Welcome to the IHoP

[///M5 2,833]

Just a clarification on my personal story as well. I didn't come from a terribly nice neighborhood either. I paid for my cars, my insurance, my clothes, my entertainment, and my college. I had encouragement, but not funding.

[///M5 2,833]

Refer to Table 1 on this page:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

that being said, the Republicans whining and bitching and moaning about how they would block any and all legislation unless they got their 3% tax cut was a douche move

There is no reason I should be a target for a more than 10% increase in taxes. I am not in a bracket that can accept that sort of hit.

[lithium 358]

good info guys, i like to hear real shit from time to time if you know what i mean. ill see if i can add anything to the conversation in few minutes... for some fucked up reason i thought i should do an independent study in Quantum mechanics this semester..

[///M5 2,833]

Quantum, ha? That'll kick your ass.

[///M5 2,833]

Had a productive after dinner jaunt in the garage

GPS Install

SAE underhood connector soldered and shrink tubed to a cigarette lighter

Cigarette lighter adapter electrical taped into socket

Wires wrapped in loom and placed back in under hood foam

Dash mounting holes for RAM mount and board for support behind

Droid installed in bracket and plugged in on dash (okay plug not in but you can see it)

Ice Scratchers

RSI Goodies including idler wheel attachments

Scratchers up on rail

Scratchers in operation position

[lithium 358]

I realize that was about Unions which I hardly addressed.

How about this: an uneducated lifer at the UAW can easily make $100k/yr. He's never been motivated to even show up on time, nor try to better himself yet he gets paid more than many of your parents. That is absurd.

On top of that, I have two lovely personal stories to share about Unions and Socialist like governments.

I was doing some work for Ford at the Windsor engine plant. They contracted my company to be onsite for 2 days. They knew we needed power ahead of time, nothing special just 110v/20a. Needless to say I arrived and there was no extension cord. I could see the plug it went into (about 20' away). I had an extension cord with me, I asked my contact to plug it in. He said he couldn't without a Union Engineer. We waited all day and no Union Engineer came. The next day at 2pm he finally came and gave us power. Ford paid us for 2 days worth of work and then had to pay for 2 more at double time since their Union just didn't want to show up.

In 1991 I lived in Moscow for half a year. It started with a May seminar with a local college. When I first arrived I lived on campus at the University in town. Outside my window everyday I could watch the landscaping team plant trees. There were three guys. One dug a hole, one put a tree in it, and the last filled the hole. Part way through my stay I noticed that they had stopped planting trees, but that there were still holes being dug and filled. I didn't understand and thought maybe they were planting flowers. My professor came up to us later on laughing and said she had found out what had happened. The guy who puts the tree in the hole was sick but the other two had to continue working so they did their job.

Both show/highlight Union mentality and socialist agenda's. Make everything equal so no one cares. I am diabolically opposed to that as a method of furthering our society. Everyone should have a carrot that if they want to chase they can go grab. The ones motivated even more should be able to chase a bigger carrot. Taking that away will devastate what made our country great.

i enjoy your stories, you've had a very interesting life, so far haha. you make a good point. i wonder if the "carrot" has to be or ought to be money by itself? i dont find myself very motivated to chase after money. should we consider creating other "carrots" to motivate people? im not too sure what they would be...

[///M5 2,833]

I realize that was about Unions which I hardly addressed.

How about this: an uneducated lifer at the UAW can easily make $100k/yr. He's never been motivated to even show up on time, nor try to better himself yet he gets paid more than many of your parents. That is absurd.

On top of that, I have two lovely personal stories to share about Unions and Socialist like governments.

I was doing some work for Ford at the Windsor engine plant. They contracted my company to be onsite for 2 days. They knew we needed power ahead of time, nothing special just 110v/20a. Needless to say I arrived and there was no extension cord. I could see the plug it went into (about 20' away). I had an extension cord with me, I asked my contact to plug it in. He said he couldn't without a Union Engineer. We waited all day and no Union Engineer came. The next day at 2pm he finally came and gave us power. Ford paid us for 2 days worth of work and then had to pay for 2 more at double time since their Union just didn't want to show up.

In 1991 I lived in Moscow for half a year. It started with a May seminar with a local college. When I first arrived I lived on campus at the University in town. Outside my window everyday I could watch the landscaping team plant trees. There were three guys. One dug a hole, one put a tree in it, and the last filled the hole. Part way through my stay I noticed that they had stopped planting trees, but that there were still holes being dug and filled. I didn't understand and thought maybe they were planting flowers. My professor came up to us later on laughing and said she had found out what had happened. The guy who puts the tree in the hole was sick but the other two had to continue working so they did their job.

Both show/highlight Union mentality and socialist agenda's. Make everything equal so no one cares. I am diabolically opposed to that as a method of furthering our society. Everyone should have a carrot that if they want to chase they can go grab. The ones motivated even more should be able to chase a bigger carrot. Taking that away will devastate what made our country great.

i enjoy your stories, you've had a very interesting life, so far haha. you make a good point. i wonder if the "carrot" has to be or ought to be money by itself? i dont find myself very motivated to chase after money. should we consider creating other "carrots" to motivate people? im not too sure what they would be...

I used carrot and not money as an example. Even in my case it isn't really just money, in fact, that is just a subset.

[lithium 358]

Lithium, I know you're a MUCH smarter than average guy. I probably could have been more gentle in the way you asked your questions but I was making a point. I have a TON of personal history on both sides of the union line. Not once yet have I seen the union help the people who actually do the work. Even when they "help" the employee, 90% of the time it's actually a new way of controlling them, and taking the focus off of the fact that unions are now for political issues and making crap loads of money for people who want to appear giving, and righteous.

my only experience with unions has been what i've heard from my dad. he's kind of an interesting guy in terms of politics, he would probably agree with alot of the opinions made by M5 (socially liberal,fiscal conservative) but less educated haha... besides being an active union member. i cant put a number on it but i would have to say his experience with the union has been a bit more positive then yours. i wont go into details and shit but it seems personal opinions/observations are sometime a bit more subjective.

[lithium 358]

Quantum, ha? That'll kick your ass.

after having it last semester i still cant decide if i find it interesting or not. usually, as long as i think its useful or interesting, i dont mind how hard it is.

[lithium 358]

I realize that was about Unions which I hardly addressed.

How about this: an uneducated lifer at the UAW can easily make $100k/yr. He's never been motivated to even show up on time, nor try to better himself yet he gets paid more than many of your parents. That is absurd.

On top of that, I have two lovely personal stories to share about Unions and Socialist like governments.

I was doing some work for Ford at the Windsor engine plant. They contracted my company to be onsite for 2 days. They knew we needed power ahead of time, nothing special just 110v/20a. Needless to say I arrived and there was no extension cord. I could see the plug it went into (about 20' away). I had an extension cord with me, I asked my contact to plug it in. He said he couldn't without a Union Engineer. We waited all day and no Union Engineer came. The next day at 2pm he finally came and gave us power. Ford paid us for 2 days worth of work and then had to pay for 2 more at double time since their Union just didn't want to show up.

In 1991 I lived in Moscow for half a year. It started with a May seminar with a local college. When I first arrived I lived on campus at the University in town. Outside my window everyday I could watch the landscaping team plant trees. There were three guys. One dug a hole, one put a tree in it, and the last filled the hole. Part way through my stay I noticed that they had stopped planting trees, but that there were still holes being dug and filled. I didn't understand and thought maybe they were planting flowers. My professor came up to us later on laughing and said she had found out what had happened. The guy who puts the tree in the hole was sick but the other two had to continue working so they did their job.

Both show/highlight Union mentality and socialist agenda's. Make everything equal so no one cares. I am diabolically opposed to that as a method of furthering our society. Everyone should have a carrot that if they want to chase they can go grab. The ones motivated even more should be able to chase a bigger carrot. Taking that away will devastate what made our country great.

i enjoy your stories, you've had a very interesting life, so far haha. you make a good point. i wonder if the "carrot" has to be or ought to be money by itself? i dont find myself very motivated to chase after money. should we consider creating other "carrots" to motivate people? im not too sure what they would be...

I used carrot and not money as an example. Even in my case it isn't really just money, in fact, that is just a subset.

gotcha

[///M5 2,833]

Lithium, I know you're a MUCH smarter than average guy. I probably could have been more gentle in the way you asked your questions but I was making a point. I have a TON of personal history on both sides of the union line. Not once yet have I seen the union help the people who actually do the work. Even when they "help" the employee, 90% of the time it's actually a new way of controlling them, and taking the focus off of the fact that unions are now for political issues and making crap loads of money for people who want to appear giving, and righteous.

my only experience with unions has been what i've heard from my dad. he's kind of an interesting guy in terms of politics, he would probably agree with alot of the opinions made by M5 (socially liberal,fiscal conservative) but less educated haha... besides being an active union member. i cant put a number on it but i would have to say his experience with the union has been a bit more positive then yours. i wont go into details and shit but it seems personal opinions/observations are sometime a bit more subjective.

The liberal media has a way of helping young undecideds lean the wrong way.

[lithium 358]

Lithium, I know you're a MUCH smarter than average guy. I probably could have been more gentle in the way you asked your questions but I was making a point. I have a TON of personal history on both sides of the union line. Not once yet have I seen the union help the people who actually do the work. Even when they "help" the employee, 90% of the time it's actually a new way of controlling them, and taking the focus off of the fact that unions are now for political issues and making crap loads of money for people who want to appear giving, and righteous.

my only experience with unions has been what i've heard from my dad. he's kind of an interesting guy in terms of politics, he would probably agree with alot of the opinions made by M5 (socially liberal,fiscal conservative) but less educated haha... besides being an active union member. i cant put a number on it but i would have to say his experience with the union has been a bit more positive then yours. i wont go into details and shit but it seems personal opinions/observations are sometime a bit more subjective.

The liberal media has a way of helping young undecideds lean the wrong way.

i think the problem is that the media is complete shit and most young people dont educate themselves.

but like i said my view of unions has mostly been in favor of them due to my dad's relatively positive experience.

i think alot of support is based on the past success of unions. they now tend to assume that they need to exist in order keep a balance. so i guess the debate is whether or not cooperations would/do take advantage of non-union workers?

[Godsmack 361]

Lithium, I know you're a MUCH smarter than average guy. I probably could have been more gentle in the way you asked your questions but I was making a point. I have a TON of personal history on both sides of the union line. Not once yet have I seen the union help the people who actually do the work. Even when they "help" the employee, 90% of the time it's actually a new way of controlling them, and taking the focus off of the fact that unions are now for political issues and making crap loads of money for people who want to appear giving, and righteous.

my only experience with unions has been what i've heard from my dad. he's kind of an interesting guy in terms of politics, he would probably agree with alot of the opinions made by M5 (socially liberal,fiscal conservative) but less educated haha... besides being an active union member. i cant put a number on it but i would have to say his experience with the union has been a bit more positive then yours. i wont go into details and shit but it seems personal opinions/observations are sometime a bit more subjective.

The liberal media has a way of helping young undecideds lean the wrong way.

i think the problem is that the media is complete shit and most young people dont educate themselves.

but like i said my view of unions has mostly been in favor of them due to my dad's relatively positive experience.

i think alot of support is based on the past success of unions. they now tend to assume that they need to exist in order keep a balance. so i guess the debate is whether or not cooperations would/do take advantage of non-union workers?

I will agree the media is complete shit. The learning curve of educating yourself is now much different than it used to be. There are so many different ways of obtaining knowledge on politics and finding your beliefs it has become obsurd. Its not like it used to be........

J

[Tirefryr 1,742]

I am not a fan of the Unions. I was an IBEW member for 6 years. During those 6 years, I watched new people come in and bust their ass for 3 months to get into the union. Once in, they turned to shit. They did what they needed to do to keep their job and nothing more. The good productive worked quickly turned into the dragging anchor. I saw this too many times. They also didn't honor several parts of my contract and while I could have sued them, it just wasn't worth the effort. I was also screwed by them causing me to lose my job. I was sick for several months. I had all my medical papers, doctor's notes, etc. They were presented in a timely manner to my supervisor, but guess what, he never turned them in to HR, so guess who lost their job. WHen I presented all this at the grievance meeting the supervisor denied that I ever gave him any paper work. HE did this because we once got into a massive argument and he disliked me since then, so he was out to get me. I was young and not wise enough to have him sign the paperwork. Needless to say, it was a lesson for me, but has left a bad taste in my mouth for unions.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

Another case is the picketers. We have construction going on across from one of my stores. The local union is out there picketing as the main contractor is non-union. Now there are 5-10 guys out there at a time getting paid money to hold up a sign bitching about non-union work, while there are thousands of people out of work who would jump at the opportunity to work on that site.

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

Refer to Table 1 on this page:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

that being said, the Republicans whining and bitching and moaning about how they would block any and all legislation unless they got their 3% tax cut was a douche move

There is no reason I should be a target for a more than 10% increase in taxes. I am not in a bracket that can accept that sort of hit.

You mean you only made ~27k last year?

[///M5 2,833]

Lithium, I know you're a MUCH smarter than average guy. I probably could have been more gentle in the way you asked your questions but I was making a point. I have a TON of personal history on both sides of the union line. Not once yet have I seen the union help the people who actually do the work. Even when they "help" the employee, 90% of the time it's actually a new way of controlling them, and taking the focus off of the fact that unions are now for political issues and making crap loads of money for people who want to appear giving, and righteous.

my only experience with unions has been what i've heard from my dad. he's kind of an interesting guy in terms of politics, he would probably agree with alot of the opinions made by M5 (socially liberal,fiscal conservative) but less educated haha... besides being an active union member. i cant put a number on it but i would have to say his experience with the union has been a bit more positive then yours. i wont go into details and shit but it seems personal opinions/observations are sometime a bit more subjective.

The liberal media has a way of helping young undecideds lean the wrong way.

i think the problem is that the media is complete shit and most young people dont educate themselves.

but like i said my view of unions has mostly been in favor of them due to my dad's relatively positive experience.

i think alot of support is based on the past success of unions. they now tend to assume that they need to exist in order keep a balance. so i guess the debate is whether or not cooperations would/do take advantage of non-union workers?

I would question your dad's positive experience, not to him per se, but in reality if it is a positive experience it is because he was getting paid above his level. That NEVER makes sense. You think the UAW workers that are getting nearly 6 digits for barely lifting a finger have ANYTHING bad to say about the unions? Then realize that those unions exclusively have destroyed the American automobile manufacturers. Without them we would not see so many imports, not even close. Government subsidies are also whacked and similar. Look at how many dairy farms there are in CA where it is extremely inefficient to grow dairy cows. Thank price fixing for that.

[///M5 2,833]

Refer to Table 1 on this page:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

that being said, the Republicans whining and bitching and moaning about how they would block any and all legislation unless they got their 3% tax cut was a douche move

There is no reason I should be a target for a more than 10% increase in taxes. I am not in a bracket that can accept that sort of hit.

You mean you only made ~27k last year?

Ha, never said it was only Federal. State here is full of liberal nonsense called Mark Dayton. Perhaps the biggest tool EVAR!

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

Oh, I was merely referring to federal level Bush tax cuts. Sucks to live in Minnesoooota, eh?

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

Fuck it, you know what? Let's go back to the Tax Act of '84

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/02/28/video-twin-small-block-v8-priaprism-is-enviable-hedonism/

Well now this is just ridiculous...

[dem beats 1,223]

Just a clarification on my personal story as well. I didn't come from a terribly nice neighborhood either. I paid for my cars, my insurance, my clothes, my entertainment, and my college. I had encouragement, but not funding.

Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like you were a spoiled rich kid. More your current neighborhood vs my old neighborhood and how drastic the economic differences are despite geographical proximity.

[dem beats 1,223]

i enjoy your stories, you've had a very interesting life, so far haha. you make a good point. i wonder if the "carrot" has to be or ought to be money by itself? i dont find myself very motivated to chase after money. should we consider creating other "carrots" to motivate people? im not too sure what they would be...

I used carrot and not money as an example. Even in my case it isn't really just money, in fact, that is just a subset.

I think at the end of the day or the end of someones life money is stupid and worthless. We care about our families and our basic interests. However in a situation where you have the chance to take 2 jobs. They are equal in every thing that matters to you. Both please you the same, but one of them pays you an crap load more.... I doubt you would turn down the job that paid you more.

That was my point. The unfortunate families that were making use of the system had no education nor pride to stop and think about what was going on. They had no problem with accepting free money and then hiding the rest because they were told it was their entitlement.

"They deserved to live a good life too. I mean why should someone who already has it easy be the only one who can buy a nice car. That's not fair to you is it?"

I think you guys know that I don't find money itself to be the only motivating factor for any decision, however it is how we are controlled on a day to day basis. You can't fall in love with money, you can't eat it, as I don't have any money in cash and only little numbers in a bank account I can't even burn it to keep me warm. It is however used in trade for all of those things. And when dealing with the HUGE general majority who haven't learned any better their carrot is $$$.

[dem beats 1,223]

I relaly hope I didn't come off heated in this topic. I just have passion.... that's all.

"I have plenty of Liberal, lefty communist traitor friends."

If you study economy, and money and hwo it works it boils down to a verry simple way of assigning value so that you can be taxed. It has however also allowed for an increase in trade. It's hard to find a standard of how many sheep it takes to buy one BMW without using money as a common denominator. I took a lot of basic courses on money and how it changed over time etc etc, but it all boils down to a simple was to place value on things and then tax them.

Most people even trade time for money when they work. It's an imaginary value set up by supply and demand, and we are willing to trade hours we could spend with our families for that little coin. It's not a romantic idea, but it is the world we live in. I don't see anything that would work better. And ultimately the best thing a government can do is let that ebb and flow of money do it's own thing. When the natural course is diveated via subsity, or otherwise, it's just effing with nature and in the end will break the system.

[///M5 2,833]

I'd trade money for time to ride on the snowmobile Going to on Friday even.