good

Shizzzon said they float at 13-13.2volts cant remember but in that range (not that big of a differnce but why some say there better).

[mjmarovi 8]

Glad you could join us and thank you for following the rules when posting. The reason why XS Powermaster batteries are better because I think they have the highest float charge out of all the brands (the others will still do the job and well at that).

The Sundown SAZ-1500d will do fine on a BTL, but since you plan on getting two why dont you just save up and buy one SAZ-3500D but either way will do the job.

alternator- the bigger the better, IMO ohio generator builds the best out there, and if you give them a call they will be more than willing to help you out on designing and building an alternator to suit your needs.

batts- Batcap, XS powermasters, and Kinetiks are really the best 3 pretty unanimously. as for which is the best, opinions vary, the owner of Ohio Generator along with myself agree that Kinetik is overall the best batt, but any choice from the three companies I mentioned would do great.

amps- SUNDOWN FTW!! lol if you want the system to last in the future, and not have to upgrade to a higher quality amp in the future go with something nice like a sundown from the start. a single BTL when installed correctly can handle even up to 4kw daily. of course any sundown SAZ series is strappable, and the minimum I would recommend on one is a 1500d, so you could always buy more and strap them together in the future.

subs- BTL is a good choice, Ascendant Audio Mayhems are great to, built and designed from the same guys. as for the air space, that would be for a 15" 18's you should really use 6-8 cuft, and to hit the lows well and be more musical you will want to be closer to 7.5-8.5 cuft per sub.

install- who is doing all of this for you? or are you doing it? be sure to allow money in budget for install materials and wiring, this is a decent sized install you are talking about so I hope you feel comfortable doing it, if not then we can make some recommendations for you there as well.

[ralstonballa2413 20]

I have owned that hifonics amp your looking at and it is a very good budget amp but I had a few problems with it in the few months I owned it. I switched to sundown and have had no problems with the products yet. If you are looking into sundown amps and have a tight budget you can also look into db-r. They sell refurbished sundown amps for pretty good prices and they work great. I have the 100.4 and the 1500 and got both from there.

I noticed you didnt say anything about your wiring. Whatever you go for with for your electrical you will want to make sure to do the big 3. I doubt youll be able to run even a single 18" btl on just a stock battery so I would advise doing all your electrical upgrades now especially if you are looking into getting another one in the future.

[Mac N Cheese 90]

my parents own a Murano..those trunks are BEEFY!

[KU40 173]

Excellent first post, I commend you on doing your research first. Might be one of the best first posts we've ever had on here.

As for the BTL being fully powered on a stock electrical system, that depends entirely on the specs of the stock electrical system. In a Corolla, absolutely no way. Those things have, what, like an 80 amp alternator and the smallest battery they could fit in there? It would definitely need beefed up if you want to run 2000 watts RMS to that sub. You could probably get a 400 watt amp and not have to upgrade the electrical system, but at that point I think you would crave the full potential of the sub. I would also be very leery that a Corolla would have enough space for an 18" BTL. As for choking off the bass, that all depends on how you configure the box. If the box takes up most of the trunk, you will most likely be better served facing the subwoofer forward and blocking off the rest of the trunk behind the front baffle of the sub. That effectively takes the trunk out of the entire sound equation.

Sundown is a great company. They have a forum on this site and you can even talk to the owner of the company directly in there. Great customer service and great product. With car audio, you get what you pay for.

As for box size, that's really a preference of your listening tastes. Different sized boxes sound differently. Larger boxes are more efficient for sound output and can play lower notes. But as you increase box size, mechanical power handling decreases. However, box size alone will NEVER hurt a speaker. You could put that 18" in a 0.5 cubic foot box and no harm would be done. It just wouldn't sound very good.

[slim142 9]

Thanks everyone for the help. Yes, I did spend a good time (since january) reading and just reviewing whats good and not. I would really like to replace my system ASAP, but gotta save up first. Any coupons around here? LOL

The 3500D looks GOOD! But its way out of my budget right now. I need to buy all the other parts too (I dont have any, Ive just planned what I want to get). If I ever need more than 2000watts RMS on the BTL (which will probably happen, but not the first day I know that for sure), then I can just sell (either 1500 or 2000 whichever I have by then) and go for the big 3500. (I just saw a 4500, unbelievable)

Just to make sure, the BTL is safe up to 4000watts RMS or can handle more? I will most probably be playing it daily so want to keep it in the safe zone.

For the battery, I guess I will just go for the Kinetiks HC2600. I have seen it in various BTL installations so it should be good enough. Thats the best model from Kinetiks right?

As for the alternator, I will keep Ohio generators in mind. I just need to see what car Im getting first.

As for the BTL enclosure, I think you are right mjmarovi. I will (Most) probably end up using between 5-8 cubic feet. Dont want to be in the border line and I definitely want to be able to hit those lows.

And YES, I missed the wiring lol. I was planning on using Kicker 1/0 gauge cable. I know kicker is overpriced but I mean, after all the money Im spending, I thought I should also keep the cables in the premium side since I dont want any surprises later on. Now, any recommendations on the cables? Maybe Im missing something here, most people on other forums said that it doesnt really matter what brand it is as long as you know the thickness that you need. More input here would be appreciated.

And about installation. I will most probably let somebody do it. Ive never done an installation before and I would like somebody with experience do it. I live in North Miami Beach and I only know of one place, but something tells me they are not the most appropiate people who should install my system. By the time I get all my devices, I will hopefully have a place or person who knows about alternator, battery, amp installations. Anybody knows a shop or garage around Miami-Dade/Broward zone, I would REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR HELP.

Hey Miller, definitely will do the Big 3. First thing as soon as I get my car going to the shop and get those upgraded. Im pretty lost in this Big 3 thing. I understand is replacing the cables that go from batt to alternator and so on, but I have some questions regarding this. Like do you use 1/0 gauge cables (same ones for amplifiers) to do this? Should a mechanic do this? Is it an expensive upgrade? Thats a weak point for me right now, I tried looking for some guides but they are pretty long and kinda lose me but will dedicate some time to it later on.

KU40, really appreciate your comment. Thanks for that helpful last sentence. I always thought a small box could blew (or severely damage) your sub if it was too small.

[jcarter1885 995]

Big 3 is usually done in 1/0 awg wire and is pretty easy to do depending on your location of alternator and battery. For wire I use Kicker Hyperflex in my last install and in my new one I will be using KnuKonceptz wire, cheaper and supposedly more strands than Kicker.

[KU40 173]

You do NOT need 4000 watts for the BTL. It is rated at 2000 watts RMS. you will gain little by trying to give it 4000 and just exponentially increase the chance that you will blow it. If you build a correct box it will give full output with 2000 watts.

Ironically, smaller enclosures actually protect your woofer better than larger enclosures. At least mechanically. Smaller enclosures provide a more stiff air spring behind the sub, thus controlling the cone of the sub a little better and allowing for better mechanical power handling without overexcursion. The thermal rating of the coil becomes the more prominent issue at that point.

[slim142 9]

Yeah, I definitely want to use the best specially for the big 3. Will stick to Kicker if there is no problem then.

Ok so 4000watts its actually too much for a BTL? I will definitely try to stick to 2000watts for the first months mainly because 1) cant afford more than that 2) Dont want to damage it the first days I start playing it 3) will most probably give me enough bass since this will be my first time with an 18"

I will most probably end up with a box that is between 5-8 cubic feet. I think Im going for 32Hz. Is 32Hz a good number? Will that be enough for most stuff that I listen to? (70% Rap, other 30% psychedelic, hard style)

EDIT: Also, I would like to know something. Why are the prices of the refurbished amps so low compared to the new ones? I mean, its great to see db-r giving a huge opportunity to everybody to try them out, but with such a low price (when compared to new ones) it makes me believe for a moment those amps were abused or pushed to the extreme. Please some comment regarding this I would appreciate.

Edited November 3, 2009 by slim142

[topgun 262]

Yeah, I definitely want to use the best specially for the big 3. Will stick to Kicker if there is no problem then.

Ok so 4000watts its actually too much for a BTL? I will definitely try to stick to 2000watts for the first months mainly because 1) cant afford more than that 2) Dont want to damage it the first days I start playing it 3) will most probably give me enough bass since this will be my first time with an 18"

I will most probably end up with a box that is between 5-8 cubic feet. I think Im going for 32Hz. Is 32Hz a good number? Will that be enough for most stuff that I listen to? (70% Rap, other 30% psychedelic, hard style)

EDIT: Also, I would like to know something. Why are the prices of the refurbished amps so low compared to the new ones? I mean, its great to see db-r giving a huge opportunity to everybody to try them out, but with such a low price (when compared to new ones) it makes me believe for a moment those amps were abused or pushed to the extreme. Please some comment regarding this I would appreciate.

Wire is wire. As long as you can bend it to where it needs to go don't worry about it, all more expensive wire does is sound cooler on the internet.

If this is your first time with that much power, yes, 4kw is probably to much and you will end up ruining something.

Refurbs are always going to be cheaper than new, sometimes quite a bit because they are not new, they are used, fixed, looked over, whatever be their prior life be, they have been checked out to insure they are in proper working condition. They normally don't carry the same warranty as a new one, or be as good of shape (general statement, not only pertaining to the amps in question). Personally I wouldn't worry about it being a refurbished amplifier, it is going to be checked out to make sure that everything performs as desired so their shouldn't be problems, remember though, it is still a piece of used equipment and stuff happens.

[Enellz 2]

I want say much on tips since you've been more than helped. However, where are you located? Maybe someone on here could help you out, and maybe for free 99, lol.

[SpeakerBoy 64]

Nice choice on equipment! Sounds like you have it all figured out. The most important thing i would say is: Do it right the first time, and you won't have to redo it for a long time, especially with these products. What do you have planned out for a front stage?

[ralstonballa2413 20]

For this being your first high powered setup I would stay with only the 2000d as your max for the amp and that is a perfect fit for the BTL for daily needs.

For the kenetik battery the HC2600 should be just fine. There is one more higher I believe its the HC3800. On the kenetic website they can calculate what battery they would recomend, but for the most part if you run the HC2600 it should support a system up to 2600 watts.

Kicker wiring is just fine to use but I know it carries a large price tag. If you look into Knukonceptz wiring, preferably the flex (more expensive), it is still cheaper than Kicker and is great wire, but if youre set on Kicker than go with that. As for the size of wiring 1/0 should be perfect for doing the big 3, the wiring to the second battery, and the wiring to your amp. Dont waste your time or money with anything less than 1/0 especially since you are looking at possibly upgrading in the future.

If you have someone else install your setup you will want to make sure you have a lot of money to cover that. I wouldn't suggest doing anything that you don't think you can do, especially because you are working with the vehicles electrical system, but many of these things can be easy to do with a lot of research and asking people who have similar cars or who have done this a lot for some tips or tricks they know.

I think youll like the box being tuned to around 32hz. Gives a lot of sound out and still sounds pretty good doing it if the box is made correctly.

I hope youve learned a little about what you want now and can start finding out how much you need to save up to start this project.

[slim142 9]

Ok, with that said I will definitely stick to 2k watts RMS.

Im not sure if I should run the risk and go for a refurbished 2000 or just buy it new. I think the warranty makes up for some of the extra, but would still prefer a new one. We will see...

Im located in North Miami Beach, Florida. If anybody knows a person or shop that knows is serious about this, I would really appreciate if you could let me know about him/them. I seriously wouldnt like to touch anything when it comes to Big 3, install of batt and amp since I dont have experience there. However, wouldnt like to get ripped off either just because of my ignorance when it comes to installation.

subBoy, what you mean front stage? As what do I want for speakers and headunit?

If so, I was going to ask you guys what was a good brand/model because first I was going for the best alpine receiver (single dash, no dvd or screens because $1k can be spent on the best single dash with all the components and I need a receiver with RCAs as soon as I install the BTL).

So, its alpine good for receivers? I got Eclipse as a recommended brand, but dont know much about them.

For speakers, I guess most crossovers use 5 1/2 in the front doors and 6x8 in the rear doors. Speakers will come later as I will need to start from zero (again) after buying my BTL project.

About the kinetic battery, I really meant HC2400. Is there such thing as HC2600? For some reason I decided to call it 2600 instead of 2400 LOL. I looked on amazon for that battery you mentioned (HC 3800) but couldnt find it. Is it out already?

About the gauge cable. Everything will be 1/0 no doubt.

How much does it cost for somebody to install an alternator? Does it depend on the car?

I mean, you guys say its easy, but its 3 things combined. The Big 3, Amp and Batt so we are talking about a person that will spend a good time on the car (maybe an entire day) installing all three. But like I said, I will look around first. I dont want to overpay for this, but I dont want to go to a cheap garage either.

Now, its time to save money for the big project. Im working really hard to save up my money. Im in college and we are not in the best economy situation right now so we will see how that goes.

Really appreciate everyones input. Now before going offtopic, I would like to know if its ok if I ask a couple of questions of my current system to see if you guys see anything wrong or that can be improved. Im really dissapointed at what I have right now but if a thing or two can be done to improve it, why not

[mjmarovi 8]

Having the box built and ready to go by the time you get there, I could do it all in a day for you. I live in south Fort Myers, so depending exactly where you at ~2 hours away. Try floridaspl.com forum, i'm on there too, it's a good forum and you can see if someone is closer to you, but my offer is on the table.

No, a 2600 does not exist. Best place for buying kinetiks that I've found is www.onlinecarstereo.com I am a very good customer of their's, and that's def. where I buy all my batts. Best prices and quick free shipping!

head units...well for the most part IMO Alpine and Eclipse are about as good as it gets, besides finding those few decks out there for SQ competition like Macintosh, Nakamichi, and alike. but those are crazy expensive and def. not a need for this install.

Personally I run the Alpine CDA-9887 with built-in xover, and absolutely love it. I had a rf 360.2 processor before, and this deck blows that processor away. (which was paired with a different alpine deck.) the 9887 is alpine's best singe-din that is not a DVD player, and it runs ~400. Well, they have an F1 status still I believe, but yet again no need for this install. for eclipse look into the MKII. that would be the competitor for alpines 9887 with built-in xover. (which you may not need, but it is nice to have)

Pioneer makes a few decent decks, but overall that company has had many ground issues and background noise problems with decks.

you seem to be on the right track with everything else...

[slim142 9]

Im exactly on North Miami Beach which is right next to the beach. If the trip is 2 hours I wouldnt mind driving there on a friday and return on a sunday. Of course, we would have a more detailed talk before. Will keep you in mind!

I have seen so many bad reviews about onlinecarstereo.com that I kinda got scared buying from them. People seem to be having issues with what they order and their customer service.

About the deck, I like the Alpine. Is the iMPRINT thing really needed? Kinda expensive, dont know if its pure bells and whistles or if its really worth it.

Will also check onto the Eclipse to see the interface and looks, then will just choose the one that looks best.

Cant wait to get the money for this system...

Edited November 4, 2009 by slim142

[mjmarovi 8]

I personally have not used the imprint, so no real feedback on that, but you can always opt into a dedicated eq after you get your system in and figure out how it is. Alpine and Eclipse are both great companies, and IMO on a practical price range the two best decks out there. The 9887 is well worth every penny, but if you don't plan on a running an active setup then the 9886 is enough to fit the bill.

Just let me know man, always fun to put some beat in someone's vehicle. By the time you have money and get equipment for your's mine should be done so I can give a demo of what is possible from a trunk

[slim142 9]

Didnt quiet get the "active setup"

But yeah would definitely want to get a demo from somebody with a killer system. The MAX I have experienced is an unknown branded 15" with 6 stock components on a friends GTI so you can tell any aftermarket powered car out there will be a "WOW" for me haha

[mjmarovi 8]

Didnt quiet get the "active setup"

But yeah would definitely want to get a demo from somebody with a killer system. The MAX I have experienced is an unknown branded 15" with 6 stock components on a friends GTI so you can tell any aftermarket powered car out there will be a "WOW" for me haha

lol you would have shit yourself with my old setup than...and it wasn't anything too special...

"active setup" means using xover's before amps receive signal. in an active setup amplifiers are connected directly to the speakers. so the amp is told, or if it has a built-in xover then is used to cancel out what frequency you want said speaker to receive, and the amplifiers powers that speaker.

in a passive setup (most common) the amplifier is wired or powers a "passive crossover" which is then connected to the speakers. coaxial speakers have bass-blockers built in which helps them handle power directly from an amplifier without the need of a any crossover. that is also why they are the lowest quality sounding speakers.

I could go on for days about croosovers and difference in passive/active benefits and what not as that's my bread and butter but unless you really want to know I'll save it. since you did have to ask, I would say stick to a more basic deck. something with at least a 7-band eq with 4 volt pre-outs will suit your needs just fine. stay away from crap brands like dual, and really stay away from any entry-level model from any company. for 200 bucks there are plenty of options out there for great quality decks.

[slim142 9]

Dont worry man there wont be any cheap parts on my system. Dual was never in my mind at all even when I saw their cheap prices on BB lol.

Using dedicated EQs or Crossovers, thats not for me yet. I mainly want to listen to my system with whats most common. Receiver->Amp->Speakers/Sub.

The 9887 must have a pretty good audio processor and EQ right? Hopefully it also has Front/Rear/Subwoofer RCAs. Still need to research it a little more but I like what I hear and see from it so far.

Hey if you decide to come to Miami Beach or anywhere around the Dade/Broward zone, let me know cause I would really like to hear a real system!

[mjmarovi 8]

For what you get and the price, the 9887 is the absolutely the best deck IMO. You jump up another 2-300 dollars to get something that is really just comparable. Like I believe I said earlier, or maybe in another thread, there are better decks but you definitely pay for it. You can really spend less and get same results you are looking for. the 9886 is a very similar deck just without all the crossover features. and eclipse and clarion also make some great decks for ~200

[Mac N Cheese 90]

For what you get and the price, the 9887 is the absolutely the best deck IMO. You jump up another 2-300 dollars to get something that is really just comparable. Like I believe I said earlier, or maybe in another thread, there are better decks but you definitely pay for it. You can really spend less and get same results you are looking for. the 9886 is a very similar deck just without all the crossover features. and eclipse and clarion also make some great decks for ~200

x2... I would recommend Alpine decks. Im using the 9883 and love it