Welcome to the IHoP

[dem beats 1,223]

90 min meeting in a room so dry and dusty I could hear my eyelids scraping over my eyes.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

The Neighbors BM'er is a 328i, I looked some up this morning, One like this is only 25-30k. BUT they are rear wheel drive witch is a NO-GO for me.

Huh? That is an E46, if you look hard you can find one for $10k. $15k would buy you a very nice one.

Amusing, FWD is a No-Go for me or my wife. No way, no how. I don't need understeer in the snow. I'll take a well balanced RWD ANY day of the week in inclement weather.

Guess I need to look at the badge better.

I will take the getting pulled felling anyday over the getting pushed. I own 3 4wd's and still drive my Honda all winter except for the very worst days. I like how I can over/understeer with the throttle and really turn with the e-brake.

Huh? Why would you EVER want to understeer.

The e-brake will work in any drive format. In a RWD you can turn with the throttle, with front you CANNOT.

I will take the weight over the drive tires anyday.

A fwd turns harder when the steering tires are also pulling, NOT just getting pushed where the weight of the vehicle is getting pushed.

I have never been to MN but I can only imagine it must be pretty flat, because You won't get very far with RWD only here.(the ditch)

Hmm, you really need to open your mind. By FAR the best winter car I have ever driven (outside of snow clearance) was a naturally aspirated Porsche 944. Perfect 25% weight in each corner with a nominal driver. That is ALWAYS the best way to have traction.

Putting the weight over the fronts does not help you turn, nor does it help you stop, it also makes it easier to spin. The ONLY advantage of FWD is the same advantage that 4WD has that puts everyone in the ditch. From a dead stop perhaps you can accelerate faster. To me turning and stopping are MUCH more important in inclement weather.

MN is flat, but not all of MN and RWD doesn't get you in the ditch not knowing how to drive does. Going off the road accelerating is pure operator error, going off because you can't stop or turn isn't. There is no way you can argue that FWD is better for either of those.

Little history piece for you as well. FWD exists as it is cheaper to manufacture and for an average person they don't notice the difference. So some manufacturers choose to save money and compromise on all areas of performance. Others choose to do the opposite and refuse to cut that big ass corner.

You probably drive all automatics too, but that doesn't make them better. I use the gears to slow down on ice and snow, NOT the brake's. A RWD car's ass will slide side ways a soon as the you start up a hill, a FWD will go where the tire's are pulling it. As an example Sean, When I am stuck on a snowmoble, I can have a single person pull a front ski to get me moving and or it would take several people pushing from behind. Simple Physics is the reason for FWD not cost. A FWD or AWD car will handle and corner better than a RWD anyday.

Believe me brother I am the FARTHEST from close minded person you will ever meet, But I do like a good debate.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I hate trying to find a place to live.

I looked at over 300 houses before buying mine. Took a few years...

I thought we were bad looking in the +50 range.

=)

Part of it was me interviewing realtors. Open house Sundays was a scheduled event for nearly 3 years.

I learn ALOT at open houses, Realtors are WAY friendlier than mortgage brokers.

Edited March 15, 2010 by j-roadtatts

[topgun 262]

Oh, and my driveway is far from flat.

You have a hell of a driveway. I would hate that thing in winter.

[topgun 262]

The Neighbors BM'er is a 328i, I looked some up this morning, One like this is only 25-30k. BUT they are rear wheel drive witch is a NO-GO for me.

Huh? That is an E46, if you look hard you can find one for $10k. $15k would buy you a very nice one.

Amusing, FWD is a No-Go for me or my wife. No way, no how. I don't need understeer in the snow. I'll take a well balanced RWD ANY day of the week in inclement weather.

Guess I need to look at the badge better.

I will take the getting pulled felling anyday over the getting pushed. I own 3 4wd's and still drive my Honda all winter except for the very worst days. I like how I can over/understeer with the throttle and really turn with the e-brake.

Huh? Why would you EVER want to understeer.

The e-brake will work in any drive format. In a RWD you can turn with the throttle, with front you CANNOT.

I will take the weight over the drive tires anyday.

A fwd turns harder when the steering tires are also pulling, NOT just getting pushed where the weight of the vehicle is getting pushed.

I have never been to MN but I can only imagine it must be pretty flat, because You won't get very far with RWD only here.(the ditch)

Hmm, you really need to open your mind. By FAR the best winter car I have ever driven (outside of snow clearance) was a naturally aspirated Porsche 944. Perfect 25% weight in each corner with a nominal driver. That is ALWAYS the best way to have traction.

Putting the weight over the fronts does not help you turn, nor does it help you stop, it also makes it easier to spin. The ONLY advantage of FWD is the same advantage that 4WD has that puts everyone in the ditch. From a dead stop perhaps you can accelerate faster. To me turning and stopping are MUCH more important in inclement weather.

MN is flat, but not all of MN and RWD doesn't get you in the ditch not knowing how to drive does. Going off the road accelerating is pure operator error, going off because you can't stop or turn isn't. There is no way you can argue that FWD is better for either of those.

Little history piece for you as well. FWD exists as it is cheaper to manufacture and for an average person they don't notice the difference. So some manufacturers choose to save money and compromise on all areas of performance. Others choose to do the opposite and refuse to cut that big ass corner.

You probably drive all automatics too, but that doesn't make them better. I use the gears to slow down on ice and snow, NOT the brake's. A RWD car's ass will slide side ways a soon as the you start up a hill, a FWD will go where the tire's are pulling it. As an example Sean, When I am stuck on a snowmoble, I can have a single person pull a front ski to get me moving and or it would take several people pushing from behind. Simple Physics is the reason for FWD not cost. A FWD or AWD car will handle and corner better than a RWD anyday.

Believe me brother I am the FARTHEST from close minded person you will ever meet, But I do like a good debate.

A FWD corners better? I'm not believing this...

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

The Neighbors BM'er is a 328i, I looked some up this morning, One like this is only 25-30k. BUT they are rear wheel drive witch is a NO-GO for me.

Huh? That is an E46, if you look hard you can find one for $10k. $15k would buy you a very nice one.

Amusing, FWD is a No-Go for me or my wife. No way, no how. I don't need understeer in the snow. I'll take a well balanced RWD ANY day of the week in inclement weather.

Guess I need to look at the badge better.

I will take the getting pulled felling anyday over the getting pushed. I own 3 4wd's and still drive my Honda all winter except for the very worst days. I like how I can over/understeer with the throttle and really turn with the e-brake.

Huh? Why would you EVER want to understeer.

The e-brake will work in any drive format. In a RWD you can turn with the throttle, with front you CANNOT.

I will take the weight over the drive tires anyday.

A fwd turns harder when the steering tires are also pulling, NOT just getting pushed where the weight of the vehicle is getting pushed.

I have never been to MN but I can only imagine it must be pretty flat, because You won't get very far with RWD only here.(the ditch)

Hmm, you really need to open your mind. By FAR the best winter car I have ever driven (outside of snow clearance) was a naturally aspirated Porsche 944. Perfect 25% weight in each corner with a nominal driver. That is ALWAYS the best way to have traction.

Putting the weight over the fronts does not help you turn, nor does it help you stop, it also makes it easier to spin. The ONLY advantage of FWD is the same advantage that 4WD has that puts everyone in the ditch. From a dead stop perhaps you can accelerate faster. To me turning and stopping are MUCH more important in inclement weather.

MN is flat, but not all of MN and RWD doesn't get you in the ditch not knowing how to drive does. Going off the road accelerating is pure operator error, going off because you can't stop or turn isn't. There is no way you can argue that FWD is better for either of those.

Little history piece for you as well. FWD exists as it is cheaper to manufacture and for an average person they don't notice the difference. So some manufacturers choose to save money and compromise on all areas of performance. Others choose to do the opposite and refuse to cut that big ass corner.

You probably drive all automatics too, but that doesn't make them better. I use the gears to slow down on ice and snow, NOT the brake's. A RWD car's ass will slide side ways a soon as the you start up a hill, a FWD will go where the tire's are pulling it. As an example Sean, When I am stuck on a snowmoble, I can have a single person pull a front ski to get me moving and or it would take several people pushing from behind. Simple Physics is the reason for FWD not cost. A FWD or AWD car will handle and corner better than a RWD anyday.

Believe me brother I am the FARTHEST from close minded person you will ever meet, But I do like a good debate.

A FWD corners better? I'm not believing this...

Yeah and you probably think your Caddy is RWD too.LOL

[///M5 2,833]

The Neighbors BM'er is a 328i, I looked some up this morning, One like this is only 25-30k. BUT they are rear wheel drive witch is a NO-GO for me.

Huh? That is an E46, if you look hard you can find one for $10k. $15k would buy you a very nice one.

Amusing, FWD is a No-Go for me or my wife. No way, no how. I don't need understeer in the snow. I'll take a well balanced RWD ANY day of the week in inclement weather.

Guess I need to look at the badge better.

I will take the getting pulled felling anyday over the getting pushed. I own 3 4wd's and still drive my Honda all winter except for the very worst days. I like how I can over/understeer with the throttle and really turn with the e-brake.

Huh? Why would you EVER want to understeer.

The e-brake will work in any drive format. In a RWD you can turn with the throttle, with front you CANNOT.

I will take the weight over the drive tires anyday.

A fwd turns harder when the steering tires are also pulling, NOT just getting pushed where the weight of the vehicle is getting pushed.

I have never been to MN but I can only imagine it must be pretty flat, because You won't get very far with RWD only here.(the ditch)

Hmm, you really need to open your mind. By FAR the best winter car I have ever driven (outside of snow clearance) was a naturally aspirated Porsche 944. Perfect 25% weight in each corner with a nominal driver. That is ALWAYS the best way to have traction.

Putting the weight over the fronts does not help you turn, nor does it help you stop, it also makes it easier to spin. The ONLY advantage of FWD is the same advantage that 4WD has that puts everyone in the ditch. From a dead stop perhaps you can accelerate faster. To me turning and stopping are MUCH more important in inclement weather.

MN is flat, but not all of MN and RWD doesn't get you in the ditch not knowing how to drive does. Going off the road accelerating is pure operator error, going off because you can't stop or turn isn't. There is no way you can argue that FWD is better for either of those.

Little history piece for you as well. FWD exists as it is cheaper to manufacture and for an average person they don't notice the difference. So some manufacturers choose to save money and compromise on all areas of performance. Others choose to do the opposite and refuse to cut that big ass corner.

You probably drive all automatics too, but that doesn't make them better. I use the gears to slow down on ice and snow, NOT the brake's. A RWD car's ass will slide side ways a soon as the you start up a hill, a FWD will go where the tire's are pulling it. As an example Sean, When I am stuck on a snowmoble, I can have a single person pull a front ski to get me moving and or it would take several people pushing from behind. Simple Physics is the reason for FWD not cost. A FWD or AWD car will handle and corner better than a RWD anyday.

Believe me brother I am the FARTHEST from close minded person you will ever meet, But I do like a good debate.

Bad analogy, or at least from a Physics perspective. The reason pulling on the skis help is that you lift them and you use different muscles. It takes the same force to move the same mass from either push or pulling direction. Think of the force vector, they are identical if the same force is used.

Actually it is 100% cost. Cars didn't require a frame that went FWD. FWD will NEVER corner as well as an RWD. Perhaps you know of some front drive race cars?

As for the ass sliding sideways this is unrelated to which wheels are driving, but the fact that you are out of traction. If you have cars that are equally balanced (ie 25% at all corners) and you are trying to drive straight up a hill the RWD will just spin and the FWD car will torque steer causing you to go off the road.

If you have an unevenly balanced car, well then it is going to handle like shit no matter what you do as that is always a bad idea.

[///M5 2,833]

Oh, and my driveway is far from flat.

You have a hell of a driveway. I would hate that thing in winter.

Amusingly about 5x a year I have to get my friends (usually their girl friends) unstuck in their FWD cars. So far no RWD has ever slid off the driveway and needed to be dug out. Torque steers a bitch. And they even have crappy cars with shitty balance putting a ton of weight on the front.

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

before:

after:

:lol2:

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

Best Barn Find Ever: Two Brand-New BMW E30 M3s And A Fast Ford - barn finds - Jalopnik

oh. my. GAWD!!

[dem beats 1,223]

When I am stuck on a snowmoble, I can have a single person pull a front ski to get me moving and or it would take several people pushing from behind. Simple Physics is the reason for FWD not cost. A FWD or AWD car will handle and corner better than a RWD anyday.

Believe me brother I am the FARTHEST from close minded person you will ever meet, But I do like a good debate.

I'm confounded by that logic.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

When I am stuck on a snowmoble, I can have a single person pull a front ski to get me moving and or it would take several people pushing from behind. Simple Physics is the reason for FWD not cost. A FWD or AWD car will handle and corner better than a RWD anyday.

Believe me brother I am the FARTHEST from close minded person you will ever meet, But I do like a good debate.

I'm confounded by that logic.

Lets make a different example (same physics). Go outside and fill a sled with wood and try to push the sled, what happen's? Now pull on the same sled, what happens?

I think it has NOTHING to do with different muscles, Just the fact that the force is being applied in the most effective place.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Oh, and my driveway is far from flat.

You have a hell of a driveway. I would hate that thing in winter.

Amusingly about 5x a year I have to get my friends (usually their girl friends) unstuck in their FWD cars. So far no RWD has ever slid off the driveway and needed to be dug out. Torque steers a bitch. And they even have crappy cars with shitty balance putting a ton of weight on the front.

Bad comparison, Operator error. How Do I know that out of all the people that drive up your driveway other than you, Even drove RWD. Concidering more cars are FWD nowadays the odds could be stacked on that one.

An unloaded truck has worse weight dispersion than a FWD car.

[Duran 387]

When I am stuck on a snowmoble, I can have a single person pull a front ski to get me moving and or it would take several people pushing from behind. Simple Physics is the reason for FWD not cost. A FWD or AWD car will handle and corner better than a RWD anyday.

Believe me brother I am the FARTHEST from close minded person you will ever meet, But I do like a good debate.

I'm confounded by that logic.

Lets make a different example (same physics). Go outside and fill a sled with wood and try to push the sled, what happen's? Now pull on the same sled, what happens?

I think it has NOTHING to do with different muscles, Just the fact that the force is being applied in the most effective place.

That depends on where your pushing it form as well. Did you push from the top of the wood pile? From the base of the sled? Oh when you pulled it did you use a rope and lift up on the front? Or did you keep it level with ther ground? What id your 750 lb. grandma is in the sled too??

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Actually it is 100% cost. Cars didn't require a frame that went FWD. FWD will NEVER corner as well as an RWD. Perhaps you know of some front drive race cars?

As for the ass sliding sideways this is unrelated to which wheels are driving, but the fact that you are out of traction. If you have cars that are equally balanced (ie 25% at all corners) and you are trying to drive straight up a hill the RWD will just spin and the FWD car will torque steer causing you to go off the road.

If you have an unevenly balanced car, well then it is going to handle like shit no matter what you do as that is always a bad idea.

A history lesson for you, People learned about weight to power ratio is the reason cars are built without a frame. There are AWD and RWD cars that DON"T have a FRAME. Do I need to name a few?

there are a ton of different racing classes, ALOT of race cars have the engine in the back over the drive tires, Others use a spoiler for down force. They also design the front of race cars to have ALOT of down force.

I agree that an AWD car will handle best.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

When I am stuck on a snowmoble, I can have a single person pull a front ski to get me moving and or it would take several people pushing from behind. Simple Physics is the reason for FWD not cost. A FWD or AWD car will handle and corner better than a RWD anyday.

Believe me brother I am the FARTHEST from close minded person you will ever meet, But I do like a good debate.

I'm confounded by that logic.

Lets make a different example (same physics). Go outside and fill a sled with wood and try to push the sled, what happen's? Now pull on the same sled, what happens?

I think it has NOTHING to do with different muscles, Just the fact that the force is being applied in the most effective place.

That depends on where your pushing it form as well. Did you push from the top of the wood pile? From the base of the sled? Oh when you pulled it did you use a rope and lift up on the front? Or did you keep it level with ther ground? What id your 750 lb. grandma is in the sled too??

HA HA +1 for you, I always hit the wrong button.

This would be the same physics as towing a trailer. Not pushing it.

We can start the sled where ever you want as long as I get to ride along. I don't know if Gma will help on this one though.

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

Actually it is 100% cost. Cars didn't require a frame that went FWD. FWD will NEVER corner as well as an RWD. Perhaps you know of some front drive race cars?

As for the ass sliding sideways this is unrelated to which wheels are driving, but the fact that you are out of traction. If you have cars that are equally balanced (ie 25% at all corners) and you are trying to drive straight up a hill the RWD will just spin and the FWD car will torque steer causing you to go off the road.

If you have an unevenly balanced car, well then it is going to handle like shit no matter what you do as that is always a bad idea.

A history lesson for you, People learned about weight to power ratio is the reason cars are built without a frame. There are AWD and RWD cars that DON"T have a FRAME. Do I need to name a few?

there are a ton of different racing classes, ALOT of race cars have the engine in the back over the drive tires, Others use a spoiler for down force. They also design the front of race cars to have ALOT of down force.

I agree that an AWD car will handle best.

most of those cars actually have the engine midmounted, in front of the axle and behind the driver

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Actually it is 100% cost. Cars didn't require a frame that went FWD. FWD will NEVER corner as well as an RWD. Perhaps you know of some front drive race cars?

As for the ass sliding sideways this is unrelated to which wheels are driving, but the fact that you are out of traction. If you have cars that are equally balanced (ie 25% at all corners) and you are trying to drive straight up a hill the RWD will just spin and the FWD car will torque steer causing you to go off the road.

If you have an unevenly balanced car, well then it is going to handle like shit no matter what you do as that is always a bad idea.

A history lesson for you, People learned about weight to power ratio is the reason cars are built without a frame. There are AWD and RWD cars that DON"T have a FRAME. Do I need to name a few?

there are a ton of different racing classes, ALOT of race cars have the engine in the back over the drive tires, Others use a spoiler for down force. They also design the front of race cars to have ALOT of down force.

I agree that an AWD car will handle best.

most of those cars actually have the engine midmounted, in front of the axle and behind the driver

ANY car would handle best with the engine mounted in the center. As long as I still have room 4 the stereo I am game.lol.

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

I was talking about the race cars; the engine is not on top of the drive tires, it is in front of the drive tires

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Yummy!!!!! Kung Pao Shrimp for lunch!!!

[dem beats 1,223]

When I am stuck on a snowmoble, I can have a single person pull a front ski to get me moving and or it would take several people pushing from behind. Simple Physics is the reason for FWD not cost. A FWD or AWD car will handle and corner better than a RWD anyday.

Believe me brother I am the FARTHEST from close minded person you will ever meet, But I do like a good debate.

I'm confounded by that logic.

Lets make a different example (same physics). Go outside and fill a sled with wood and try to push the sled, what happen's? Now pull on the same sled, what happens?

I think it has NOTHING to do with different muscles, Just the fact that the force is being applied in the most effective place.

everything else aside the problem of torque in FWD drivetrains is enough to be problematic enough to be less reliable at high speed/heavy acceleration. It also affects acceleration greatly, when a car moved forward by nature it forces more stability to the rear of the vehicle. Suspension assists in this naturally.

In drag racing, almost every sports car, and all work trucks have RWD.

Perhaps this would explain things, have you ever driven a high HP/TQ FWD car? It's unpredictable. FWD gets used mostly in light(er) weight lower HP vehicles, which can make FWD feal nimble, but the same vehicle in RWD would most likely outhandle it in every way.

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

When I am stuck on a snowmoble, I can have a single person pull a front ski to get me moving and or it would take several people pushing from behind. Simple Physics is the reason for FWD not cost. A FWD or AWD car will handle and corner better than a RWD anyday.

Believe me brother I am the FARTHEST from close minded person you will ever meet, But I do like a good debate.

I'm confounded by that logic.

Lets make a different example (same physics). Go outside and fill a sled with wood and try to push the sled, what happen's? Now pull on the same sled, what happens?

I think it has NOTHING to do with different muscles, Just the fact that the force is being applied in the most effective place.

everything else aside the problem of torque in FWD drivetrains is enough to be problematic enough to be less reliable at high speed/heavy acceleration. It also affects acceleration greatly, when a car moved forward by nature it forces more stability to the rear of the vehicle. Suspension assists in this naturally.

not to mention performance driving is a real bitch in a FWD car.

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

In conclusion: RWD, AWD, or GTFO

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

Perhaps you know of some front drive race cars?

:ehh:

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

FWD was not developed for performance, They where intended for better gas mileage, and better traction (in snow) .