Building a Subwoofer

[my_first_account 0]

I've never heard the Shiva-X, but the Dayton Titanic is a very capable sub. But I question why you put it in such a huge box? I set up a system for a friend with the 12" version and put it in like a 2.5 cube box tuned to 25 or so, and it was great.

Also, DO NOT take winISDs SPL graphs literally. Those graphs do not predict in-home numbers in the slightest.

Third, the port lengths that winISD gives you is for EACH port. so if it says 21.67 inches, each of your two eight inch ports have to be 21.67 inches.

Yes, I know not to take the winisd graphs literally, it's just a thing to give you a estimate, right?

And, I know the box would be pretty big...13.5 cubes is pretty big, but I modeled that and that made it so it could hit 120db at 20hz. I also modeled 2 Dayton MKIII 15" so it could hit 111db at 10hz in a ported box running at 750w and no HPF! That would be pretty awesome. The 2 Shiva's could hit 107db at 10hz in a ported box, and at 600 watts, but with a HPF set at 9hz.

And, thanks for clearing up the port lengths for me

How should I model the 2 Dayton's MKIII 15" or the 2 Shiva's? What box size, tuning frequency...etc?

Thanks for the help

[KU40 173]

Did you look at the power chart in those boxes? Power handling below 30-35 hz will be drastically reduced in boxes that large, at times to almost only half. So while you may gain 10-20 hz output, you'll lose a bit in everything above there. Which is a tradeoff you have to decide on I guess.

As for modeling, I'd first look at manufacturer's recommendations. Since you want low stuff it's better to go towards the higher end of their box size spectrum. But just remember that while larger boxes are more efficient, they lower the mechanical power handling. So you may have to be careful with the power you have (or going to have).

[my_first_account 0]

True. I didn't even think about that...thanks

Anyways, I have a refined budget .

Nearly doubled...

I can spend around $265 on a driver in 3 weeks. I can spend $380 on a amp and crossover (I was thinking the Behringer EP2500 and the Reckhorn B-1), then, I can spend another $265 on a second driver, if needed...The process of buying a driver, amp, then another driver (if needed) would be around a year or two. But, I could get the driver pretty soon...All in all, I could spend around $910...wow...

I was thinking about getting the Mach 5 IXL 18 for a driver, but I would like something that would give tight bass over a "rumble".

Any suggestion on a different driver, amp or crossover?

Thanks for all of the help

Edited May 19, 2009 by my_first_account

[KU40 173]

I say just stick with the Shiva-x. Then you can spend the extra money on trying out new boxes (sealed, ported low, larger box size, etc.) to find the one you really like. Two 12s and 1000 watts will have plenty of output for a normal-sized living room. In fact I doubt you'll ever even use half of their capability while watching movies and things.

[my_first_account 0]

Ya, I was thinking that also I probably won't use all of the one either, but, why not have the head room?

Thanks

[KU40 173]

oh believe me, two 12s is plenty of headroom in a house. I have two 12s ported to 24 hz I think, off of 500 watts, and it will shake the whole house and knock things over in the bathroom.

[my_first_account 0]

Oh I believe you

My crappy KLH 10" sub is *almost* loud enough. Just not near loud enough on the low frequencies...

That sub has taked quite a beating on Bass I Love You by Bass Tronics and The Bass Will Destroy You by them

It sound pretty good on those, but again, not loud enough.

Which would be a better "musical" sub? The IXL 18 or the Shiva-X?

Thanks for the help

[KU40 173]

Well that's a tough one. I've never heard either driver, so hopefully somebody who has can give their input. However, the Shiva-X uses the XBL^2 motor, which is a very low distortion motor. My Mag v.4 employs it and it sounds very clean. However, the IXL may be able to go lower a little easier. Not sure how much you'd notice though. I think you'll be happy with either.

[my_first_account 0]

OK, thanks.

When I model the Shiva in a 6.35 cu.ft box, it reaches its Xmax limits at 13hz with no HPF running at 150w, which my Yamaha amp is rated at. If I use the IXL 18, it doesn't reach its Xmax limits at all with the Yamaha amp.

Here are the two drivers:

Thanks and I am open to opinions...

[my_first_account 0]

I was thinking a 21 cu.ft box tuned to 18.12hz for two IXL 18's (one 10.5 cu.ft box for each of them so I can adjust where I can place them) with four 4 inch ports 16.82 inches long...how does that look to you guys?

Also, I will be modeling the Shiva-X in different boxes and see what I can do with that

I just can't decide on if I should get the Shiva-X or the IXL 18.2.2...but I think it will be the Shiva just because it's around $60 cheaper.

Thanks, and I am open to box suggestions if you have any

Edited May 21, 2009 by my_first_account

[my_first_account 0]

One more driver question, I hope...sorry

Anyways, would you guys recommend the Tempest-X over the IXL 18.2.2 or the ShivaX? Depending on the price of the Tempest, I think I will just get that, but I will have to model it and see where it reaches its Xmax limits on 150w; that's if it will

Thanks

[my_first_account 0]

Ok, I have pretty much decided on what to get. If the Tempest-X is too much cheaper than the Mach 5 IXL 18.2.2, I will get the Tempest-X. But, I will have to see how the GenII Tempest-X models in WinISD before I make up my mind.

Should I still get the Behringer EP2500 and the Reckhorn B-1?

Thanks for all of the help, and I'm sorry for the constant questions. Thanks for hanging with me on this

[KU40 173]

Sure sounds good.

[dem beats 1,223]

where are you seeing the tempest? I didn't see them on the DIY site. What is the cost?

If it's the 15" 600watt sub I think it's a great choice. It will have a little lower Fs, and maybe, just maybe, more spl.

It's it's really close to the 200 dollar mark, I would go for it. If it's not but you still think the shiva will not quench your bass thirst I would save all your money and go for a maelstrom, or perhaps an IXL. Both great choices. You won't really be thinking about any upgrades for a loooong time then.

I am biased to the maelstrom. The IXL is a great choice too though. It May even have the edge on the Maelstom-x as it's SLIGHTLY more sensitive, but the Maelstrom can handle 50% more power. I went with 2 Maelstroms to help with room response, if I do end up with a problem, and I desire being as flat and load as I can down to the sub 10Hz if I can.

I really encourage you to buy as big and powerfull of a sub as you can fit into the room and that your budget will allow. This will put off the upgrade bug for as long as possible and thus you will ultimately spend less.

[dem beats 1,223]

Ok, I have pretty much decided on what to get. If the Tempest-X is too much cheaper than the Mach 5 IXL 18.2.2, I will get the Tempest-X. But, I will have to see how the GenII Tempest-X models in WinISD before I make up my mind.

Should I still get the Behringer EP2500 and the Reckhorn B-1?

Thanks for all of the help, and I'm sorry for the constant questions. Thanks for hanging with me on this

How much can you get the reckhorn for? I think if I wanted processing I would buy something a little more stout. I would hold off on the processing purchase untill you get the sub in the room and have listened to it quite a bit and placed it where you really like the sound. Maybe geta mic and to some charts/graphs too if you want.

I would really really hate for you to buy it and either not need it, or worse, need much much much more processing.

As a side note, some people really feel that when the process their sub it looses a lot of the visceral grunt it had before they put it on a processor. What your ear hears and body feals is a bit more important for movie watching than just having a flat response line.

[my_first_account 0]

where are you seeing the tempest? I didn't see them on the DIY site. What is the cost?

If it's the 15" 600watt sub I think it's a great choice. It will have a little lower Fs, and maybe, just maybe, more spl.

It's it's really close to the 200 dollar mark, I would go for it. If it's not but you still think the shiva will not quench your bass thirst I would save all your money and go for a maelstrom, or perhaps an IXL. Both great choices. You won't really be thinking about any upgrades for a loooong time then.

I am biased to the maelstrom. The IXL is a great choice too though. It May even have the edge on the Maelstom-x as it's SLIGHTLY more sensitive, but the Maelstrom can handle 50% more power. I went with 2 Maelstroms to help with room response, if I do end up with a problem, and I desire being as flat and load as I can down to the sub 10Hz if I can.

I really encourage you to buy as big and powerfull of a sub as you can fit into the room and that your budget will allow. This will put off the upgrade bug for as long as possible and thus you will ultimately spend less.

Yes, the Tempest-X Gen II is coming out sometime within the next few months. It is the 15", but I haven't seen the Pe of it, so I can't tell you if it is the 600w one you are thinking of.

Ok, I have pretty much decided on what to get. If the Tempest-X is too much cheaper than the Mach 5 IXL 18.2.2, I will get the Tempest-X. But, I will have to see how the GenII Tempest-X models in WinISD before I make up my mind.

Should I still get the Behringer EP2500 and the Reckhorn B-1?

Thanks for all of the help, and I'm sorry for the constant questions. Thanks for hanging with me on this

How much can you get the reckhorn for? I think if I wanted processing I would buy something a little more stout. I would hold off on the processing purchase untill you get the sub in the room and have listened to it quite a bit and placed it where you really like the sound. Maybe geta mic and to some charts/graphs too if you want.

I would really really hate for you to buy it and either not need it, or worse, need much much much more processing.

As a side note, some people really feel that when the process their sub it looses a lot of the visceral grunt it had before they put it on a processor. What your ear hears and body feals is a bit more important for movie watching than just having a flat response line.

I found the Reckhorn for $95 on one website, which was the cheapest I could find it for. And, I wouldn't get the EP2500 until sometime around Christmas. What processor do you think I can get that is better? I would like to keep the price of it below $150, if possible.

Thanks for the help

[dem beats 1,223]

I would definately not get the reckhorn then untill you have built your sub and have it in the room. It may not be needed. It it was 30 bucks, sure, nice to have on hand. In fact I wouldn't spend a half a cent on processing untill you have done some more in room research. Not that I'm a pro or know everything, but I haven't spent anything on processing yet. Just my receiver. Proper box building, and orientation in the room will matter 1000000% more than any processing. Install is 80% of the output. Remember that. There is no way to know what you need. The money could be spent for better driver or amp and you would get better results IMHO. Use it for extra wood so you can make several boxes and see what you like better. You could also use it to buy measuring equipment. That would get you miles farther than the processor.

If the tempest isn't even out yet why would you even be interest if I may ask? New products will continue to come out.

A bit or perspective, I would rather have 2 12" woofers of the Shiva motors, than 1 15" of that same motor. So unless the 15" was only a few dollars more than the shiva, I wouldn't pick it up. If it's a completely different driver with about ~1000watt rms and an Fs of 18 or so, and less than 250 bucks I would maybe think about it. But then you're talking IXL 18" money.

[dem beats 1,223]

I hope you don't take my questions as rude. I just want to make sure I'm answering the right questions.

[my_first_account 0]

I would definately not get the reckhorn then untill you have built your sub and have it in the room. It may not be needed. It it was 30 bucks, sure, nice to have on hand. In fact I wouldn't spend a half a cent on processing untill you have done some more in room research. Not that I'm a pro or know everything, but I haven't spent anything on processing yet. Just my receiver. Proper box building, and orientation in the room will matter 1000000% more than any processing. Install is 80% of the output. Remember that. There is no way to know what you need. The money could be spent for better driver or amp and you would get better results IMHO. Use it for extra wood so you can make several boxes and see what you like better. You could also use it to buy measuring equipment. That would get you miles farther than the processor.

If the tempest isn't even out yet why would you even be interest if I may ask? New products will continue to come out.

A bit or perspective, I would rather have 2 12" woofers of the Shiva motors, than 1 15" of that same motor. So unless the 15" was only a few dollars more than the shiva, I wouldn't pick it up. If it's a completely different driver with about ~1000watt rms and an Fs of 18 or so, and less than 250 bucks I would maybe think about it. But then you're talking IXL 18" money.

No, I don't take your answers as rude one bit. It is very informative.

The only reason I was looking at the Reckhorn is to use it as a HPF so the IXL wouldn't go over its Xmax limits with running 650w from one channel of the EP2500. Were you thinking of using it some other way?

The Shiva-X has a Gen II coming out soon. Even with the old Shiva-X, with shipping, it will be $205. The IXL 18.2.2 will only be $260 with shipping. And, the Tempest-X is as good as the IXL in WinISD, so I just thought I would bring it up. It will be even better (I'm thinking) when the Gen II version comes out.

Also, the price will be going up on the Gen II Shiva-X's, so I'll have to see how much more the IXL will be. If the IXL is like only $30 more, would you go for the IXL still?

I will post my box plans for the IXL (not saying that I am getting it yet...) to see what you think or what could be improved.

Thanks

Edited May 26, 2009 by my_first_account

[my_first_account 0]

Would you guys rather just have me post the link to the box I was thinking of (it's at Home Theater Shack), or just post it here?

[dem beats 1,223]

myfirst,

I would really save your pennies and get an IXL or the maelstrom-x. The IXL will be more effecient to drive.

As for taking it to it's limits, if you really are trying to push it hard, or throwing it some insanely low tones and have it cranked you might be able to. It could happen with 650 but not easy and you would most likely notice something wrong long before mechanical failure.

[dem beats 1,223]

it's tough to make a commitment to a subwoofer, when your looking at the decision making process, but I would really say buy the biggest bestest that you can, and then cater the other equipment around that.

[my_first_account 0]

Alright, IXL or Mal-X it is. I doubt my parents will let me spend over $400 on a sub, but who knows, maybe they will.

Just out or curiosity, how would the Kicker Solo-X 18 sound in HT?

Thanks, and you don't HAVE to answer that question, but I was just curious...like always.

[dem beats 1,223]

Solo is not for HT.

In general for HT you want large drivers, LOW Fs, a good clean sound with somewhat decent power handeling.

The Solo only meats the large driver and power needs. It's an SPL sub IMHO.

[my_first_account 0]

OK, that's what I was thinking.

Here is the box spec I was thinking of for the IXL 18.2.2:

I am probably going to get the IXL 18.2.2 when they are back in stock...

But until then, I wanted to see what you guys thought about my planned box dimmensions.

It will be 7 cu.ft tuned to 17.99hz so the port lengths can be a quarter multilple like .75 or .25.

The box needs to be the same depth and width to fit in the corner of my room to clear the furniture.

Just to make sure, the 19 inch depth and width are external dimmensions and not internal, correct?

Here is the port lengths and volume:

You need to multiply the port volume 524.6459731494955 (yes, that is the actual number it has) by three due to the three 4 inch ports at 41.75 inches long to keep the tune the same.

And, here is the bracing:

You will need to multiply 169.5 by 2 due to the two braces. Two cutouts so I can drill holes for the three 4 inch ports. Both of the braces will have the 2 cutouts, and the three holes drilled in them for the 4" ports.

Would you guys recommend anything else for me to change? I am not sure how much bracing I would need for this box, so I am hoping someone could help me out there.

The box will have 1 inch square legs or something that will fit with a 3/4" thick baseplate screwed into the legs.

I am open to any suggestions you guys have.

Thank you