Removing speakers from rear deck

[jcarter1885 995]

So after listening to M5 and a couple other people on this forum who made great points to remove my 6.5" speakers from my rear deck I am glad you guys opened me up to a whole different world of sound in my car. Those 2-6.5" opening allow for so much bass to come through into the cabin of my car from the trunk its ridiculous, more ouput and better sound from my subs was gained. I used to be one of those guys who wanted millions of speakers in the interior of the car no matter where I could put them. I learned that the right placement, power, control(EQ'ing) would make up for more sound than a billion speakers in the ca (one friend used to tell me before I joined this site that any speaker I through in the car no matter if it was 2" to 6" would help out with the overall sound and would benefit, I called him yesterday to disagree and tell him my new findings). I have a quick question for you guys, I am going to fiberglass my rear deck after I dampen it:

#1- I will dampen the rear deck but leave the two speaker holes(factory ones) in the rear deck uncovered so I will have a way to allow more bass in my cabin since I keep my seats up most of the time when playing music or driving around. I know that everybody on this site can find an advantage or disadvantage on why things should be done to help out with car audio, would this be an advantage or disadvantage for dampening everythind on the rear deck topside(cabin) and bottomside(trunk) but leave the speaker holes open for sound and pressure to get through?

If it will benefit me to leave the holes open then I will just fiberglass around it which I think will add some creativity, just wanted to ask before I started on my rear deck. Thankx for input and .02's.

[KU40 173]

What do you hope to gain by fiberglassing the rear deck? Just for looks? I don't think that the dampening or fiberglassing will have any effect on the sound other than the back deck won't rattle as much, if it did before.

[jcarter1885 995]

What do you hope to gain by fiberglassing the rear deck? Just for looks? I don't think that the dampening or fiberglassing will have any effect on the sound other than the back deck won't rattle as much, if it did before.

Im actually gonna have 4-6.5" or 8" speakers for midbass right behind my back seats, in the front half of the rear deck so that is the reason it calls for fibergalssing since the speakers are to deep to fit onto the stock panel piece that is there(well I should of clarified it will be a fiberglass enclosure not just fiberglassing rear deck for no reason).

[///M5 2,833]

While I am glad that removing what you did has helped so far, you shouldn't take only part of the advice and apply it to what you want. Your current plans are a bit confused and won't really net you what you want.

Before you buy anything you should describe your goals. I can tell you a couple hard facts. The Seas 27's you are planning are NOT for you, the 4 6.5" midbasses you planned won't do what you want, and the other choices that come with will probably frighten me as well. I understand your goals are different from mine and won't push what I'd do, but you need to step back and realize that you are taking bits and pieces of recommendations that don't pertain to your install and mis-applying them. Removing the rears was a great first step, now let's fix the rest of your ideas.

[Notorious97200 339]

You know you'd better follow M5's advice.

He sure knows what he is talking about!

[topgun 262]

Read ///M5's post very carefully and apply it.

[jcarter1885 995]

While I am glad that removing what you did has helped so far, you shouldn't take only part of the advice and apply it to what you want. Your current plans are a bit confused and won't really net you what you want.

Before you buy anything you should describe your goals. I can tell you a couple hard facts. The Seas 27's you are planning are NOT for you, the 4 6.5" midbasses you planned won't do what you want, and the other choices that come with will probably frighten me as well. I understand your goals are different from mine and won't push what I'd do, but you need to step back and realize that you are taking bits and pieces of recommendations that don't pertain to your install and mis-applying them. Removing the rears was a great first step, now let's fix the rest of your ideas.

I respect everything you say and thats what Im on here for, the best insight in helping me get what I want. The goals I have for interior speakers is to be loud, really loud (I know that I will sacrifice imaging and some accuracy for this but I just dont want my car to be all bass neither). If there are better ways to go about this then Im open to them.

Current setup for interior speakers:

Front Driver Door: 2-Eminence Alpha 6A (channel 1 on SAX125.2)

Front Passenger Door: 2-Eminence Alpha 6A (channel 1 on SAX125.2)

Rear Driver Door: 2-Eminece Alpha 6A (channel 2 on SAX125.2)

Rear Passenger Door: 2-Eminece Alpha 6A (channel 2 on SAX125.2)

1 Pair of Boss Audio Tweeters TW12 (on factory speaker wire till I get another amp for them but definantly plan on upgrading them in the future)

What I was planning on adding:

3 pairs of Seas PrestigeTweeters for (one tweeter on each pillar-A,B)

2 pairs of Eminence Alpha 6c (4 channel amp, Sax 100.4)

I dont want to come off as being negative or a jerk Im just not going to have only a front stage in my car(Im willing to re-look at whats on my addition list and scratch what may be scratched but Im leaving the 2 speakers in each door alone) like alot of individuals in this forum. It may be the right way to go and I understand a good front stage is all that you need but thats one adjustment I wont make but open to anything else that can be said about my addition plans. Thanks M5.

Why wont the Seas work for me?

I meant mid-ranges(Eminence Alpha 6A) and not mid-bass for the rear deck, my apologies.

Any suggestions, reccomendations or advice please state and share M5 and we can go from there. This is why I made this post also to get your say-so which I know you have alot and Im very appreciative for. Last time I made a topic about my interior speakers, you gave me great advice that I used and made alot of corrections in the car that day so thank you once again.

**********(Im thinking about doing without the 4-Eminence Alpha 6c's for the rear deck which means no fiberglassing and dropping one pair or two pairs of tweeters; I might just get another SAX125.2 for the current interior speakers so the load on each amp per channel is 4 and not 2.)********** just some suggestions I thought about while typing this up.

Edited August 18, 2009 by jay-cee

[jcarter1885 995]

What tweeters would you recommend M5 or think are geared for my direction?

[lithium 358]

ewww let me beat m5 to it. here's alittle physics lesson. Do not add multiple speakers playing the same frequencies! when you add more speakers that play the same frequency you get cancellation. which is one of the reason to remove the rear speakers. (if you want the sciency answer w/ pictures and stuff i can get that for you)

in short adding more speakers wont make your car louder.

what your going to want to do is power 1 set of component speaker (or, imo the better option involving an active setup), a mid and tweeter per side (or a mid, midbass, and tweeter for a 3way), and throw alot of power at them. the problem is you have to find a set that can handle the power. (you can stick a pair in the rear doors, i would just stick some coaxil and put a switch on them so you can turn them off when you dont have other ppl riding with you. i dont see any reason you need them back there otherwise)

idk how loud you need your speakers to be... but ill give you the warning now that you are, most likely, about to cause permanent hearing loss....

to be blunt, your list of stuff below in a waste of cash and wont meet your goal...

Edited August 18, 2009 by lithium

[jcarter1885 995]

ewww let me beat m5 to it. here's alittle physics lesson. Do not add multiple speakers playing the same frequencies! when you add more speakers that play the same frequency you get cancellation. which is one of the reason to remove the rear speakers. (if you want the sciency answer w/ pictures and stuff i can get that for you)

in short adding more speakers wont make your car louder.

what your going to want to do is power 1 set of component speaker (or, imo the better option involving an active setup), a mid and tweeter per side (or a mid, midbass, and tweeter for a 3way), and throw alot of power at them. the problem is you have to find a set that can handle the power. (you can stick a pair in the rear doors, i would just stick some coaxil and put a switch on them so you can turn them off when you dont have other ppl riding with you. i dont see any reason you need them back there otherwise)

idk how loud you need your speakers to be... but ill give you the warning now that you are, most likely, about to cause permanent hearing loss....

to be blunt, your list of stuff below in a waste of cash and wont meet your goal...

Well I definantly appreciate your input, after looking over some things and listening to you and M5's input; Im going to keep current setup as is.

Current setup for interior speakers:

Front Driver Door: 2-Eminence Alpha 6A (channel 1 on SAX125.2)

Front Passenger Door: 2-Eminence Alpha 6A (channel 2 on SAX125.2)

Rear Driver Door: 2-Eminece Alpha 6A (channel 3 on future 4 channel amp)

Rear Passenger Door: 2-Eminece Alpha 6A (channel 4 on future 4 channel amp)

I will do as Lithium states and just have the channels 3 and 4 off until someone is in the backseat so they will not be playing (I went outside and had all doors playing and compared it to just the front two doors playing and enjoyed the latter of the two better. So Im now in need of some tweeters to go with my front stage, more than likely they will be powered by a SAX100.4 on channels 1 & 2. I want a nice sounding pair of tweeters and I prefer soft dome tweeters (not a fan of bullet horn tweeters, bullet tweetersm horn tweeters, etc.). Suggestions would be appreciated, thanks guys for your input because Im learning.

[Notorious97200 339]

It starts to look less "confuse" !

It makes sense now, don't you think?

good luck

[///M5 2,833]

You still need tweeters, but instead of the Seas perhaps you should look at a set of the Image Dynamics Horns.

http://www.imagedynamicsusa.com/products.php?Family_Id=5&Product_Id=23

They'll more than keep up with the Alpha's and you only need a single pair.

Before adding midbass you should determine what frequencies you feel you lack and then we can address those.

[jcarter1885 995]

It starts to look less "confuse" !

It makes sense now, don't you think?

good luck

Naw because it never was confusing to me in the first place considering I had it all planned and mapped out, I usually draw my system out before I start on it but I guess it would be confusing to someone who doesnt not whats going on or isn't apart of the installation.

You still need tweeters, but instead of the Seas perhaps you should look at a set of the Image Dynamics Horns.

http://www.imagedynamicsusa.com/products.php?Family_Id=5&Product_Id=23

They'll more than keep up with the Alpha's and you only need a single pair.

Before adding midbass you should determine what frequencies you feel you lack and then we can address those.

Are there any other tweeter(or just horns) suggestions that you could throw out, looking into those as we speak. Just trying to see if those are the only ones that work or would those just be my best bet.

Im not quite sure if I want or need to add mid-bass to my system yet, not saying I dont need to at all just unsure(the only time Im lacking some bass is when my subs are off and I notice that my alpha's are mid-range and not mid-basses at all). But besides that I can live without mid-bass since 100% of the time my subs are on and if im wrond or you see that I may need some mid-bass then please fill me, thanks man.

So far these are some other options Ive seen (am I going in the right direction):

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_229_293&products_id=8475

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_229_293&products_id=8322

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_229_293&products_id=286

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_229_293&products_id=290

Edited August 18, 2009 by jay-cee

[///M5 2,833]

None of those are suited for your application. You really need the actual "horn" and the more efficient the better in particular with your goals.

Just as an FYI. The ID's are 100dB efficient, the Seas 92dB. This means with the same power going to each tweeter you would need around 7 Seas tweeters to be as loud as one of the ID's. On top of that the cancellation with that many drivers could really screw up how things sound. There are potentially other solutions, but not ones that I have heard in a car.

If you have more space there are a ton of true pro-audio solutions but they all require even more space. Conveniently the ID's fit nicely under most dashes.

[jcarter1885 995]

None of those are suited for your application. You really need the actual "horn" and the more efficient the better in particular with your goals.

Just as an FYI. The ID's are 100dB efficient, the Seas 92dB. This means with the same power going to each tweeter you would need around 7 Seas tweeters to be as loud as one of the ID's. On top of that the cancellation with that many drivers could really screw up how things sound. There are potentially other solutions, but not ones that I have heard in a car.

If you have more space there are a ton of true pro-audio solutions but they all require even more space. Conveniently the ID's fit nicely under most dashes.

I couldnt find the Image Dynamics CD1e that you had mention earlier, so which one of these would work (boy do they have some price tags on them) and what would you think would be a good amp for them (SAX125.2, SAX50.4 or SAX 100.4)?

http://www.woofersetc.com/p5003/CD1-V3--Image-Dynamics-Controlled-Dispersion-Speaker-System.htm

http://www.woofersetc.com/p5004/CD1MH-V3--Image-Dynamics-Reduced-Size-Mini-Horns.htm

http://www.woofersetc.com/p5005/CD1PRO--Image-Dynamics-Ultra-Compact-Competition-HLCD-Speaker-System.htm

http://www.woofersetc.com/p5007/CD2COMP--Image-Dynamics-Competition-HLCD-Speaker-System-with-Titanium-Alloy-Driver.htm

http://www.woofersetc.com/p5008/CD2COMP-MH--Image-Dynamics-MiniHorn-Reduced-Size-Competition-HLCD-Speaker-System.htm

http://www.woofersetc.com/p6817/Ultra-ProCompF--Image-Dynamics-Ultra-Competition-HLCD-Full-Size-Horn.htm

http://www.woofersetc.com/p6818/Ultra-ProCompM--Image-Dynamics-Ultra-Competition-HLCD-MIni-Size-Horn.htm

Appreciate your help.

[jcarter1885 995]

I just switched my door speakers from the 8 ohm version to the 4 ohm version of Eminence (Alpha-6A to Alpha-6C) so know my speakers drop down to a 2 ohm load on each channel (their rms is 100watts a piece and the channel puts out 225 rms). This sounds way better than what I had in their at first, the speakers that were in their were 8 ohms, 100rms each and dropped down to 4 ohms on each channel (getting only 125 rms between the two, thats why I wanted it louder since I was only close to half their output).

Edited August 19, 2009 by jay-cee

[///M5 2,833]

Any of those horns will be a way better choice, no need to start by dropping your wallet either. At the levels you want to listen to things even the cheap ones will be fine...and with their sensitivity you won't have concerns "keeping up" with the Alpha's. You might find yourself wanting some extra eq to tame their response, but that is personal.

[jcarter1885 995]

Any of those horns will be a way better choice, no need to start by dropping your wallet either. At the levels you want to listen to things even the cheap ones will be fine...and with their sensitivity you won't have concerns "keeping up" with the Alpha's. You might find yourself wanting some extra eq to tame their response, but that is personal.

I just joined the Image Dynamics Forum to get some more info on the horns since I cant find any info on thier website, so I appreciate ya for the help. As Im doing more research Im noticing that the Eminence Alpha-6C are more geared to mid-ranges than mid-bass speakers, as I read on Image Dynamics forum this is what Eric said "The horn is a very high efficiency speaker with controlled dispersion pattern designed for the inside of the car. ( model dependent) They play from 600 hz up to 20 Khz so they cover the range of a small midrange and tweeter but at much higher efficiency. So no tweeter necessary just use with a good efficient mid-bass driver."

So should I look at switching my speakers out with some better mid-bass speakers, add-on some mid-bass speakers to this install or would my current Eminence's(81-5,500Hz with a paper cone) be acceptable? The Eminence Alpha's really sound like computer speaker bass instead of some nice mid-bass but Im satisfied with how they sound within the realm of my system, but if I were to turn my subs off its another story; basically Im just wondering what would you reccomend or do in this case? Thankx

Edited August 19, 2009 by jay-cee

[lithium 358]

Any of those horns will be a way better choice, no need to start by dropping your wallet either. At the levels you want to listen to things even the cheap ones will be fine...and with their sensitivity you won't have concerns "keeping up" with the Alpha's. You might find yourself wanting some extra eq to tame their response, but that is personal.

I just joined the Image Dynamics Forum to get some more info on the horns since I cant find any info on thier website, so I appreciate ya for the help. As Im doing more research Im noticing that the Eminence Alpha-6C are more geared to mid-ranges than mid-bass speakers, as I read on Image Dynamics forum this is what Eric said "The horn is a very high efficiency speaker with controlled dispersion pattern designed for the inside of the car. ( model dependent) They play from 600 hz up to 20 Khz so they cover the range of a small midrange and tweeter but at much higher efficiency. So no tweeter necessary just use with a good efficient mid-bass driver."

So should I look at switching my speakers out with some better mid-bass speakers, add-on some mid-bass speakers to this install or would my current Eminence's(81-5,500Hz with a paper cone) be acceptable? The Eminence Alpha's really sound like computer speaker bass instead of some nice mid-bass but Im satisfied with how they sound within the realm of my system, but if I were to turn my subs off its another story; basically Im just wondering what would you reccomend or do in this case? Thankx

what kind of deadening job have you done to your doors? midbass wont improve without a good sealed up door.

assuming you haven't deadened them yet id recommend you do so and then decide if you need to replace the mids after.

by the way, i dont know anything about the mids you have now, so i cant comment on whether or not you should expect antiquate midbass or not.

[///M5 2,833]

The Alpha's are indeed midranges. 81Hz may be their spec, but 150-200Hz is more like their reality. As for what to do it depends on what is important to you.

My guess is that you can have your subs play high and get away with just the midrange and the horns. Considering you already have them installed that is what I would recommend first. After you upgrade your tweeters listen to music and some sweeps and then describe what you are lacking and we can propose a solution. Remember their is no best or absolute right, it is your system and should play what you want well not what I like. Get the horns in and see what happens

[jcarter1885 995]

The Alpha's are indeed midranges. 81Hz may be their spec, but 150-200Hz is more like their reality. As for what to do it depends on what is important to you.

My guess is that you can have your subs play high and get away with just the midrange and the horns. Considering you already have them installed that is what I would recommend first. After you upgrade your tweeters listen to music and some sweeps and then describe what you are lacking and we can propose a solution. Remember their is no best or absolute right, it is your system and should play what you want well not what I like. Get the horns in and see what happens

Yeah my next step is to deaden the doors and add deflex pads behind each speaker, then take a step at getting my horns and an amp for them. I do like how they sound when my system is on or off just notice that they are more midrange than mid-bass and Im not complaining (I would only complain if I were without subwoofers), I have my subs crossed @ 80 HZ and they play well so Im satisfied with mids as of now.

Once again thankx a bunch M5 and lithium for your help and very much appreciated info, if I have anymore questions believe me Im asking them.

[porkchop 304]

man Jay-cee, i hope this doesnt seem like a thread jack, but i noticed you mentioning the removal of the rear deck speakers and increase in bass in the cabin.......

i also noticed that you got a couple of the big dogs watching your thread , lol,

so between your experiance thus far or perhaps someone elses experiance that is watching, i was hoping to get some opions on this matter.

we have a 1977 cougar that we are putting a sub box in the trunk of. we went with twoof the IA 187's 12" subs, did a sub up /port back type enclosure, useing 3 4" aero ports, so we have 5.1 cubes and tuned to 33.25hz.

the rear deck is white vinyl and currently has two sets of 6" X 9" s in it.... the option of removing them is really not one we want to chase.

i have thought of two possible solutions , perhaps you could weigh in on.

one is to add a 6" port in the middle to allow bass into the cabin.... cosmetically this would be somewhat appealing to the eye , being centered between the exsistng 6x9's. would it be very effective though.?

the other option is perhaps remove the seat cushion at the top brackets and let it come forward 1" and then add a block like surface to keep it forward in a few spots.... this would not be too noticeable at one inch, the width of the seat, would it do the trick for the bass?

wich would you choose?

thanks chop

sorry for bad spelling

[lithium 358]

man Jay-cee, i hope this doesnt seem like a thread jack, but i noticed you mentioning the removal of the rear deck speakers and increase in bass in the cabin.......

i also noticed that you got a couple of the big dogs watching your thread , lol,

so between your experiance thus far or perhaps someone elses experiance that is watching, i was hoping to get some opions on this matter.

we have a 1977 cougar that we are putting a sub box in the trunk of. we went with twoof the IA 187's 12" subs, did a sub up /port back type enclosure, useing 3 4" aero ports, so we have 5.1 cubes and tuned to 33.25hz.

the rear deck is white vinyl and currently has two sets of 6" X 9" s in it.... the option of removing them is really not one we want to chase.

i have thought of two possible solutions , perhaps you could weigh in on.

one is to add a 6" port in the middle to allow bass into the cabin.... cosmetically this would be somewhat appealing to the eye , being centered between the exsistng 6x9's. would it be very effective though.?

the other option is perhaps remove the seat cushion at the top brackets and let it come forward 1" and then add a block like surface to keep it forward in a few spots.... this would not be too noticeable at one inch, the width of the seat, would it do the trick for the bass?

wich would you choose?

thanks chop

sorry for bad spelling

try removing the rear speakers (temporarily) to see if you gain any output. depending on that, you will know what mods you will want to make to the rear deck.

id recommend you remove the rear fill unless you absolutely need it....

[lithium 358]

Once again thankx a bunch M5 and lithium for your help and very much appreciated info, if I have anymore questions believe me Im asking them.

no problem, glad i could help haha.

sounds like your set for now, let us know your results.

[porkchop 304]

id recommend you remove the rear fill unless you absolutely need it.... "lithium"

i like your thought on the temp removal as a gauge of effectiveness....... the rear deck is white vinyl as is all the interior, highly visible through clear glass, the 6x9 rear fill is almost more cosmetic than anything. trying to create a compromise here and budget is definitly on low side of things.......... i think bear still has his first dollar framed somewhere, lol. oh i guess i should mention the 6x9's are top mount....removal would result in holes.